Metro Jacksonville

I saw this just a minute ago

http://www.news4jax.com/news/26872907/detail.html (http://www.news4jax.com/news/26872907/detail.html)

Yes I saw that too, made me do this -->  ::)

Maybe they can get a holographic moon also.

I suggest a thrill type ride moving slowly through the urban landscape while buildings are demolished all around them...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 15, 2011, 01:27:42 PM
I suggest a thrill type ride moving slowly through the urban landscape while buildings are demolished all around them...

Easy... just extend the skyway ;)

QuoteThey said the hardest part is to convince private investors to spend millions on Jacksonville.

This is why this probably won't happen.  I can't imagine a small amusement park on the shipyards site being able to turn any type of decent profit for a $40 million investment.  To pull it off, it would have to HEAVILY subsidized by taxpayers......and it would still probably fail.  It's time to give up on the expensive gimmicks and get the basics of urban development right.

Not sure why anyone wouldn't like this idea, unless you have vertigo or something. I for one can't wait until I can paddle Hogan and Mccoys creek, then tie up the ol kayak at the shipyards and actually have some fun in downtown Jacksonville. Who'd a thunk it.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm not crazy about it's feasibility and after spending years studying the history of DT's rise and downfall I've come to the conclusion that the river and riverfront should be used for organic economic stimulation.  If downtown had more economic anchors that took advantage of the resources it could only provide, we would have a strong chance at reestablishing a self sufficient core instead of worrying about gimmicks to attract suburbanites and tourist.  Thinking along those lines, I'm not sure that a miniature $40mm theme park is the highest and best use of riverfront property.

^ I completely agree.

This will absolutely happen. And Target is opening up at the Park View. And they are going to finish the Skyway. Also the Laura Street Trio will be completely renovates. And I heard that an investor group is arranging funding to start a Unicorn Pen in one of the overgrown parking lots!

Hasn't this theme park thing come up before? I know there was a theme park way back in the early 1900s but I think this kind of thing is just not suited to downtown Jax. I wouldn't mind a carnival-type atmosphere on maybe the Southbank but...are these the guys suggesting the downtown zipline?

It makes me sad how small minded the "leadership" in this town is. A theme park at the Shipyards? Seriously?

A zip line across the river would be cool tho... 8)

In case anyone is curious I did some reading about a place called AutoWorld that opened in Flint, MI back in the 1980s.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2009/07/they_needed_more_thrill_lookin.html

Here's a site complete with pictures.

http://toysaregoodfood.com/blog/index.php/2003/09/01/six-flags-autoworld/#more-566

A neat idea. It failed spectacularly... as I suspect a similar idea would in Jacksonville.

wow this just keeps getting better....I would like to put a bid in for a ski resort.

I referred to this in some of my previous posts.

Ben Carter(whose idea this was) is not going to invest in such a park(that should give you a clear idea where this is heading).  Take that for what you will.

I honestly believe this is 'pie in the sky' talk.  A formal Bay Street Pier Park plan will be presented very shortly.  I think you all will be very impressed.  CG7, Lake, etc is right.  The riverfront will only succeed when active uses connecting the public with the water are introduced.

BTW, we already have a water park downtown at Met Park.  The extreme under utilization of this water park feature should be evidence enough that there is very little demand for an amusement park downtown.

Incidentally, Bat's post about AutoWorld was famously referanced in Michael Moore's first documentary.

One thing to consider....

(Noone, you might want to sit down for this) The REI headquarters in downtown Denver has their kayak testing facility in and around the river that passes right through DT.  The have even put artificial rapids in a couple places to make it more exciting.  Their river is somewhere between the width at the courthouse and Hogan's Creek.  I don't mean we need to copy this exactly, but it's not a bad idea.  An outfitter with a hand launch at the intersection of Hogan's and The St Johns.

If you want to look into the REI headquarters, it is an amazing re-use of an old factory.  5 floors staggered inside to make dozens of different areas.  It's one of the coolest stores I've ever seen.

Autoworld was the first thought that popped into my mind after reading the article.

The waterpark at Met Park will no longer be there once the redesign is complete. Not too sure about this plan, I thought they were going to focus on Laura St? and not spread things out.

