Metro Jacksonville

Courage is to say it like it is.

This is all the media has been able to muster until now:

QuoteQ. How could state taxpayers be protected from cost overruns?

A. Rail advocates comprised of local and Washington elected officials are expected to include in their plan legal language in contracts between the newly formed administrative agency and a winning consortium to ensure the project is privatized with Florida taxpayers facing no liabilities.

Winning bidder provide a "surety bond," guaranteeing an insurer would pay for any failure by a private operator. The federal government also could take over as operator if the system failed.

Thus far, Scott has said he is unconvinced state taxpayers would not be on the hook regardless of the plan.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2011/feb/24/241052/scotts-rail-decision-highlights-conflicting-assump/news-breaking/

Now the media is hiding behind Nelson in calling Scott the LIER that he is ( as if the media couldn't have figured out that Scott was lying!!!!!):

QuoteNelson: Scott’s high-speed argument is ‘pitiful’ and ‘untrue’

Uncategorized â€" posted by aaron deslatte on February, 24 2011 4:51 PM Discuss This: Comments(4) | Add to del.icio.us | Digg it
TALLAHASSEE â€" U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson has penned a lengthy, and scathing, criticism of Gov. Rick Scott now that it’s apparent the Republican governor is determined to block a $2.7 billion high-speed rail project connecting Orlando and Tampa.

The Democratic U.S. senator has tried to sound positive for the last week while rail supporters were hopeful the governor could be convinced to change course. But negotiators trying to persuade Scott conceded defeat Thursday after the governor’s office rejected a proposed agreement structured to absolve the state of any liability for cost overruns, ridership dips or project failure.

“I am disappointed and â€" quite frankly â€" think it pitiful that Scott would turn down $2.4 billion in allocated funding for high-speed rail in the nation’s fourth largest state.  Such a decision will cost Florida 24,000 new jobs and will obstruct economic growth along the I-4 corridor, and eventually all the way from Orlando to Miami,” Nelson wrote.

“For the past week, Scott has cited so-called economic realities that led him to first turn down the money. He claimed Florida taxpayers would be on the hook for possible cost overruns.  He claimed that ridership and revenue projections were overly optimistic.  He claimed the state would have to repay the federal government all of the $2.4 billion, if the project faltered.

“His claims were hasty and ill-informed when he first announced his decision a week ago.  Today, they’re untrue.”

UPDATE: Scott spokesman Brian Hughes said it was unfortunate Nelson was now throwing stones. “It’s a shame that Sen. Nelson has decided to turn what had been a cordial and civil policy-oriented discussion into some attempt to score cheap political points.”

Here’s the whole letter:

In one of his most challenging moments, President John F. Kennedy was honest and straightforward in conceding he had erred.  When speaking to reporters after the Bay of Pigs, he shared a wise man’s quote.

‘An error does not become a mistake â€" until you refuse to correct it.’

Last Wednesday, Gov. Rick Scott made an error in rejecting high-speed rail.  Now, it looks like he’s making a monumental mistake, saying he remains unconvinced there’s no risk to taxpayers.  And, I think, the governor in rejecting the project may even be exceeding his constitutional authority.

I am disappointed and â€" quite frankly â€" think it pitiful that Scott would turn down $2.4 billion in allocated funding for high-speed rail in the nation’s fourth largest state.  Such a decision will cost Florida 24,000 new jobs and will obstruct economic growth along the I-4 corridor, and eventually all the way from Orlando to Miami.

For the past week, Scott has cited so-called economic realities that led him to first turn down the money. He claimed Florida taxpayers would be on the hook for possible cost overruns.  He claimed that ridership and revenue projections were overly optimistic.  He claimed the state would have to repay the federal government all of the $2.4 billion, if the project faltered.

His claims were hasty and ill-informed when he first announced his decision a week ago.  Today, they’re untrue.

A bi-partisan group from Florida’s congressional delegation has spent the past week working with U.S. Department of Transportation officials and representatives of the cities of Orlando, Tampa, Lakeland and Miami, to painstakingly address all of Scott’s concerns.

They came up with a detailed plan that removed any financial burdens from the state and taxpayers and placed them into the hands of private companies.

Under this plan, Florida would accept the $2.4 billion federal grant. The state would transfer the money over to a new legal entity made up of city officials from along the first leg of the route between Orlando and Tampa.  This new entity, called the Florida Regional High Speed Rail Commission, would then enter into a contract with the private companies that would design, build, operate, maintain and finance the rest of the operation.

Furthermore, these private entities would be the ones to face financial repercussions if the system ever faltered.  In other words, there would be no financial risk to Florida taxpayers.

The governor’s determination to reject the money anyway â€" not once, but twice â€" leads me to believe it is, at least in part, politically motivated.  Last week, he called the high-speed rail project “Obama-rail,” putting partisan labels where they don’t belong.

High-speed rail is not a partisan issue. It is an economic opportunity for Florida.  It is a way to fortify our state’s transportation network and foster growth.

More importantly, given the hard times we’re all facing, it was a chance to bring thousands of new jobs to Florida â€" 24,000 of them to be more specific.

In sticking with his rejection, Scott is sending the $2.4 billion and 24,000 jobs right to other states.  Our money and jobs will end up in California, New York or Rhode Island.  These states have been clamoring for help with their high-speed rail projects.

Thanks to Gov. Scott, it looks like they’ll be getting a check in the mail.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2011/02/nelson-scotts-final-high-speed-drop-kick-is-pitiful.html

QuoteThe main state senator talking with Scott’s representatives about the train â€" David Simmons, R-Altamonte Springs â€" gave up his efforts Thursday to get Scott to back off.

But he’s not tipping his hand yet whether legislators will sue Scott. Simmons said he was convinced that the proposal offered to Scott by train backers would have unequivocally taken the state off the hook for any future liability.

“In so doing they created a system by which private enterprise and the free market would take all risks regarding the project,” he said. “I applaud the cities for the work that they have done, and I am disappointed that such an excellent plan, that would have been based upon free enterprise principles was disapproved.”

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/critics-blast-scott-over-high-speed-train-1279972.html?page=2

QuoteState Sen. Thad Altman, R-Melbourne, said Thursday he asked U.S. transportation secretary Ray LaHood to give Florida even more time to challenge Scott on state constitutional grounds for the governor's "unilateral rejection."

"Clearly I believe Scott is operating beyond his executive authority," said Altman who has worked on highâ€"speed rail issues for 26 years since his days as a Space Coast county commissioner.

"I'm not completely sure what can be done," said Altman, one of 26 state senators who sought extra time in a letter to LaHood last week. "I'm a conservative Republican and a strict constitutionalist. I want to make sure our constitution is in place."

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2011/feb/24/242048/scott-rejects-plan-meant-to-save-high-speed-rail/news-breaking/

QuoteLast Wednesday, Gov. Rick Scott made an error in rejecting high-speed rail.  Now, it looks like he’s making a monumental mistake, saying he remains unconvinced there’s no risk to taxpayers.  And, I think, the governor in rejecting the project may even be exceeding his constitutional authority

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2011/02/nelson-scotts-final-high-speed-drop-kick-is-pitiful.html

Quote“I believe that he exceeded his executive authority and in a very strong sense we have a Constitutional crisis on our hands,” Altman said.

Senate Republican leader Andy Gardiner acknowledged there are concerns about the “parameters” of the governor’s use of his executive power.

He did not reject the possibility that a fellow caucus member would have a legitimate basis for suing the Republican governor. Altman noted that the Legislature voted to accept the federal money and build high-speed rail in a special session.

“We have a law on the books,” he said, and quoted the portion of the Florida Constitution that reads: “The Governor shall take care that the laws of Florida are faithfully executed.”



Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/24/2084241/gov-rick-scott-rejects-high-speed.html##ixzz1EwmyTmZR

One man with the power of a dictator, the kind of dictators we despise in the middle east!

QuoteHigh-speed rail in Florida, despite bipartisan support and millions of state and private dollars already invested in it, turned out to be surprisingly easy for Gov. Rick Scott to kill. All he had to say was no.

He didn't even have to offer much of an explanation beyond that he thinks it's a boondoggle, a term popularized in the Great Depression to criticize government make-work projects.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2011/feb/25/MEOPINO1-high-speed-rail-proved-fragile/

 ::)

QuoteOne man with the power of a dictator, the kind of dictators we despise in the middle east!

You elected him Faye...

I will be very impressed if the legislature and the Republicans in particular follow through on this.  Even if they fail I will sing their praises for trying.

don't think you can pin this one on Faye...on Democrats who stayed home on Electioon Day, maybe

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 25, 2011, 07:57:03 AM
don't think you can pin this one on Faye...on Democrats who stayed home on Electioon Day, maybe

You and I know that Tufsu... It is for those who do not understand what a dictator is...

one thing Scott has done is weakened his own agenda...it will be very difficult for him to get some ideas through the Legislature this year

Guess it all depends on your prospective... As a railroad professional that see's our HSR project as a disaster waiting to happen, and among the American Railroad Industry in general, Scott comes out the hero.

THANK GOD (and Scott) he stopped this nonsense.

Yeah, maybe it set us back 10 years, maybe it sent away a one time pile of cash, and at the same time it gives us a chance to look it over and decide WHY IT WASN'T IN THE TOP 100 HSR PLANS in America!

Really, I can't figure out how people that can recite why the Outer Beltway will do not-much-to-nothing for Blanding Boulevard, but can't see how a railroad that misses the target just as badly is somehow going to be a magic bullet. More like a bullet to the head.

Meanwhile there is a lot of calling Scott a liar... I guess that makes me one too? Go figure! Ridership crash? We were headed straight for it. System failure? Heading straight for it. Ask ANYONE that doesn't have their hand in the projects pocket... YOU DON'T BUILD HSR in obvious commuter train territory, you build it in the 200-600
mile stages. Please don't muddy this up with the "But it WAS going to come to Jacksonville, and Miami, and Ocala, and ....  PHASE II? There would never have been a phase II if this thing got built, not here, not anywhere in the USA. LOOK AT THE RECORD, then go downtown and catch the Skyway to Shand's, or Riverside, or San Marco... REMEMBER THE BANNER ON THE SKYWAY? "We're going to the stadium..." Same railroad different address. Thank God it's dead under his watch, lets regroup and come up with a plan that makes sense over the long haul.