I just disagree that this would not work.I was in downtown Saturday and Sunday,. There were alot of people at the Landing with kids who looked bored and had a I wish there was a roller coaster around look on there faces. Also I just printed the story from the Biz Journal link, and took it into the plant and showed the concept to the machine operators and forklift drivers, etc, and every man and woman said it was something they would go too. Sorry but from work that is the best survey I could do. I know I along with many other people in town and out of town would go. Also look and PARC's website (the company interested in doing this) they seem to know what they are doing.

We have a couple issues going here.

QuoteThere were alot of people at the Landing with kids who looked bored and had a I wish there was a roller coaster around look on there faces.

I have two boys, ages 9 & 7.  One of the funniest things I notice about them is that they have the most fun doing "free" things.  Grab a ball and take them to a park with active recreational amenities and they'll run around all day.  In short, we can and should be developing our urban parks to be active recreational public spaces (ex. playing fields, playgrounds, fountains, etc.).  We can provide these things at an affordable cost without giving away riverfront property for private theme park development.

QuoteAlso I just printed the story from the Biz Journal link, and took it into the plant and showed the concept to the machine operators and forklift drivers, etc, and every man and woman said it was something they would go too. Sorry but from work that is the best survey I could do. I know I along with many other people in town and out of town would go.

This would be one of the major problems, imo.  Everyone would go.....probably once.  It would be too small to draw in large numbers of out-of-town visitors and not have enough to keep the same locals paying admission prices on a regular basis.  Other than that, if PARC wants to do a theme park in DT (at the moment, this doesn't sound like a real proposal), there's plenty of non-riverfront property in the Sports District to take advantage of.

You don't know what the park would be like so you don't know people wouldn't buy annual passes for this park, or at least come back often. I go to the zoo at least 10 times a year. This would also leave river access to the public, which is a big priority for me. But let me say this is just my opinion, and the people I work with, So I will leave it alone . Peace out!

Im seriously LOLing reading this shit. Only the crappiest towns think of this kind of stuff. I was living in Corpus Christi TX when they were trying to do the same thing to their downtown waterfront. Yeah, Corpus Christi. There's a reason no one talks about that place, because its a dump of a city with no vision whatsoever with a bunch of local yokel retards running it. Hmmm. So I guess Jax is just a bigger version of that now is it?? Lucky me! I sure can pick 'em.

So basically they want the old run down Boardwalk Amusement Center that was in Daytona moved to downtown Jax now, complete with go-carts, putt putt, & shady characters all about. Hey, will there be a fun house too?? That was my favorite!!

Sounds like a helluva time, guys. I hope it passes here.  ::)

Great idea. It puts me in the mind of the rides and stuff they used to have at the beach. And if anybodys old enough to remember, the beach stayed packed because of that. I think this is a perfect fit. But find the money and investors is the hard part.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 15, 2011, 04:23:36 PM
We have a couple issues going here.

QuoteThere were alot of people at the Landing with kids who looked bored and had a I wish there was a roller coaster around look on there faces.

I have two boys, ages 9 & 7.  One of the funniest things I notice about them is that they have the most fun doing "free" things.  Grab a ball and take them to a park with active recreational amenities and they'll run around all day.  In short, we can and should be developing our urban parks to be active recreational public spaces (ex. playing fields, playgrounds, fountains, etc.).  We can provide these things at an affordable cost without giving away riverfront property for private theme park development.

We have very nice ball parks all over this city and NONE of them are open for the average bunch of boys or girls to use for a pick up ball game. Yeah, there are some hoops without nets sprinkled here and there but just try to go beyond the fence to the real ball fields. The only skate board park that I know of is at Ed Austin Park - a little far for most.

Of course, that really doesn't matter. The littlest tykes can't go anywhere without mom and dad or the baby sitter and the older kids have too much inside stuff to be bothered going out for some good exercise. They own the latest in electronic games or their TV's, Ipods or phones but I think you'd be hard pressed to find very many bats, balls or gloves, excepting the ones into organized sports programs.

Good call on the been there done that theme. One trip a year, if that, is good enough for locals heading for an amusement park. If I'm visiting another city I might go to their amusement park to see what it's all about but again, once per location is enough. There's probably a good reason the carnys and fairs only come around once a year.

Quote from: CG7 on February 15, 2011, 04:43:26 PM
You don't know what the park would be like so you don't know people wouldn't buy annual passes for this park, or at least come back often. I go to the zoo at least 10 times a year. This would also leave river access to the public, which is a big priority for me. But let me say this is just my opinion, and the people I work with, So I will leave it alone . Peace out!