High Speed Rail is good - The Florida Plan was horrible and would guarantee the failure of the concept nationwide.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, this is much larger than a debate about what corridor is best for a little rail segment between Tampa and Orlando.  The major damage is we're taking a path that's going to make it more difficult to get things (not just in the mass transit arena) done between the state and federal government.  Unless, we're willing to fund things 100% with local dollars, then we really need the state and federal government to have a great working relationship to help assist in projects critical to our local economy.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 25, 2011, 07:58:47 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 25, 2011, 07:57:03 AM
don't think you can pin this one on Faye...on Democrats who stayed home on Electioon Day, maybe

You and I know that Tufsu... It is for those who do not understand what a dictator is...

QuoteDespite the obvious benefits of freedom, openness and democratic rule, the masses fall easy prey to lies and threats of public disorder by the ruling elite.

Guess what country the author is talking about? Could it be the US..............where the irrational fear of deficits met by Republicans cutting taxes for the ultra-rich, and cutting taxes for corporations actually creates budget deficits (Wisconsin)? Fear and Lies, Fear and Lies........are the perfect ingredients for, wait for it...............an elected dictatorship!!!!!!

I guess you yourself haven't ever lived in a country with a dictatorship, or even an elected dictatorship until now.

Yes this might be mind boggeling for you, but elected dictatorships actually exist all over the world.

The quote above was taken from an article describing the elected dictatorship in Malaysia, a country where I happen to spend 2 years of my life.

http://www.hrsolidarity.net/mainfile.php/2000vol10no09/708/

I have also lived under other types of dictatorships in Iran, when the American installed Shaw was there. So clearly I KNOW what a dictatorship looks like. Maybe you ought to read up on it. And may I ask, do you have a passport? (only 30% of Americans even have a passport, which makes you wonder where their wisdom even comes from..........like Sara Palin finally using her 2006 acquired passport to travel to India at the ripe old age of uhm 50?)

 :D Get a grip Faye... :D  Have a passport... probably lived in, and visited more countries than you.  Dictatorships should be right up your alley.  No messy elections where the outcome isn't predetermined.  So by your weird definition... is President Obama a dictator?  :D ::)

QuoteAnd may I ask, do you have a passport? (only 30% of Americans even have a passport, which makes you wonder where their wisdom even comes from..........like Sara Palin finally using her 2006 acquired passport to travel to India at the ripe old age of uhm 50?)

Faye, the forum is a vehicle for you to vent your hatred of all things Micah and Scott, but questioning Bridge Troll's credibility only hurts your own argument.  He is one of the most knowledgeable people on the forum, and if you read his other posts you would know that he is well traveled.  To assume you are one of the enlightened few on this forum is the pinnacle of ignorance.

BTW, do you feel like Micah was an elected dictator?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 25, 2011, 01:23:09 PM
:D Get a grip Faye... :D  Have a passport... probably lived in, and visited more countries than you.  Dictatorships should be right up your alley.  No messy elections where the outcome isn't predetermined.  So by your weird definition... is President Obama a dictator?  :D ::)

Sorry, but I'm not convinced.........unless you were military, in which case you were able to see the military base and the local bars (not in the middle east).

Actually Rick Scott called Obama a Dictator on High Speed Rail and other matters:

QuoteTransportation Secretary Ray LaHood rejected Scott’s criticism as “baloney.”

Scott, facing objections from Democrats and fellow Republicans in his state for nixing the planned Tampa-to-Orlando rail line this month, said such projects historically cost more to build than budgeted and lose money once in operation.

“I don’t want our taxpayers to fund that,” Scott said in an interview on Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt,” airing this weekend. He said he didn’t need to review bids from private businesses that said they would cover any potential overruns.

“It was never going to happen,” Scott said, adding that the state would have had to repay the $2.4 billion if the program failed. ( this has been repeatedly refuted by the federal government itself!!!)

LaHood, in an interview at the Bloomberg News Washington bureau, said of Scott, “He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”

“I don’t know of anybody else except for the governor who thinks that this would be a bad deal,” LaHood, a Republican and former member of Congress from Illinois, said later on Bloomberg Television. The project “would have put an enormous number of Floridians to work. It would have helped people that are unemployed. It would have helped the economy. So he’s the lone ranger on this.”

‘What’s Changed?’
Scott, 58, in Washington for a weekend meeting of the National Governors Association, criticized President Barack Obama’s performance, saying he hasn’t shifted toward the center since the November elections cost Democrats control of the House and shrank their Senate majority.

“What’s changed?” Scott said. “We still have ridiculously high taxes. We’re walking into a $1.6 trillion deficit.”

“He should be cutting corporate taxes,” the governor said. “He needs to reduce -- dramatically reduce -- spending.”

Scott, elected last fall with Tea Party support, referred to the high-speed rail project on his Twitter page as “ObamaRail” and “ObamaTrain,” echoing the “Obamacare” nickname opponents have given to the health-care overhaul enacted last year.

The administration is trying to dictate “basically how we run our state,” Scott said in the Bloomberg bureau interview. He also said Florida “can’t afford Obamacare.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-25/florida-s-scott-defends-refusal-of-high-speed-rail-money-criticizes-obama.html

Ah, so he doesn't want any federal help with Medicaid anymore or SCHIP!! To heck with the poor in Florida!!!

As with all southern states heavily loaded with the nation's poor, Florida is a recipient state of federal dollars.

As lakelander said, Scott nixing High Speed rail has broader implications for the state of Florida.

In the case of gas taxes we are actually a donor state, meaning the High Speed Rail funds for once was going to give us back our gas tax dollars. How likely is it now that we will be able to see any of our gas tax dollars come back to the state of Florida, given the adversarial stance of Rick Scott, Florida's newly elected dictator?

 :D

QuoteSorry, but I'm not convinced.........unless you were military, in which case you were able to see the military base and the local bars (not in the middle east).

You poor thing... Have you taken your meds today?  I absolutely was military... though in my job we very frequently did not stay near a base but in rather nice hotels in the middle of (to name but a few) Hong Kong, or Rekyavik, or Singapore, or Dahran S.A. or Manama Bahrain not to mention vacations and trips I took on my own while overseas.  (In Bahrain you can drink at a pub right along with the arabs. ;) )

Speaking of not convinced... an occasional trip to denmark hardly makes YOU a world traveler... But I am well aware of your Euro fetish...

You could make convincing arguments if not for the over the top drama.  You lost the election... YOUR democrats LOST the election that was (for the first time in ages) actually winnable by a democrat...

AND YOU GUYS STAYED HOME!  This is not the republicans fault... it is not rick scotts fault...

IT IS YOUR FAULT!  Your beginning to sound like Garden Guy... ;)

Quote from: stephendare on February 25, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
Faye.

No one is in the business of 'convincing you' of anything in their personal lives, and Bridge Troll certainly doesnt.

I vehemently disagree with many of his opinions, but its egregious to imply that he is lying about his travel.

Ive met him in real life, and he has travelled.  I know that you lived abroad, and the same assumptions about where a privately educated woman abroad would have visited can be made.

Lets move on to the issues and get out of this viper's pit please.

Stephen, if that last sentence is also directed at Bridgetroll with his statement "Have you taken your meds today?" then I fully get your point.

For now I will apologize for my part in this. And of course you are right.......I was privately educated in those countries alongside many state department folks, limiting my experience of life for the locals. Although I will give credit to the Shah for requiring International Schools to be open and free of charge to local folks in Teheran so that 80% of students were actually Iranian. Farsi was more commonly heard at the American International Scool (Iranzamin) than english!!

But let me also say that I was in high quality public schools in the Netherlands, and my 5 children are educated at public schools here in the US.

For some, traveling reinforces "America the Great." For others, it is a learning experience in that it exposes some of the flaws in the American system. There is no system that cannot be improved upon, but the believe in American exceptionalism precludes any possibility of making positive changes. Only regressive changes seem to rule.

QuoteThe high-speed train between Orlando and Tampa got an unexpected one-week reprieve Friday, just hours after Gov. Rick Scott again rejected $2.4 billion in federal money for the project.

The sudden shift may have been triggered by a possible lawsuit against Scott contending he has overstepped his authority by killing the train.

The suit, which could be filed as soon as Monday, is expected to argue that a law passed by the Legislature during a special session in 2009 compels Scott to pursue the train.

Two sources close to the situation said the suit likely would be filed with the state Supreme Court in Tallahassee. It was unclear who would sign on to it.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-high-speed-rail-what-now-20110225,0,7534383.story

YAY for High Speed Rail and for holding governors accountable for over-stepping their constitutional boundaries!!!!

Awesome... though it certainly could not have happened in a dictatorship... ::) ;)

The pressure is going to have to stay on the Governor is looking to kill this if he can.

Quote from: JeffreyS on February 26, 2011, 08:43:53 AM
The pressure is going to have to stay on the Governor is looking to kill this if he can.

Yeah, I wonder if they can get a judge to issue an injunction against Scott to prevent him from turning it down a third time. All indications are that Scott does not want to change his mind ( as in any other dictatorship)

QuoteThe additional time comes as good news to one Republican state senator, Thad Altman of Melbourne, who is considering taking legal action against the governor to save the project.

Altman said he believes Scott violated the Constitutional limits of his executive authority by killing the project after the Legislature had voted to move forward with it.

He said he could not comment on any specifics of a potential lawsuit.

“There’s some activity going on,” said Sen. Jack Latvala, R-St. Petersburg. “There’s some legal research that’s been done. But I’m not sure if a plaintiff has been determined or a law firm that will handle the case has been determined. There are active efforts going to find both.” Latvala said he’s not participating in the lawsuit, but he supports taking drastic steps to bring high-speed rail to Florida.

“If someone else wants to step forward and do it, more power to them,” Latvala said. “It’s a once-in-our-lifetime opportunity to get this train built.”

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/25/2086004_p2/feds-give-more-time-to-high-speed.html##ixzz1F5do5MkW

They have to do something because there is no indication that Scott is even willing to see the facts, as he continues to LIE about them:

QuoteNational Briefing | SOUTH
Florida: Trains Get Second Chance
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: February 25, 2011

The Obama administration on Friday gave Gov. Rick Scott a week to reconsider his opposition to a revised proposal for high-speed trains between Tampa and Orlando, but the Republican kept up his criticism of the project. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood offered the reprieve after meeting with Mr. Scott in Washington. At stake is $2.4 billion that the government would take back if Mr. Scott rejects the project. Mr. LaHood said the governor asked for more information and said he would make a final decision next week.

If Florida rejects the money, it would be reallocated to one or more other states seeking high-speed rail funds, including California, New York and Rhode Island.

“I believe high-speed rail is a federal boondoggle, as I said more than a week ago,” Mr. Scott said after the meeting. “I communicated to Secretary LaHood that as long as Florida remains on the hook for cost overruns, operating costs and paybacks in the case of default, I will vigorously oppose this project.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/us/26brfs-TRAINSGETSEC_BRF.html

Scott's lingo remains the same, despite the fact that his "concerns" have all been refuted over and over again.

QuoteKathy Castor, D-Tampa, said in a Friday statement. “The plan we presented the governor met every test he mentioned and is a viable way to make high-speed rail and associated jobs a reality in Florida and not other states. "

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2011/02/25/florida-given-extension-on-high-speed.html

QuoteFriday afternoon, Scott posted this on his Facebook page: "My position on high-speed rail remains unchanged. I believe high-speed rail is a federal boondoggle."

What kind of serious analysis could Scott have given LaHood's information between their morning meeting and his afternoon Facebook doodle?

Not only is Scott a broken record, he is disingenuous.

As state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland outlined in a Friday Ledger op-ed column, "Facts of High-Speed Rail Are Favorable," "The private sector will pay for any cost overruns. This will be a legally binding agreement, with no risk to the taxpayers."

Dockery added that "The private sector will assume all ridership revenue risk" and that "The private sector will assume all risk for long-term operations and maintenance. The U.S. Department of Transportation would oversee the financial viability of the private industry and will hold it responsible financially, not the state of Florida."

Because of his inability to process facts and face the truth about state indemnity, Scott has become irrelevant.

As Dockery and others move ahead, they are pushing Scott aside:

On Thursday, The Miami Herald reported that State Sen. Thad Altman, R-Melbourne, said Scott had exceeded his authority and that Senate Republican leader Andy Gardiner "did not reject the possibility that a fellow caucus member would have a legitimate basis for suing the Republican governor."

On Friday, Dockery requested copies of all documents about an unreleased state high-speed-rail feasibility study.

Scott's main hold on rail is the Florida Department of Transportation's control over the I-4 right-of-way for the train tracks. The DOT reports to Scott.

Assuming sufficient support, the Legislature could pass a law to make the right-of-way available to cities' group.

Let's get to work.

[ Glenn Marston is editorial page editor. E-mail: glenn.marston@thledger.com. Phone 863-802-7600. ]

http://www.theledger.com/article/20110227/COLUMNISTS0308/102275015/1001/business?p=2&tc=pg&tc=ar

Quote from: JeffreyS on February 26, 2011, 08:43:53 AM
The pressure is going to have to stay on the Governor is looking to kill this if he can.

YES!!!!!!

It's happening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QuoteA lawsuit over high-speed rail could be waiting on the desk of Gov. Rick Scott as early as Tuesday. A bipartisan collection of lawmakers said

AND there is a precedent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QuoteA former state lawmaker, Buddy Dyer, recalled when then-Senate President Toni Jennings sued former Gov. Jeb Bush after he tried to eliminate millions of dollars in school funding approved by lawmakers.

Dyer said, "We won that lawsuit so there is some precedent there."

In that case, the State Supreme court ruled that a governor could veto an entire bill but not a portion within that measure.

"It's time to play hardball. It's a tough situation for the legislature but I think at some point in members of his own party, are going to have to stand up, and say that we are an independent branch of government and you're going to respect us."
- State Rep. Scott Randolph, D-Orlando


Sources told WESH 2 News the lawsuit could point to the bill authorizing high-speed rail and Sunrail in December 2009 and signed by then-Gov. Charlie Crist and make the claim no governor has the authority to reject portions of that bill.

http://www.wesh.com/news/27027956/detail.html

Might as well just drop a suit on him and let the courts decide.

3 mayors can't convince Scott to take high-speed rail money

QuoteScott's refusal could set the stage for the filing of a lawsuit against the governor by state Sens. Thad Altman, R-Melbourne, and Arthenia Joiner, D-Tampa, in the Florida Supreme Court in Tallahassee today.

The senators are expected to argue that Scott is bound by a law passed during a 2009 special session of the Legislature to accept the federal money and build the train, which would be capable of speeds up to 168 mph.

full article: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-high-speed-rail-lawsuit-20110301,0,3305558.story

Quote from: thelakelander on March 01, 2011, 12:16:14 PM
Might as well just drop a suit on him and let the courts decide.

3 mayors can't convince Scott to take high-speed rail money

QuoteScott's refusal could set the stage for the filing of a lawsuit against the governor by state Sens. Thad Altman, R-Melbourne, and Arthenia Joiner, D-Tampa, in the Florida Supreme Court in Tallahassee today.

The senators are expected to argue that Scott is bound by a law passed during a 2009 special session of the Legislature to accept the federal money and build the train, which would be capable of speeds up to 168 mph.

full article: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-high-speed-rail-lawsuit-20110301,0,3305558.story

So true!!

The sooner a judge issues a writ of mandamus to Scott, the sooner we can stop this folly!!

Does Scott realize that the Hawaii High Speed Rail is only funded by the federal government for 25%? We should be so thrilled that the federal government sprung for 90% of Florida's High Speed Rail funding, and that private companies are willing to cover the other 10%!!

Quote
It's one thing to look a gift horse in the mouth. It's quite another thing to slaughter a gift horse and send its disemboweled corpse back to Washington.

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/16/floridas-rick-scott-sends-high-speed-rail-packing/

Nah, Scott is too worried HSR rail might be a success, and that's not what he wants for Obama. To heck with what Florida needs, or where our country should be moving to: innovation.

Yay, it happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QuoteRick Scott from killing high-speed rail. The suit asks the Florida Supreme Court to order Scott to "expeditiously accept" $2.4 billion in federal money

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/sens-joyner-altman-sue-gov-rick-scott-over-high-speed-rail/1154516

Nelson ask for another weeks extension.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-dixon/2011-03-01/fast-rail-lawsuit-filed-bill-nelson-asks-feds-more-time

It's scary to think how quickly our Florida representatives can cross the aisle to file lawsuits (HSR Suit & Re-districting Suit) yet on 99% of other legislation they are working against each other.   It makes me hesitant to believe they are doing it in the best interests of the State and more for their political interests. 

It's no secret that I agree with Ock's opinion that this project isn't the right project to be pushed so hard for.  I think a focus on getting Florida's major cities up to speed on local light rail first, then work on connecting them would benefit Floridians more.  I understand that this money couldn't be used for that, but in the 20 years that they have been pushing for HSR it would seem they should have developed a more sound plan.  At this point it's just lets get something done to say we did something in my opinion.

It's also scary to me that we have to say Yes to anything the Federal Govt. thinks is a good idea or we won't get any more projects done with their help. 

This project may look better to us after the private sector has it's input.  We would have most likely had the RFP given out if not for this Delay by the governor.  I agree HSR is not the type of passanger rail I would like to have started with and agree with you that at some point we have to get something done.

Quote from: Gators312 on March 01, 2011, 05:28:20 PM
It's scary to think how quickly our Florida representatives can cross the aisle to file lawsuits (HSR Suit & Re-districting Suit) yet on 99% of other legislation they are working against each other.   It makes me hesitant to believe they are doing it in the best interests of the State and more for their political interests.

True.  However, its even more scarier to think that something that has been through years of planning and on the verge of construction can just disappear, due to one guy being against the concept in general, without any facts to back him up.

QuoteIt's no secret that I agree with Ock's opinion that this project isn't the right project to be pushed so hard for.  I think a focus on getting Florida's major cities up to speed on local light rail first, then work on connecting them would benefit Floridians more.  I understand that this money couldn't be used for that, but in the 20 years that they have been pushing for HSR it would seem they should have developed a more sound plan.  At this point it's just lets get something done to say we did something in my opinion.

The only major city not agressively making plans to improve their local transit options is Jacksonville (although JTA is pushing for BRT).  Tampa and Orlando both plan to have local mass transit spines connected with their HSR terminals by the time HSR is operational in 2015.  Miami is already extending metrorail to connect with their terminal (already under construction) and the airport.

QuoteIt's also scary to me that we have to say Yes to anything the Federal Govt. thinks is a good idea or we won't get any more projects done with their help.

It's not that we have to say yes.  It's more about saying no the right way if you don't think the project is feasible.  For example, if Rick Scott has some real factual data to back him up or the bidding process came back unsuccessful, pulling the plug would make sense to all involved.  At this point, we don't really know anything about the project.  For all we know, significant modifications could come as a result of the bidding process and the price to construct could be cheaper than currently estimated.  

The Governors response to the lawsuit filed by the FL State Senators.

https://acrobat.com/app.html#d=*z**poB5L*wlEer5BQZfug

i predict the court will honor part of the money 1.6 fed, 130 mil. state if it goes that way they would have to redesign it like with i-4 and csx combine

Quote from: fsujax on March 02, 2011, 03:04:41 PM
The Governors response to the lawsuit filed by the FL State Senators.

https://acrobat.com/app.html#d=*z**poB5L*wlEer5BQZfug

To tell the truth, I still don't understand Rick Scott's line of thinking on this.  Where is he getting the idea that the $2.4 billion federal HSR grant can be used for ports in Jacksonville and Miami and widening I-95, I-4, I-395 and I-275?  None of this is revelent because the grant is specifically dedicated to HSR projects.  I also find it funny that someone could mention highway widening as being more sustainable.