I'll admit that I have had the experience of working on the design of a theme park, much larger than what could fit on the Shipyards site.  Even attended a few theme park conventions while involved with that project.  That failed project was supposed to be called Steamboat City in Brunswick, GA.  Here is a link to a 2004 article about it:

http://www.news4jax.com/news/3443418/detail.html

(http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0408/2987112_480X360.jpg)

It was fun to work on but it was a no go when it was time for investors and the bank to put up the money to fund its construction.  Looking back, a few people in the firm (me included) had this very same debate about placing this use on the shipyards site when Trilegacy's plan went up in smoke.  

With all of that said, working on that project, I do know that there aren't a ton of successful miniature theme parks, the majority of them have closed and many of those open now are taking a financial beating.  Nevertheless, rides and theme park survival strategy aside, I do know that a theme park is not the best economic use of downtown's remaining riverfront property.  In addition, if someone wants to put a theme park in downtown, there's tons of non-riverfront surface parking lots we can direct them to.  As for leaving the river accessible to the public, we can do that regardless of use.  All the city has to do is a little visioning and carve out the public property they want.   Anyway, no need to get offended, this is just a good time vetting of the use in discussion.

Please do not waste money on a theme park downtown.  Or anywhere in Jacksonville.  Passive recreation areas are what we need.  Put some public art in them and let the kids go wild.  Maybe a few play structures that are public art - but not too many.  Perhaps something like this:

(http://i56.tinypic.com/qpgvuu.jpg)

At least theme parks will charge admission which will limit children's exposure to the homeless that are in our parks.
I love recreation in parks but I don't want my wife taking our children to parks alone because of the homeless.  Fixing up parks will mean nothing if that situation isn't resolved.

I think there is a play structure like the one above at the Huntington Forest Blvd Park in Mandarin.

What a great thread. Where to start. I'll start by saying "Keep the Promised 680'Downtown Public Pier separate from the former Shipyards/Landmar and away from total government control by the JEDC or DIA."

Remember that our Parks Dept has been expanded to now read Parks, Recreation, Entertainment and now to include Conservation.

Remember Shipyards. $36,500,000 taxpayer money gone. 16 acres of Public space. Landmar comes in and the 16 acres of Public space has been reduced to 8 acres and there was 150 slip marina on both projects and not one slip for the public.

So with that said. If the theme park happens and the total control is DIA with an area that will then be only accessible by paying an admission charge. The other part of the puzzle is the convention center that would bring this higher first time customer looking for something to do.

In the meantime I can't wait to hear what Field has in mind with Bay St. Pier Park, I agree with CG7 and taking a kayak from McCoys or Hogans and going with the tide and being able to get out near the base of the pier where the tide is not as strong and having a floating dock that could accommodate a kayaker on either side of the pier. The pier would pay for itself. If the DIA is charging an admission charge lets say $1. The pier would charge $1. But if you arrive by water then its FREE. That's right FREE.

If you arrive by water and you are now standing on the Pier then exit into the DIA theme park then your admission is FREE. If you are at the theme park and now want to go on the Pier it will cost you $1.

So what are the benefits.
More people will Use the River.
Remember a floating dock was used at this pier during Super Bowl XXXIX. Bring it back.
The Pier could open immediately.
Again use containers because we are a port city.
Lake, I also agree with free recreational access. Have the sportsmans container. Imagine an ongoing free throwing contest with a basketball hoop. A game of horse with elimination and ultimately a winner. People will come back to defend their title. shuffleboard on the pier. I can go on and on. But its an organic cluster and the use of a pier with a benefit that will have people traveling from other counties on the water because they know they will be able to get in for free. And if you pay a fare at the RAM and take the River taxi when you get to the pier you will be able to get in for FREE.  
 

Think of this as a mix between Chicago's Navy Pier with the attractions, New York's South Street Seaport with it's upscale shops, and San Francisco's Fisherman's Wharf with it's cable car connectivity to downtown and it's ease of access to the water. Yes this would cost a lot of money, but taking certain aspects from each of these successful waterfront developments could benefit this endeavor in the long run

Quote from: thelakelander on February 15, 2011, 04:23:36 PM

QuoteAlso I just printed the story from the Biz Journal link, and took it into the plant and showed the concept to the machine operators and forklift drivers, etc, and every man and woman said it was something they would go too. Sorry but from work that is the best survey I could do. I know I along with many other people in town and out of town would go.