Anyway, from looking at the 29 page response, it appears on day one he had all intentions to kill the project and no amount of logic from the opposite side would change his mind.

Quote from: yapp1850 on March 02, 2011, 03:19:25 PM
i predict the court will honor part of the money 1.6 fed, 130 mil. state if it goes that way they would have to redesign it like with i-4 and csx combine

nice try....but the Court isn't going to force anyone to do a redesign

I expect them to rule only on whether the Governor has violated the separation of powers and constitutional authority....

that said, but they might throw a zinger in there regarding "his protection of the taxpayers of Florida"...I think I figured out his semantics are a veiled way of saying he is protecting Florida taxpayers from the Federal government....but that isn't his responsibility.

Now Mica speaks again.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-dixon/2011-03-02/mica-high-speed-rail-im-referee-food-fight

Quote from: thelakelander on March 01, 2011, 06:04:42 PM
The only major city not agressively making plans to improve their local transit options is Jacksonville (although JTA is pushing for BRT).  Tampa and Orlando both plan to have local mass transit spines connected with their HSR terminals by the time HSR is operational in 2015.  Miami is already extending metrorail to connect with their terminal (already under construction) and the airport.

I agree with you to some extent, but I think Jacksonville is not doing things agressively because Jacksonville won't be getting high speed rail for at least 15 years. I would love to see light rail in Jacksonville before then but that might be the driving force for us to get it.

Marvin HSR is not where Jacksonville should be aggressive. Commuter rail and streetcar are taylor made for this city and it's existing rail infrastructure.

If Rick Scott continues down this path of his, commuter rail and streetcar are going to be more financially difficult to pull off, since they may have to end up being 100% locally funded.

I just hope we can get DT bustling before I'm too old to enjoy it.

Quote from: JeffreyS on March 02, 2011, 04:23:04 PM
Marvin HSR is not where Jacksonville should be aggressive. Commuter rail and streetcar are taylor made for this city and it's existing rail infrastructure.

I know I was saying we weren't being agressive with light rail beacuse that's what lake said. But I agree with you. Even though I would love streetcars in the urban core, I don't undertsand why we would not try to extend the skyway. I think if streetcars came , the skyway would kind of be a waste.

Listen to Mica's interview and he mentions the FEC line as well as Sunrail.
http://daytonasun.com/index2.php?option=com_k2&view=item&task=download&id=117 (http://daytonasun.com/index2.php?option=com_k2&view=item&task=download&id=117)

Quote from: iMarvin on March 02, 2011, 04:34:42 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on March 02, 2011, 04:23:04 PM
Marvin HSR is not where Jacksonville should be aggressive. Commuter rail and streetcar are taylor made for this city and it's existing rail infrastructure.

I know I was saying we weren't being agressive with light rail beacuse that's what lake said. But I agree with you. Even though I would love streetcars in the urban core, I don't undertsand why we would not try to extend the skyway. I think if streetcars came , the skyway would kind of be a waste.

Riverside or Springfeild streetcar could compliment the Skyway and help drive the skyway's logical expansion to SanMarco. Muti-Model is the ticket.

Quote from: JeffreyS on March 02, 2011, 04:52:05 PM

Quote from: iMarvin on March 02, 2011, 04:34:42 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on March 02, 2011, 04:23:04 PM
Marvin HSR is not where Jacksonville should be aggressive. Commuter rail and streetcar are taylor made for this city and it's existing rail infrastructure.

I know I was saying we weren't being agressive with light rail beacuse that's what lake said. But I agree with you. Even though I would love streetcars in the urban core, I don't undertsand why we would not try to extend the skyway. I think if streetcars came , the skyway would kind of be a waste.

Riverside or Springfeild streetcar could compliment the Skyway and help drive the skyway's logical expansion to SanMarco. Muti-Model is the ticket.

I guess that makes sense.

Quote from: fsujax on March 02, 2011, 04:10:51 PM
Now Mica speaks again.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-dixon/2011-03-02/mica-high-speed-rail-im-referee-food-fight

and as crazy as ever!

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 02, 2011, 05:40:18 PM

Quote from: fsujax on March 02, 2011, 04:10:51 PM
Now Mica speaks again.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-dixon/2011-03-02/mica-high-speed-rail-im-referee-food-fight


He said that he always thought the plan to do high-speed rail from Tampa to Orlando was a "dog." Last week Mica pushed a plan to just build high-speed rail from the Orlando airport to that city's tourist areas

and as crazy as ever!

Ummm.....maybe I am missing something, but Mica's alternate plan is just dumb.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 02, 2011, 05:40:18 PM

Quote from: fsujax on March 02, 2011, 04:10:51 PM
Now Mica speaks again.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/matt-dixon/2011-03-02/mica-high-speed-rail-im-referee-food-fight

and as crazy as ever!

So which part of his statement is "crazy" TU? The warning that Congress could (AND SHOULD) yank some of the funds and give it to projects that actually make sense for the residents living along the routes of those projects?

Maybe it is the part where he said Orlando-Tampa is a dog of a route for High Speed Rail, a route which BTW didn't even rank in the top 100 potential HSR proposals?

I think you might even be referring to the bone he is tossing the completely insane Florida Plan, and offering to hand out some money for an Orlando Airport - Tourist Trap - Mickey Route, which in 30 miles or so, will serve everyone they claim they are building HSR for in the first place? Is that crazy?

Wouldn't it be crazier if he would have said, "Don't worry, I'm making sure that Florida gets all the money it can waste on this project." Crazy because he really believes, "it is going to take traffic off of I-4, stop sprawl, clean up our air, and make Florida more attractive to millions of people who if they move here, couldn't use the train for anything anyway!"

Crazier if he told President Obama, and Congress, and Rick Scott that this is the best darn rail project in the nation, and deserves to be built end to end because lots of those airplanes and pine trees at OIA need a better way to get to Fantasy Land!

Really crazy if he told the House that the keen relationship between students at USF in Polk County, have a dire need to get to Disney, and that EVERYONE going from Tampa or Lakeland to Orlando takes the Beach Line over to the Airport in Orlando to park... so they can WALK to downtown.

I do disagree with Mica one one thing though, this plan is not a "dog," it's worse then that. Just remember this should all of you get your wish that somehow, by hook or crook, we go over or around Scott and build this railroad. It will be the first AND LAST high speed rail line built in the USA in our lifetimes... but hey, it's free money!

Why should we care... remember private industry wants to go broke over this thing and now we're complaining that they won't even have the chance. Two big things wrong with this picture:

One the loophole is already in place to allow ANY private company to bail and leave Florida holding the bag, that loophole is found in the application, EIS and other doccuments pretaining to the proposal which are chock full of half truths and outright lies.

So what if they DID get to build it right along the plan Florida has laid out and it fails so big that they are looking for a way out? Tell me people, what is this going to do to further High Speed Rail, Passenger Rail, Commuter Rail, Amtrak or for that matter Streetcars in this country?

OCKLAWAHA

I disagree with the concept of yanking HSR funds for Florida's local projects.  If our localized issues are so important to us, we should first make an effort to get them started at a local level before openly bashing the feds and then immediately asking them for handouts.  Btw, I think the route's current corridor plan and how Rick Scott should kill it (since that's his desire) are two completely different issues.  The way he's handling this and Sunrail are nothing but negatives anyway you look at it, as far as future federal/state funding assistance will assist local projects going forward.  If things don't change, we could be easily looking at least a decade long delay on the implementation of many projects we've advocated here.

Interesting:

QuoteEvidence eludes Scott on high-speed rail

On Tuesday, Rick Scott said he’s “yet to see any evidence that Florida taxpayers would not be on the hook” for the cost of the proposed high-speed rail line linking Orlando and Tampa.

Then, on Wednesday â€" the day the governor contested a state Supreme Court lawsuit seeking to compel him to accept federal money to build the fast train â€" Scott said on TV that he still fears Florida would have to pay Washington back for its investment in the project if it fails.

But Orlando Sentinel reporter Dan Tracy also reports today that John Porcari, deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation, sent a letter dated Feb. 28 to the mayors of Orlando, Tampa and Lakeland, promising Washington won’t seek reimbursement of its $2.4 in grants. Tracy reports Porcari also wrote that in light of Orlando, Tampa and Lakeland offering to take responsibility for the rail line, the Federal Rail Administration “will make clear in any future cooperative agreements for the Tampa-Orlando project that the state of Florida does not bear any financial responsibility for the reimbursement obligation.”

Some might consider that evidence that the state won’t be on the hook for high-speed rail’s costs.

But not Rick Scott.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/orlando_opinionators/2011/03/evidence-eludes-scott-on-high-speed-rail.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+orlandosentinel%2Forlando_opinionators+%28Orlando+Opinionators%29

Another update released.  I give the leaders of Lakeland, Tampa, Orlando and Miami credit.  They are at least fighting to the end for what would be a major economic benefit for their communities.

QuoteMayors of Lakeland, Tampa, Orlando and Miami to Speak on High-Speed Rail Fight

Scott has cited that risk as the reason he won't accept a $2.4 billion federal grant that would go toward building the rail line, which is planned to run down the median of Interstate 4.

The mayors' action comes after they received a letter from federal transportation officials.

In that letter to Fields and the mayors of Tampa, Orlando and Miami, the federal officials said state won't be on the hook for the $2.4 billion in stimulus money if the private company running the train scraps the project.

"In light of the cities' recent proposal, FRA (federal railroad administration) will make clear in any future cooperative agreements for the Tampa-Orlando project that the State of Florida does not bear any financial responsibility for this reimbursement obligation," wrote John Porcari, the transportaion authority's deputy secretary, on Feb. 28.

Scott has said he doesn't want the state to be on the hook for billions of dollars if the project doesn't work.

Porcari writes the state won't be liable.

"We will work further with the Interlocal Entity with respect to any reimbursement obligations, with the full understanding that the cities establishing the Interlocal Entity will also have no responsibility for such reimbursement payments."

full article: http://www.theledger.com/article/20110302/NEWS/110309933/1410?Title=Mayors-of-Lakeland-Tampa-Orlando-and-Miami-to-Speak-on-High-Speed-Rail-Fight

Looks to me like we have a choice between the lies that are the basis for the HSR project, which if accepted might well bring down the house on ALL HSR PROJECTS, and the lies that are evident whenever Scott's lips are moving. I agree that Scott's opinion of rail and mass transit in general are primitive at best, and criminal at worst, but I still don't see how anything he does in the HSR arena is going to have much impact on local, current or future projects that are not connected to flying trains. Florida HIGH SPEED RAIL should NOT BE BUILT, to do so simply arms the anti-rail side with a whole world of new data to throw in the face of every transit supporter in the country - many of which will then be eating a large serving of CROW. This railroad will be far more damaging then anything Scott can effect.

CSX has ridden the shirttail of SUNRAIL in order to build their new "super terminal" multimodal yard in Winter Haven, but killing that WORTHY project won't really stop them. Fact is the Florida East Coast and Norfolk Southern opened their own super facility in Titusville in 2009 to serve Central Florida, and CSX is feeling the heat. Yeah, they'd LOVE for the Florida or federal tax payer to pay for it, but if that's not possible, they will have to do it the same way the FEC-NS did... PAY FOR IT.

CSX is attempting to hold the JAXPORT cut-off in a similar "we need the money," lurch, but that too will not hold for long. They can continue to operate across town for the next 100 years and if Jacksonville was really out to save jobs and build our economy, there would be solutions BESIDES rebuilding the old Gross Cut-Off from Gross to Callahan. How about improving the Trout River Bridge situation? We already allowed them to rip up one of the two bridges that crossed the river from Panama Park to the Northside, and the other is pretty antiquated. West Jax Yard was closed completely and Moncrief has been down graded several times in the last 40 years, this is fixable if a creative mayor sat down with the railroad as asked how we can keep those jobs here.

Contrary to what many people have written here, that "CSX considers us small potatoes" and won't jump to serve JAXPORT, CSX KNOWS HOW GOOD THEY HAVE IT, AND THEY WANT MORE! We have already given them the moon and stars with a lock on our port... how fast do you think they'd move if the City-NS-FEC pushed for a north side belt line? Let's see, a million containers or more a year? It's a no brainer, but we need a leader.

OCKLAWAHA

This suit will be over by Friday and a few things are very apparent:

1. This money will go to other states if we don't accept it for HSR. So the side argument about the ports and highways being better investments for the money should end.

2. Scott claims he's afraid the state would be on the hook if it failed and the USDOT has confirmed that it would not.

3. Scott still claims, even if it goes forward, he'll veto anything related to it.

This guy has turned Tallahassee into a circus.

QuoteOral arguments in the case are set for 3 p.m. on Thursday. Both sides have asked the judge to rule by Friday.

That's the deadline U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood set for Florida to determine whether the project can go forward.

After that, the money will go to other states.

LaHood said Wednesday he has received a half dozen letters from governors or senators who want the $2.4 billion that Scott wants to turn down.

"America is ready for high-speed inter-city rail," LaHood said in a speech to the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials. "And the fact that 35 states have accepted the money is proof of it."

full article: http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/gubernatorial/article1154753.ece

Ock, we need all the money we can get, even if we get creative and take advantages of innovative funding mechanisms. the delay won't be CSX.  The delay will come in the form of no state and less federal financial assistance in local projects that we can't afford to do on our own (ex. dredging the river, commuter rail, etc.).  For example, our commuter rail plans are dependent on getting 50% federal and 25% state dollars.  The mobility plan will help provide the local 25% of capital costs.  Take the state and federal dollars out of it and we'll need to find a new way to access the lost 75% in funding.  In that scenario, delay is inevitable. 

Quote from: thelakelander on March 02, 2011, 09:01:19 PM
This suit will be over by Friday and a few things are very apparent:

Quote1. This money will go to other states if we don't accept it for HSR. So the side argument about the ports and highways being better investments for the money should end.

GOOD! Because absolutely none of that money can go for anything BUT HSR, but accepting the money when we have such a bad project is equally wrong. Either way it's a bad deal, but I come down on the side of the railroad industry that says this thing is such a "dog" that it is going to wipe out all prospects of HSR being built again, or expanded in our lifetimes... In that case, better to sit out Scott and try for something a bit more logical later.

Quote2. Scott claims he's afraid the state would be on the hook if it failed and the USDOT has confirmed that it would not.

Maybe not, but SOMEBODY will be when the trains stop rolling, and CSX tenders a bid to pick up the route as a freight mainline for pennies on the dollar. Who pays when the federal government screws the pooch?

Quote3. Scott still claims, even if it goes forward, he'll veto anything related to it.

Could be this guy is a closet railfan? He's certainly be doing the bidding of the industry if he shuts er down.

QuoteThis guy has turned Tallahassee into a circus.

Sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy the clowns.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on March 02, 2011, 09:11:12 PM
Ock, we need all the money we can get, even if we get creative and take advantages of innovative funding mechanisms. the delay won't be CSX.  The delay will come in the form of no state and less federal financial assistance in local projects that we can't afford to do on our own (ex. dredging the river, commuter rail, etc.).  For example, our commuter rail plans are dependent on getting 50% federal and 25% state dollars.  The mobility plan will help provide the local 25% of capital costs.  Take the state and federal dollars out of it and we'll need to find a new way to access the lost 75% in funding.  In that scenario, delay is inevitable. 

The federal DOT will not punish Florida localities for Scott's actions, but as long as Scott is in Tally, no amount of Federal money is going to get sent through FDOT for local transit projects. But that's WITH or WITHOUT HSR, Scott doesn't believe in transit of any kind.

If the HSR is approved, it will do NOTHING to get Scott off the pot and send money for things like Streetcar or BRT.  If the HSR is not approved, same old shit - different day, nothing get's scott off the pot for any reason there either.

In other words, what Scott does or doesn't do with HSR is more a snapshot of his conservative think, then it is a plus or minus for local projects. Frankly, the guy hates rail and transit in general, Florida HSR and all the money in Washington isn't going to change that.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 02, 2011, 07:51:50 PM
So which part of his statement is "crazy" TU?

that would be the part where he says HSR should be used for connecting long distance cities, go at least 200mph, and only is viable in the northeast.....then endorse a plan to build HSR from Orlando's airport to Disney!

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 02, 2011, 09:30:34 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 02, 2011, 07:51:50 PM
So which part of his statement is "crazy" TU?

that would be the part where he says HSR should be used for connecting long distance cities, go at least 200mph, and only is viable in the northeast.....then endorse a plan to build HSR from Orlando's airport to Disney!

Excellent and may I add..........it would be TRUE rat rail, the kind Ock and others have complained about even the Orlando-Tampa route to be.

On the issue of LIAR Scott, here is another interesting tid bit:

QuoteWhile in D.C. for a national governor's convention on Friday morning, he met with Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood at LaHood's office in the southwest corridor of the city. A long, frank discussion ended with the governor promising to provide a list of what he needed to support the high-speed rail project by the end of this week. So far, Transportation officials confirm, he has not provided it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/01/rick-scott-scott-walker-most-isolated-gop-governor_n_829981.html

QuoteAltman/Joyner lawyer: Scott ‘amazingly’ claims he is not a state ‘official’


The lawyer for state Sens. Thad Altman, R-Viera, and Arthenia Joyner, D-Tampa, argues Gov. Rick Scott ”amazingly” claims he is not subject to a 2009 law creating a rail enterprise to oversee construction of a bullet train.

The legal teams for the legislators and Scott will square off at 3 p.m. tomorrow at the Florida Supreme Court to make their arguments over whether Scott erred by blocking the $2.7 billion high-speed rail project last month.

Earlier today, Scott’s lawyers claimed the legislators were suing because they were simply miffed their “police preferences” hadn’t prevailed in the political realm, and that the high court couldn’t step in and take ownership of the public works project â€" nor compel the Legislature or governor to spend federal money that hadn’t been appropriated yet.

But the response just filed by Altman’s Melbourne-based lawyer, Clifton McClelland Jr.,claims no further appropriation is needed to spend the federal money.

“Respondent has set up a fake argument just in order to tear it down. Petitioners are not asking this Court to direct the Respondent how to manage the construction of the high speed rail in Florida,” he wrote in a reply you can read here.

“Instead, the Petitioners are simply asking this Court to direct the Respondent that he does not have the jurisdiction or authority as granted by the laws of this State (which he is obligated to faithfully execute) to take the action he has taken in rejecting a specific appropriation of $130.8 million; federal grants amounting to $2.4 billion subject to statutory authority; dedicated funding pursuant to the Florida Rail Act of $60 million per year; and thus the entire high speed rail project.

“So it is clear, the Petitioners are not asking this Court to direct the Respondent how to manage those matters over which he has the authority, as permitted and limited by statutes or by the Constitution.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2011/03/altmanjoyner-lawyer-scott-amazingly-claims-he-is-not-a-state-official.html

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 02, 2011, 09:21:09 PM
GOOD! Because absolutely none of that money can go for anything BUT HSR, but accepting the money when we have such a bad project is equally wrong. Either way it's a bad deal, but I come down on the side of the railroad industry that says this thing is such a "dog" that it is going to wipe out all prospects of HSR being built again, or expanded in our lifetimes... In that case, better to sit out Scott and try for something a bit more logical later.

Not really.  The huge difference is that accepting the money only means moving forward with the bidding process.  If the private sector doesn't assume the finanical obligations associated with it, it doesn't happen.  This also allows for the private sector to suggest potential modifications that could lead to a more viable project. This option is called letting the process systematically play itself out with facts instead of fears and opinions.

QuoteMaybe not, but SOMEBODY will be when the trains stop rolling, and CSX tenders a bid to pick up the route as a freight mainline for pennies on the dollar. Who pays when the federal government screws the pooch?

Allow hybrid commuter/intercity rail on the infrastructure and it will be just fine.

Quote

QuoteThis guy has turned Tallahassee into a circus.

Sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy the clowns.