This would be one of the major problems, imo.  Everyone would go.....probably once.  It would be too small to draw in large numbers of out-of-town visitors and not have enough to keep the same locals paying admission prices on a regular basis.  Other than that, if PARC wants to do a theme park in DT (at the moment, this doesn't sound like a real proposal), there's plenty of non-riverfront property in the Sports District to take advantage of.

Lake, too small to out of town guests, too bland to hold local interests, too little, too late, another aimless stab in the dark from the flailing hands of a drowning and desperate city.

Exactly why I think a honest to God TROLLEY PARK would work. Not even Orlando has thought of that one. I'd use the Shipyards and scatter it along both banks of Hogan's Creek AL LA OKC-SAN ANTONIO. I would theme it in the steamboat gingerbread and carnie looks of 1920. Include a jaw dropping wooden coaster, plus other traditional rides all housed in proper 1920's style gingerbread shelters. A midway, could be set up along the Riverwalk or the "Creek Walk." I'd mix it with a couple of big box retailers unique enough to require a drive from as far as Valdosta, Tallahassee and Gainesville. IKEA (their urban version), BASS PRO (built into a quay), seafood and farm markets, and of course tie it to downtown with a vintage streetcar. Perhaps we could do an article on the old Trolley Parks, which once numbered over 2,000.

Anything we did could be heavy on riverfront history, the sea, the rails and a huge helping of DIXIELAND and OSTRICH FARM tossed in for good measure. Doesn't have to be huge, just unique enough to carve a niche.

OCKLAWAHA

I'm not sold. Anyway, here is what the proposal states about the theme park:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1185301513_xUALS-600x10000.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1185301530_9L3cc-600x10000.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1185301517_mx4Mw-600x10000.jpg)

QuoteIn other cities where this type of park has been developed, the operational economics have been uniformly positive.

Is this true?... Quite a fluffed and flowery way of putting it, don't you think?

I got a coupla things. That news4jax link should've referred to this proposal as an "Amusement Park" and not a "Theme Park". It sounds like I'm nitpicking, but there is a BIG difference. Small places with only a handful of rides (like this proposal) usually charge per rides/ or with a wristband, opposed to paying a gate fee upfront. Theme Parks pay high dollar for themes like Snoopy (Cedar Fair), Batman (Six Flags) etc. Places like this can be successful if it's ran good. Most small parks doesn't have to cater to out-of-towners. Lake Winnie is Rossville, GA; Beech Bend in Bowling Green, KY or Boomers! in Ft Lauderdale (family fun center with a wooden coaster) are just a couple of many examples.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Bringing-the-fun-to-downtown-by-zipline/PEal6pb0aEOl9YFo1XPt9w.cspx

Don't know about the feasibility of THAT particular location as either a Theme Park or amusement Park ,, but at the same time, I am not opposed to the idea somewhere in the Jax area.  Since LaVilla and Brooklyn have been leveled to blighted grass lots , why not somewhere in there? Seems the majority would plan to have the "Alpha and Omega" of all Convention Centers on the waterfront.  Fine.. they need something else besides the landing, and the South Bank and a few scattered places to eat in the Downtown area.  "Theme Park"  makes me think Disney, Sea World , Six Flags  and all of those, I would think would take up a lot more area than the proposed site.

I like Ock's Idea.  I AM Sold.  :)

I'm all for the idea. I would love to see an amusement park downtown. Just a couple of problems:
There needs to be more than 2 or 3 rides there. At least 7 or 8. I don't want to go somewhere where there's only 2 rides. They could bring in a drop tower, carousel, swings, anything. PARC also want a roller coaster there but I haven't heard anything else about that. Have any of you heard of Kemah Boardwalk in Galveston, TX. Something like that but with more shops, etc.
Also parking. I agree that parking would be a problem but since it's an urban environment, they could build a parking garage across the street and an elevated people mover(like at the airport) to get people across the street safely.
Last but not least, attendance. Downtown does need something like this but with the mindset of some of the Jacksonvillians(comments on news4jax, etc.) it won't draw people downtown. I say the civic council should be on JTA's back so they could have an efficient mass transit system around the city for people to easily access.
Now that might be years away but until downtown has large crowds everyday or people can easily get there without a car, I don't think this should be built. BUT only because of the number of rides, parking problems, attendance problems. But mainly attendance problems. :)

How about this for an idea:

We make all of downtown a theme park - and the theme is ... a thriving downtown.  Great shopping, awesome food, creative performances, efficient transportation, exciting business activity.  Just imagine how cool that would be.