OCKLAWAHA

The circus has gone on continuously since I arrived in Jax eight years ago.  At some point, the show must end.  Now is as good a time as any.

Stephen...I agree with your entire post...with the small exception of the following

Quote from: stephendare on March 02, 2011, 09:54:06 PM
After all, Jacksonville isnt a part of the Florida High Speed Rail project.  There are no plans, for it to be joined to the network, not even in the medium term.

to be accurate, the Florida Rail Commission (at its meeting in Jax. last month) passed a resolution adding Orlando-Jacksonville to the official route map as Phase 3

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 02, 2011, 09:30:21 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 02, 2011, 09:11:12 PM
Ock, we need all the money we can get, even if we get creative and take advantages of innovative funding mechanisms. the delay won't be CSX.  The delay will come in the form of no state and less federal financial assistance in local projects that we can't afford to do on our own (ex. dredging the river, commuter rail, etc.).  For example, our commuter rail plans are dependent on getting 50% federal and 25% state dollars.  The mobility plan will help provide the local 25% of capital costs.  Take the state and federal dollars out of it and we'll need to find a new way to access the lost 75% in funding.  In that scenario, delay is inevitable.  

The federal DOT will not punish Florida localities for Scott's actions, but as long as Scott is in Tally, no amount of Federal money is going to get sent through FDOT for local transit projects. But that's WITH or WITHOUT HSR, Scott doesn't believe in transit of any kind.

We have to compete for limited federal dollars with other states and cities across the country.  They aren't going overfund a local project just because we have Rick Scott in Tallahassee.  We'll be sitting on the sidelines trying to figure out how to fill in the funding gap.  Luckily, the way things are going, he may not make it through the end of his first term.

QuoteIf the HSR is approved, it will do NOTHING to get Scott off the pot and send money for things like Streetcar or BRT.  If the HSR is not approved, same old shit - different day, nothing get's scott off the pot for any reason there either.

If approved and developed by the private sector, Florida will finally get a major rail project off the ground without the state being responsible for constructing, operating or maintaining it.  Once Scott leaves Tally in 2014 (HSR won't open until 2015), we will be able to leverage the fact that its there, as a means to gain additional federal dollars for local and intercity rail projects that will be needed to establish a statewide network.

QuoteIn other words, what Scott does or doesn't do with HSR is more a snapshot of his conservative think, then it is a plus or minus for local projects. Frankly, the guy hates rail and transit in general, Florida HSR and all the money in Washington isn't going to change that. [/b]
OCKLAWAHA

Scott will only be in office until 2014.  However, he can do a lot of damage in the next four years.  If people sit back and let him have his way without fighting for what they believe in, we'll all have to live with the long term consequences.

Quote from: stephendare on March 02, 2011, 09:54:06 PM
Its insane to enable this guy.  If he gets traction on a mediocre plan (and lets be honest, the problem with central florida's HSR is that the project is mediocre.  It won't be a boondoggle because it services one of Florida's main industries, but it won't really build a sustainable commuter style train service either.  The tracks are really just an upgrade and the train won't really reach high speed status.) then he will use that traction to be emboldened in further anti rail steps but next time it will be a really good plan.

Florida's main industry? But they're claiming it serves Orlando and Tampa travelers, and that it will remove a million cars from I-4 for that purpose... Unless they are quoting numbers which they suddenly pull from 32 Million non existent passengers arriving at OIA. This thing, as-is, is an industry killer.

QuoteSo what if Central Florida's HSR isnt really what its cracked up to be.

America and the World are watching, THAT'S why it's so damn critical to get this right.

QuoteIt is vexing for a high speed rail purist to pretend that the Florida HSR project is anything more than an expensive corridor improvement, real estate sprawl tool, and keynesian stimulus to the central florida economy.

Actually not so much Keynesian as it is the old failed central planning of a good Marxian or Stalinist policy.

QuoteBut it will not be a boondoggle, it will be used, and it reflects the wishes of those cities which have worked so hard for it.

Considering it is being proposed and (will be) built based on insanely misleading, false and otherwise disingenuous statements, if it fails, (and AS-IS it will) it will be labeled as 1,000 times worse then the Skyway.
Statements like "50 million visitors a year to Central Florida, and if only 5% ride FROM THE ORLANDO AIRPORT, it will take 1.5 million cars off of I-4..."

My Problem with this:

50 million visitors DON'T GO ANYWHERE FROM ORLANDO, more like 18 Million arrivals a year, but they take a 50 million total visitor statement, then magically apply all of them to OIA, then swing back to say look at all the cars we removed! After a "SAY WHAT DADDY?" moment, it gets my SOUTHRON up making me want to go bear hunting with a switch!

QuoteIt is manifestly evident that the proof that HSR investment is greatly to be desired will not be the tampa to orlando connection, but rather the excellent northeastern and Californian systems.  It is therefore an grand overstatement to think that any possible stagnation of orlando/tampa HSR will 'poison the groundwater' for High Speed Rail in general...

Since this is the first out of the gate, when it opens and the initial bang simmers down to a whimper with few riders, there won't be another project - ANYWHERE in the USA, all one has to do is read the industry magazines. From "Railway Age," in the United States, "El Reportero Ferroviario" in Colombia, "Shinkansen NEWS" in Japan, Eurail Press, in the EU, to Railways Africa, they are all warning us not to build a loser, and they all think Florida's project could well fall into that category.

QuoteAmtrak, and therefore High Speed Rail---and indeed most of passenger rail---is a federal project at its very core.

Sadly it HAS come to this but only in the last 50 years... There is still a fantastic concept being floated in California to sweeten the tax credit pot for passenger rail to the point where Amtrak, Commuter Rail, and other rail could and would all go back private.

QuoteScott blocking rail on principle is a far greater problem for us here in Jacksonville than the building of a mediocre system being built in mediocre central florida.

But approved or denied, this project will have no effect on Scott's handing us a check for transit... Because whatever his principal or lack thereof, he isn't going to change his tune, not for us, not for streetcars, not for commuter rail, not for Orlando, not for ANY transit project. This is why I could NEVER vote for the guy, he is ANTI-TRANSIT and ANTI-RAIL.

The boondoggle is within the documentation on the HSR applications, item after item that are patently false, such as "freight will offset the passenger revenue shortfalls," or "XXXXXXX cars on I-4 daily and HSR will relieve XXXX of them making expansion of I-4 unnecessary" However, the whole line is designed only to serve people arriving and departing from an AIRPORT, and will have no effect whatsoever on I-4!" That's the boondoggle, the whole thing is smoke and mirrors.

In fact I have undertaken a "Night Air Restricted Pneumonia Choked Coffin Varnish Swilling Project" to copy the entire damn application and pull out all of the false and misleading statements... By the time I'm done this will all be history and they'll probably be building the riderless express, it should make for an interesting read.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 02, 2011, 10:02:11 PM
Stephen...I agree with your entire post...with the small exception of the following

Quote from: stephendare on March 02, 2011, 09:54:06 PM
After all, Jacksonville isnt a part of the Florida High Speed Rail project.  There are no plans, for it to be joined to the network, not even in the medium term.

to be accurate, the Florida Rail Commission (at its meeting in Jax. last month) passed a resolution adding Orlando-Jacksonville to the official route map as Phase 3

Stephen, to be even more accurate, they are going to claim the FEC RY project as HIGH SPEED RAIL to Jacksonville (90 mph - if it ever gets done) and the Commission has no more intent to spend more money to send a line to Jacksonville then that - EVER! More smoke and mirrors and BULL SHIT... If you consider a regular Amtrak train running fast south of TITUSVILLE, you've seen Jacksonville High Speed Rail as far as Florida is concerned, but if you think in terms of bullet trains to Orlando and Miami... It ain't going to happen. If TU believes it, it's only wishful thinking, or he's completely deluded.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock what is it about sending the project to the rail professionals you do not like.  Is the rail industry incompetent, incapable or what.  If they do not put forth viable bids or bids at all that is the logical point to put this to bed not weeks before we see if they can put up a lemonade stand.

Quote from: stephendare on March 02, 2011, 11:04:50 PM
Meh.  Its more critical that we get Jacksonville right, both for the national system and our own local interests.

Helping out a guy who is fundamentally against rail doesnt do that.

And I hate to tell you this, but no one is really looking at the long term use or application of the Central Florida HSR. They can't.  It hasn't happened yet, nor will it happen within the next four years. They are looking at whether or not Rick Scott gets away with screwing over rail, however.  If he is successful, other governors hoping to run for president will screw the interests of this country and their states and delay rail another 15 years.

At the end of the day we have a greater responsibility.  We are finally at that crucial juncture where the feds are ready to roll money over from highways into rail again after 80 years.

We do not need to be empowering anyone who can block that doorway.
Steve you say that we need to not suppor anyone who can block that doorway...that pretty much means all republicans....does that mean you'll be voting for a democrat for mayor and council?

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 02, 2011, 11:03:52 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 02, 2011, 10:02:11 PM
Stephen...I agree with your entire post...with the small exception of the following

Quote from: stephendare on March 02, 2011, 09:54:06 PM
After all, Jacksonville isnt a part of the Florida High Speed Rail project.  There are no plans, for it to be joined to the network, not even in the medium term.

to be accurate, the Florida Rail Commission (at its meeting in Jax. last month) passed a resolution adding Orlando-Jacksonville to the official route map as Phase 3

Stephen, to be even more accurate, they are going to claim the FEC RY project as HIGH SPEED RAIL to Jacksonville (90 mph - if it ever gets done) and the Commission has no more intent to spend more money to send a line to Jacksonville then that - EVER! More smoke and mirrors and BULL SHIT... If you consider a regular Amtrak train running fast south of TITUSVILLE, you've seen Jacksonville High Speed Rail as far as Florida is concerned, but if you think in terms of bullet trains to Orlando and Miami... It ain't going to happen. If TU believes it, it's only wishful thinking, or he's completely deluded.

OCKLAWAHA

To be honest, I would be happy with this (90mph corridor service on the FEC).  However, if the Tampa/Orlando line falters, you can kiss this one goodbye as well.  They both happen to be HSR projects and this one would require state money.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 02, 2011, 10:57:09 PM
Florida's main industry? But they're claiming it serves Orlando and Tampa travelers, and that it will remove a million cars from I-4 for that purpose... Unless they are quoting numbers which they suddenly pull from 32 Million non existent passengers arriving at OIA. This thing, as-is, is an industry killer.

QuoteSo what if Central Florida's HSR isnt really what its cracked up to be.

America and the World are watching, THAT'S why it's so damn critical to get this right.

Ock....this is why you let the process continue....each of the private consortiums will do their own revenue & ridership studies....and with names like Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Virgin, and Siemens, I'm willing to bet they'll do very thorough studies...if they feel the risk is too great, they won't bid.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 02, 2011, 11:03:52 PM
Stephen, to be even more accurate, they are going to claim the FEC RY project as HIGH SPEED RAIL to Jacksonville (90 mph - if it ever gets done) and the Commission has no more intent to spend more money to send a line to Jacksonville then that - EVER!

really...did you attend the meeting last month Ock?

btw...the new Federal proposal for high speed rail sets up three different levels based on speed....90mph isn't called high speed rail...I think they are calling it enhanced corridor service

btw, if anyone wants to watch the oral arguments before the FL Supreme Court, they'll be shown live at 3pm today

http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/index.php

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 02, 2011, 10:02:11 PM
Stephen...I agree with your entire post...with the small exception of the following

Quote from: stephendare on March 02, 2011, 09:54:06 PM
After all, Jacksonville isnt a part of the Florida High Speed Rail project.  There are no plans, for it to be joined to the network, not even in the medium term.

to be accurate, the Florida Rail Commission (at its meeting in Jax. last month) passed a resolution adding Orlando-Jacksonville to the official route map as Phase 3

Not to sound impatient but, why can't orlando to Jacksonville be phase 2, or even extend it as part of phase 1.

1. Because Jax never participated during the last +20 years of planning this thing.

2. Because metro Miami is five times the size of Jax and ridership between Orlando and Miami would be significantly higher.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 12:10:48 PM
1. Because Jax never participated during the last +20 years of planning this thing.

2. Because metro Miami is five times the size of Jax and ridership between Orlando and Miami would be significantly higher.

That makes sense. We just need to be more aggressive next time there's a discussion on the matter.

If we ever get high speed rail into Jacksonville, it will most likely be to/from Atlanta.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 03, 2011, 10:33:00 AM
btw, if anyone wants to watch the oral arguments before the FL Supreme Court, they'll be shown live at 3pm today

http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/index.php

Thanks for the tip........I definitely will be watching!!

This is a really good piece!!

QuoteA law-making governor?
ADVERTISEMENT

  Published: March 3, 2011

A lawsuit against Gov. Rick Scott sends a question to the state Supreme Court that is more important than the high-speed train behind the controversy. Does Florida's governor have the power to single-handedly change state law?

Conservative leaders at the state and national level, who are usually defenders of the rule of law and the limits of constitutional authority, have been oddly silent on the issue.

The lawsuit by Democrat Arthenia Joyner of Tampa and Republican Thad Altman of Melbourne, both state senators, makes a point that has gotten lost in the heated political argument over whether the economic benefits of the project are worth its price.

Money for high-speed rail nationally was appropriated by Congress. The prior governor and Legislature asked for and accepted federal support. In trying to disqualify Florida for the federal grant, Scott is ignoring state law.

It has been easy, and not entirely accurate, to frame the issue as Scott refusing Obama's $2.4 billion gift for the Tampa-Lakeland-Orlando line. As the lawsuit notes, the money is from Congress, not Obama. The state Legislature in 2009 passed a law creating the Florida Rail Enterprise, assigning it the task of overseeing high-speed rail, and providing it future operating money from the state.

Scott's actions effectively undo that law.

His main defense is that he is representing taxpayers and that the courts should stay out of what is a political decision. Who does he think the Legislature and Congress represent? Those are the bodies with the power to make laws, to tax and to spend, not the governor or president.

"The High Speed Rail Act," the lawsuit states, "requires the Florida Rail Enterprise to finance and construct the high speed rail system for the state. There is no discretion."

The court is not being asked to force the governor to back a project he is determined to stop. But it can decide whether he has the authority to kill it or duck the question altogether.

Lawmakers who agree with Scott just because they disagree with high-speed rail should think about how powerful a governor they would be comfortable with. Would they allow a governor to stop any project he thinks wastes money?

Some of these leaders seem more worried about upsetting anti-rail tea-party activists than upholding state law.

As a practical matter, it will be tough to build a major transportation project that the governor doesn't want built. Under Scott's lead, state lawmakers might well change state law to forbid high-speed rail. But so far they haven't.

The cities of Tampa, Lakeland, Orlando and Miami are creating their own agency to accept the federal money and do what Scott refuses to do. The cities have written assurance from the federal Department of Transportation that neither the cities nor the state will have a financial obligation to repay the grant if the rail line fails.

The mayors of Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando and business leaders met with Scott Monday to explain the arrangement lets state taxpayers off the hook. Scott simply ignores the facts.

Despite two statewide ballot issues on rail, state voters haven't had a direct say on the federally funded rail plan. In 2004, voters repealed a state constitutional amendment passed four years earlier that required state taxpayers to build high-speed trains whatever the cost.

We joined many other rail supporters in believing that the project did not belong in the constitution. It was not a direct referendum on rail.

A recent Harris poll found that more than two-thirds of Florida residents support state and federal funding of high-speed rail. Clearly, Scott and his core supporters do not.

Scott's opinion on rail does not negate his oath to uphold state law. It is easy to see how the court could find Scott overstepped his authority, but also hard to see how the court could force him to make this project work.

The best legal and political solution is for the cities to be allowed to build it without Scott's help

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2011/mar/03/MEOPINO1-a-law-making-governor/

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 03, 2011, 01:46:17 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 03, 2011, 10:33:00 AM
btw, if anyone wants to watch the oral arguments before the FL Supreme Court, they'll be shown live at 3pm today

http://www.wfsu.org/gavel2gavel/index.php

Thanks for the tip........I definitely will be watching!!

My reception just stopped........anyone else have that problem too?

How was it going before your reception stopped?

Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 04:24:47 PM
How was it going before your reception stopped?

Didn't look positive for us.

Mostly because the state legislature hadn't issued a continuing resolution for appropriation, meaning that in future years it would have to appropriate the remainder of the funds over and above the $130 million already appropriated.

Apparently the state advances the monies and then gets reimbursed by the federal government.

Or they could have appropriated the entire $2.4 billion and Scott couldn't have done anything to stop it.

I still think though that the certification that was sent to the federal government should have been legally binding for the entire $2.4 billion.

I didn't really hear them talking about that, but like I said my reception got cut out and I haven't been able to watch it any further.

Governor Scott also was compared to Gov. Sanford who refused to accept the ARRA monies too, but lost in a court case against him.

I'm back on, but through a repeat here: http://www.wfsu.org/flashwebcasts/web3.php

Florida Channel Web 1

Looking forward to getting back to the point where the other broadcast left off.

yeah...I only saw a little bit....but it didn't look promising

So yeah, there wasn't much more anyway.

But what was interesting is that it was brought up by Justice Perriente that conceivably the legislature could refuse to appropriate funds 5 years into the project and that the federal government should really have an ability to make sure a project that was committed to, would be completed.

The petitioner said yes, but it is solely the the prerogative of the legislature, or the governor by way of veto of an already passed appropriation.

BTW in gov. Sanford's case the entire award was appropriated, so it could not be stopped by Gov. Sanford.

QuoteClifton McClelland, the attorney for Joyner and Altman, argued that the Florida Rail Act passed by the Legislature in December 2009 and approved by then-Gov. Charlie Crist obligates Scott to allow construction of the line.

"We have an articulated state policy to develop a rail line between the Tampa Bay area and Orlando," McClelland said.

He noted that the Legislature appropriated $130 million in federal money to get the project started.

The judges, though, hammered McClelland with questions about whether that appropriation would extend to the full $2.4 billion award, which would cover nearly all of the construction rail line's construction costs.

"The project cannot go forward without further appropriations by the Legislature. Isn't that correct?" asked Chief Justice Charles Canady. "This is a project that is still very much in expectancy. It's not something the Legislature has fully authorized."

Scott's attorney, Charles Trippe, argued that ruling in favor of Altman and Joyner and pressing for construction of the rail line would involve also requiring the Legislature to appropriate additional money, forbidding Scott from vetoing the appropriation.

"The scope of this is vast," he said.

Earlier Thursday, the mayors of Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando said Thursday that they have received assurances from the U.S. Department of Transportation that Florida would not have to pay back $2.4 billion if the high-speed rail project failed.

"If there is one point that I would like to get across to every single Floridian who is concerned about this issue, it is this: There is absolutely no risk to the Florida taxpayer in moving forward with the high-speed rail project," Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio said. "If the governor continues to maintain that there is risk to Florida taxpayers, it is inaccurate."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/gubernatorial/florida-supreme-court-to-rule-on-high-speed-rail-suit-by-9-am-friday/1155031

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 03, 2011, 08:40:55 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 02, 2011, 11:03:52 PM
Stephen, to be even more accurate, they are going to claim the FEC RY project as HIGH SPEED RAIL to Jacksonville (90 mph - if it ever gets done) and the Commission has no more intent to spend more money to send a line to Jacksonville then that - EVER!

really...did you attend the meeting last month Ock?

btw...the new Federal proposal for high speed rail sets up three different levels based on speed....90mph isn't called high speed rail...I think they are calling it enhanced corridor service

Why should I or anyone else attend when we hear things like how many cars will be taken off an I-4 commute that this train will have no effect on what-so-ever? How about the line where freight will help offset costs? Or my favorite, "If just 5% of the (implied) 50 million passengers a year from the Orlando Airport use it then blah, blah, blah." Your average 6 year old knows better.

These guys will and have said ANYTHING to get this money for this project, what makes you think they are not promising the moon and stars to get SCOTTsonville to support their boondoggle? It ain't gonna fly wilbur, and even less so to JAX.