Most theme parks I have visited work hard at creating a 'Main Street' feel.  We already have it.  We don't need gimmicky rides to bring people downtown.  We need a functional downtown to bring people downtown.  This is being tremendously overcomplicated.  There are a few simple elements that have been presented on this forum for several years now.  The most basic of these should be implemented first before we get into expensive complicated projects trying to jump start the area.

Think Big. The London Eye was supposed to be only a temporary thing for the millenial celebration, but it turned permanent and runs gangbusters every day. What if we focused on something like that?  And yes, just charge per ride. The London Eye charges I think around 15.00 per adult and people wait all day to go on it. You can turn a profit if you build something that is unique and that people like to do.
 Please, just don't throw rinky dink traveling amusement rides here. Build a boarwalk on the river and make it a mini old school boardwalk type atmosphere. I also like the idea of it being a trolly stop. Lets embrace our past and come up with something totally unique.

I still want a zip line across the river... Friendship fountain to the Landing past the Main St Bridge   8)

I like it , Bridge Troll! 

A thriving downtown again?  That would be awesome .   

Quote from: Dapperdan on February 16, 2011, 08:11:50 AM
Think Big. The London Eye was supposed to be only a temporary thing for the millenial celebration, but it turned permanent and runs gangbusters every day. What if we focused on something like that?  And yes, just charge per ride. The London Eye charges I think around 15.00 per adult and people wait all day to go on it. You can turn a profit if you build something that is unique and that people like to do.
 Please, just don't throw rinky dink traveling amusement rides here. Build a boarwalk on the river and make it a mini old school boardwalk type atmosphere. I also like the idea of it being a trolly stop. Lets embrace our past and come up with something totally unique.

I don't think a glorified ferris wheel is necessarily thinking big. People travel to London because it's on of the top cities in the world... not because of the EYE. Also it's main attraction is that it provides a sky level view of the history and sights of London. Here it would provide a great view of leveled building foundations and parking garages. I'm not sure if if the 'Jacksonville Eye' would even attract people from Brunswick.

IMHO the city should just extend Catherine, Marsh, Palmetto and Lafayette Sts acroos Bay St to the riverwalk with utilities and sell the blocks whole or divided into lots.  Let the new property owners do whatever they want to with their property.

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on February 16, 2011, 12:47:03 PM
IMHO the city should just extend Catherine, Marsh, Palmetto and Lafayette Sts acroos Bay St to the riverwalk with utilities and sell the blocks whole or divided into lots.  Let the new property owners do whatever they want to with their property.

+1

If my understanding of history is correct, that is how downtowns came into existence and thrived.  Then we started killing them with urban renewal plans.

Quote from: Shwaz on February 16, 2011, 12:35:36 PM
I don't think a glorified ferris wheel is necessarily thinking big. People travel to London because it's on of the top cities in the world... not because of the EYE. Also it's main attraction is that it provides a sky level view of the history and sights of London. Here it would provide a great view of leveled building foundations and parking garages. I'm not sure if if the 'Jacksonville Eye' would even attract people from Brunswick.

I did not mean copy their Eye. I meant think big like that. At the time it was built, it was the tallest Ferris Wheel at 450 feet and it had individual climate controlled cabins, the ability to rent out  a cabin for yourself and your party, and 25 miles views in every direction on a clear day. No other Ferris Wheel could boast that.  People can go on a  roiver cruise on the Thames and be let off right at the Eye. To me, that is thinking big.
  Vegas has several free standing roller coasters that you pay per ride to ride on. We could do something like that, or even create our own big Ferris Wheel. I know of no other large Ferris Wheels anywhere near us or even in the entire Southeast. We could create a large river zipline like mentioned before. I still think the site is a perfect spot for an aquarium, but that would cost a lot of money. Just trying to think big and give people a reason to come here. I would go to Tampa if they for instance had the worlds longest zipline oiver a urban setting.

Can we make it a Scooby Doo themed haunted amusement park?

Can we please get serious???....I'd like to see a water park next to the river.

Dan I think your missing the point. London attracts millions upon millions of tourists per year making an attraction like this feasible. Jacksonville has neither the draw nor the scenery for a zipline / ferris wheel... no matter how big.

I agree with you that an aquarium is an attractive attraction.

Unless the city ponies up big time, I don't see any of the amusement park ideas being implemented.  With the land available, it is too small to be a regional draw, and Jax is too small to support anything locally.  However, they could go Micro amusement park (think merry go round in St Auggie) to compliment another recreational oriented use.  

If we did build a pier that was primarily dining, shopping, and active use park space, I think it could support a Merry Go Round and small ferris wheel.  Every ride individually priced at reasonable rate (think Santa Monica Pier).  Nothing huge with furries playing banjos and mascots running around.  Just a couple well made and well maintained rides to compliment a larger dining and shopping destination.  Something that would round out the appeal for all age groups.

For example, if the Town Center put in a Merry Go Round, I bet that thing would turn a profit.  If the people are already there, they'd love a feature like this.  They won't show up just for this.

My Plan:
First we build out the pier with an active use park, fishing amenities and retailers, water centered activities, and a restaurant or two at Bay Street.  Next we build East; adding shops and restaurants and nightlife.  Next we add more green space with the amusement rides just off the river.  Through all this you have foot paths and such.  Then we build residential, hotel and commercial.  At this point we're about halfway down the shipyards property. We take the rest, divide it up and sell it off and let the market decide.

If my plan went well, it would take 1-2 years for the pier portion, 2-3 for the retail/nightlife, 3 for the residential and hotel, then less than 4 for the rest.  Sure it's optimistic, but far less so than anything the city has dreamed up.

I have too many disagreements with the Civic Council's plan to itemize them here....

Can we fit a pier in downtown and still have an active waterway? Navy Pier in Chicago is great... but it's in a lake the size of an ocean.

I'm not convinced that a park of any sort is the best option. Metro-Park is on the other side of this site and it's just withering away as it is.

Quote from: Shwaz on February 16, 2011, 02:12:23 PM
Can we fit a pier in downtown and still have an active waterway? Navy Pier in Chicago is great... but it's in a lake the size of an ocean.

I'm not convinced that a park of any sort is the best option. Metro-Park is on the other side of this site and it's just withering away as it is.

Metro Park is primarily a passive use park that is isolated from the rest of downtown.  Many cities have these for large festivals and concerts, but they are far away from downtown.  Many cities also have urban parks with active uses that are used on a daily basis by residents.  Metro Park is trying to do both things, without doing either one that well. 

The park space potential at the west end of the Shipyards is totally different.  It has the potential for active uses that tie into the river while being connected to downtown.  There would be no 'great lawn' at this park, but areas of activity scattered throughout and intermingled with retail.

One thing the city could do that's theme park-related is do a far better job of promoting the tours of the Sally Industry facility in LaVilla.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on February 16, 2011, 02:20:56 PM
One thing the city could do that's theme park-related is do a far better job of promoting the tours of the Sally Industry facility in LaVilla.

That's true... I work right across the street, know a guy that works there and I've never been in for tour :D

Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 16, 2011, 02:17:38 PM

Quote from: Shwaz on February 16, 2011, 02:12:23 PM
Can we fit a pier in downtown and still have an active waterway? Navy Pier in Chicago is great... but it's in a lake the size of an ocean.

I'm not convinced that a park of any sort is the best option. Metro-Park is on the other side of this site and it's just withering away as it is.

Metro Park is primarily a passive use park that is isolated from the rest of downtown.  Many cities have these for large festivals and concerts, but they are far away from downtown.  Many cities also have urban parks with active uses that are used on a daily basis by residents.  Metro Park is trying to do both things, without doing either one that well. 

The park space potential at the west end of the Shipyards is totally different.  It has the potential for active uses that tie into the river while being connected to downtown.  There would be no 'great lawn' at this park, but areas of activity scattered throughout and intermingled with retail.

I see what you're saying but... maybe the focus should be building a park like you mentioned at the current met-park grounds. It's really not much further down... maybe 1/4 of mile.

I find it interesting that people are mentioning the same rides that we already have.