OCKLAWAHA

^More reason for an RFP to be issued to the private sector.  Let's have the professionals take a look at the corridor and develop their own product solutions before losing $2.4 billion in funding and putting the rest of our rail plans on financial ice instead.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 08:49:38 PM
^More reason for an RFP to be issued to the private sector.  Let's have the professionals take a look at the corridor and develop their own product solutions before losing $2.4 billion in funding and putting the rest of our rail plans on financial ice instead.

Hear, Hear!! Lets hear from the capitalistic companies!!! For if they approve........all is well.

1. The federal gov already guaranteed they will not ask for their $2.4 billion back even if the company supposedly fails
2. The winning bidder will absorb construction and operating expense overruns.

Nothing to loose for the state of Florida.

QuoteLaHood repeatedly made no bones about his strong support for high speed rail money, though he didn't explain why he's been so open to preserving the Florida project, when he gave up so quickly after Governors in Ohio and Wisconsin rejected their own high speed rail money.

"More than two-thirds of Florida residents support state/federal investment in high speed rail," LaHood argues.

President Obama goes to Florida today for an education event and two fundraisers in Miami, one for Sen. Nelson.

We'll see if any high speed rail news gets made aboard Air Force One.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jamie-dupree-washington-insider/2011/03/04/the-vultures-circle/?cxntfid=blogs_jamie_dupree_washington_insider

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 04, 2011, 08:58:07 AM
Nothing to loose for the state of Florida.

By moving ahead with this we have nothing to lose but the future of HIGH SPEED RAIL in America...  Yeah, nothing.


OCKLAWAHA

Only if you assume that no modifications can be made to what the state has developed so far.  At this point, unless someone has seen an RFP stating this, that assumption would be premature at best.

After oral arguments yesterday, the Florida Supreme Court has ruled that Rick Scott has the authority to reject the $2.4 billion in federal funds for HSR.

Looks like the money is going to other states.

QuoteFlorida high-speed train project derailed; Court rules for Scott
By the CNN Wire Staff
March 4, 2011 11:34 a.m. EST


(CNN) -- Supporters of a proposed high-speed rail system in Florida had hoped to get the project back on track Friday -- the deadline to accept $2.4 billion in federal funds -- but the Florida Supreme Court has ruled that Gov. Rick Scott can reject the money.

The court's decision Friday followed a lawsuit filed against the governor by two state senators -- one Democrat and Republican -- who claimed Scott would overstep his executive authority and be in violation of Florida's constitution if he did not accept the funds.

...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/03/04/florida.high.speed.rail/index.html?hpt=T2 (http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/03/04/florida.high.speed.rail/index.html?hpt=T2)

Yeah, its gone.  USDOT already announced that the money would be immediately split among the other 35 states working to implement HSR.

That's too bad.  I think the Court made the wrong call, but we're stuck with the outcome.

That's the name of the game.  Just keep your seatbelts on.  This won't be the last domino to drop in Tallahassee.

Quote from: Jimmy on March 04, 2011, 12:28:55 PM
That's too bad.  I think the Court made the wrong call, but we're stuck with the outcome.

after watching the oral arguments yesterday, the court was right....the petitioners had no standing

the one who made the wrong call is the Governor

I guess all responsibility flows, ultimately, back to the voters of Florida.  We've got to do better next time.

True. The same goes for our local elections. We screw this up like we did in 2003 and we'll get what we deserve.

Well said.  I think more than any election of my lifetime, this local election will make or break Jacksonville.  Or at least seal our fate for the next 20-30 years.  Which is distressing to me because I'm 34.  If we have no chance of positive momentum from City Hall, I have to evaluate carefully if this is a place where I can continue to live.  As a native, that's hard to say.

Yep... the real bummer is EVERYBODY in the state knew what Scott was going to do if he got in.  First plank of his platform was "kill hsr".  Guess no one believed him...

Quote from: Jimmy on March 04, 2011, 01:49:25 PM
Well said.  I think more than any election of my lifetime, this local election will make or break Jacksonville.  Or at least seal our fate for the next 20-30 years.  Which is distressing to me because I'm 34.  If we have no chance of positive momentum from City Hall, I have to evaluate carefully if this is a place where I can continue to live.  As a native, that's hard to say.

I hear you, I want a vibrant city to live in before I'm past my prime! (I don't to wait until I'm too old to enjoy the hip young stuff when we finally do get it)

Hmmm, it appears the HSR project hasn't been officially buried yet:

QuoteNelson Says There Is One More Chance at Rail Money

LEDGER WIRE SERVICES

Published: Friday, March 4, 2011 at 2:01 p.m.
Last Modified: Friday, March 4, 2011 at 2:01 p.m.

WASHINGTON, D.C. | U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson's office has issued a release that says a proverbial “Hail Mary” pass was thrown today â€" even as the federal government prepared to give Florida’s $2.4 billion in high-speed rail money and associated 24,000 jobs to someone else.

Taking one last shot at saving the project, Nelson said federal Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has offered to review whether the grant process could be reopened and whether the money could then be awarded directly to the local governments that just formed a new regional rail coalition in Florida, including the cities of Lakeland, Tampa, Orlando and Miami.

LaHood, according to Nelson's office, pledged in the wake of today’s Florida Supreme Court setback to have his lawyers review whether the new regional rail authority in Central Florida could be allowed to compete against the likes of California and New York and other states clamoring for the money rejected by Florida’s Gov. Rick Scott. LaHood and Nelson agreed to talk again Monday or Tuesday.

“If it can’t be done, then we’re done,” Nelson said. “Meantime, there’s an old proverb: fall seven times, stand up eight.”

Earlier today, the state Supreme Court ruled that Scott didn’t overstep his authority in rejecting the rail money, although the justices did not address the merits of the project itself.

Given the court decision, a number of states now will be getting in line. “We will take that money,” declared U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders ( I-VT ) at a Senate Budget Committee hearing Thursday. “If other states do not want it, that is fine.”

Sen. Christopher Coons ( D-Del. ) joined Sanders and Sens. Sheldon Whitehouse ( D-R.I. ) and Mark Warner ( D-Va. ) in asking LaHood at the meeting for Florida’s money. “Should the governor of Florida be so foolish as to turn back funds … it is our hope that the Northeast corridor will be highly competitive in that,” Coons said.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20110304/NEWS/110309850/1410?Title=Nelson-Says-There-Is-One-More-Chance-at-Rail-Money

QuoteLaHood, according to Nelson's office, pledged in the wake of today’s Florida Supreme Court setback to have his lawyers review whether the new regional rail authority in Central Florida could be allowed to compete against the likes of California and New York and other states clamoring for the money rejected by Florida’s Gov. Rick Scott. LaHood and Nelson agreed to talk again Monday or Tuesday.

I like it!

That would completely by-pass King Scott.

I bet Paula Dockery is furious..........she gave up running for Governor and was one of the first to endorse Scott. But then again...........who has $72 million of stolen money laying around to buy themselves the governorship?

I don't think she had much choice, but I would have voted for her even though I think Sink is very capable too. I like strong gutsy women, that are smart too. You already know who that excludes.......

Maybe Nelsons coalition of Jacksonvilleless towns and cities, if they pull this off, will have the freedom to completely abandon the stupid planning that has gone into this thus far. Get those trains running city center to city center and watch for some success. If Nelson doesn't get in the door with his Hail Mary, then we in Northeast Florida have a unique opportunity to capitalize on Orlando-Tampa-Miami's loss.

If we REALLY want to increase Jacksonville's chance of leading this technology, rather then the proverbial tail of the dog, we should get behind North Carolina-Virginia-Maryland's efforts. THEY are working toward bringing SOUTHEAST HIGH SPEED RAIL as far as Carolina, and maybe down to Columbia, SC. If that happens, next stop Savannah and Jacksonville.


OCKLAWAHA

Couldn't you say the same thing about Florida's plan?

If we REALLY want to increase Jacksonville's chance of leading this technology, rather then the proverbial tail of the dog, we should get behind Florida's efforts. THEY are working toward bringing FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL as far as North Florida and the Panhandle and already have secured $2.4 billion to get the first phase under construction in 2011.  If that happens, next stops Miami and Jacksonville.

Man how disgusting is this. I am not the cursing type. But when I read the news I did exactly that. This guy that bought the governership and could care less what his constituents think. Your all right about the local election if we get the wrong mayor in this town we are doomed. People are way to complacent in this city and need to get off there @$$ this election or someone will be turning downtown will be turned into parking lost central and the sky way will be a ghost train.

I will take both and link them.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2011, 04:19:03 PM
Couldn't you say the same thing about Florida's plan?

If we REALLY want to increase Jacksonville's chance of leading this technology, rather then the proverbial tail of the dog, we should get behind Florida's efforts. THEY are working toward bringing FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL as far as North Florida and the Panhandle and already have secured $2.4 billion to get the first phase under construction in 2011.  If that happens, next stops Miami and Jacksonville.

+100

Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2011, 04:19:03 PM
Couldn't you say the same thing about Florida's plan?

If we REALLY want to increase Jacksonville's chance of leading this technology, rather then the proverbial tail of the dog, we should get behind Florida's efforts. THEY are working toward bringing FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL as far as North Florida and the Panhandle and already have secured $2.4 billion to get the first phase under construction in 2011.  If that happens, next stops Miami and Jacksonville.

No because it makes no economic sense as proposed, it is not a viable railroad, but the 600 mile long SEHSR mainline from New York to Jacksonville and from Atlanta to Jacksonville is.  The people behind FLHSR would promise you the moon and the stars to get their hands on that money, and they have about as much real intention of taking their railroad to the panhandle as I do moving to North Dakota!

But like my stance or hate it, the SEHSR is alive and well, and FLHSR is on life support at best. We have a REAL shot with SEHSR and are likely to get NOTHING of substance from the Florida project as it now stands.

OCKLAWAHA

We'll probably be long and gone before SEHSR gets anywhere close to Jax. It's not like GA's political machine is anymore favorable or rail than Florida's. Plus, by the time it gets to Jax, I seriously doubt we'll be a leader in anything related to it.