The Merry-Go-Round at the Jax Zoo
The Waterpark at Adventure Landing
Not to mention a kiddie Wacky Worm coaster at Adventure Landing (Not a thriller by no means)

If it was me in charge of this project, I wouldn't put it at the Northbank because you're killing your expansion options with such limited land to play with (I know that no one wanna hear that). Although there seems to be some considerable unused land on the Southbank.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 16, 2011, 01:04:26 PM

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on February 16, 2011, 12:47:03 PM
IMHO the city should just extend Catherine, Marsh, Palmetto and Lafayette Sts acroos Bay St to the riverwalk with utilities and sell the blocks whole or divided into lots.  Let the new property owners do whatever they want to with their property.

+1

If my understanding of history is correct, that is how downtowns came into existence and thrived.  Then we started killing them with urban renewal plans.

+1 +1

All these amusement park, aquarium, pie in the sky ideas require a tremendous amount of city government involvement. They'll all involve a great deal of parking, and will not have the return on investment that you want. People aren't going to move into downtown to be close to the aquarium or a roller coaster. And people going to them aren't going to be walking around town for food and other entertainment. They'll go to the aquarium or the amusements and eat the food that those venues provide inside. Any other places will be hundreds of yards across a parking lot. Unless you trust the city to come up with some magical plan that will incorporate these things and make it walkable and attractive to other business. I'm doubtful.

You make a city great by establishing policy that is favorable to living, working, and playing downtown. Throw in some incentives for starting small businesses and put enough police on the streets to enforce the law. Do these things then get out of the way. The people will come.

Also, artificially keeping property values high won't get anybody downtown. Sometimes to get prices high, you have to let them go low. Lower the price of entry making it economically attractive to live downtown, more people will come in, more business, more people...etc. Then prices will rise. New York is so expensive to live in because it was incredibly cheap several decades ago. Poor or thrifty artists and young professionals moved in, more people and businesses followed, etc, etc, etc. A downtown with Jacksonville's potential will improve if the market is simply allowed to behave naturally. All the interesting stuff downtown developed organically. Most of the lame stuff came by government "initiative."

Building an aquarium here would be the most logical because of the symbolic representation of the St. Johns River while Jacksonville is the mouth of the St. Johns River, where all the things begin. For example, Monterey Bay Aquarium is the symbolic aquarium of the Pacific Coast including raising awareness and preserving the sea otter, humpback whales, and other endangered species.

In addition to the connection to the surrounding area, University of North Florida' Biology Department, Jacksonville University's Marine Science, University of Georgia's Marine Science, University of Florida's Biology, University of West Florida'a Marine Science, and many more can all work together to support the Jacksonville Aquarium.

I thought the Ford Factory Plant would be AN AMAZING place for the Jacksonville Aquarium.  It really adds to the whole Entertainment / Sport complex including the Shipyards.

I know it can take business away from The Alligator Farm unless the Alligator Farm can do a partnership while the Jacksonville Aquarium would display and provide the showplace of the Alligator Farm's alligators while the actual faculty would be nursing, maintaining, and taking care of the alligators.

WHO IS WITH ME for setting up a group for Bringing Jacksonville Aquarium Alive!?

-Josh

Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 16, 2011, 02:30:53 PM
People aren't going to move into downtown to be close to the aquarium or a roller coaster. And people going to them aren't going to be walking around town for food and other entertainment. They'll go to the aquarium or the amusements and eat the food that those venues provide inside. Any other places will be hundreds of yards across a parking lot.

Don't forget that this proposal also calls for "a pedestrian mall with shops & restaurants" along with the zipline and ferris wheel.

Quote from: I-10east on February 16, 2011, 02:44:05 PM
Don't forget that this proposal also calls for "a pedestrian mall with shops & restaurants" along with the zipline and ferris wheel.

The Landing with rides! I take back my prior statements. This project will definitely revitalize downtown!

QuoteYou make a city great by establishing policy that is favorable to living, working, and playing downtown. Throw in some incentives for starting small businesses and put enough police on the streets to enforce the law. Do these things then get out of the way. The people will come.

This is a given.  I think many of our comments are geared towards this site in particular, not at DT as a whole.

Quotekilling your expansion options with such limited land to play with (I know that no one wanna hear that).

You're really not.  There's tons of room on this parcel alone.  DT is the size of Manhattan, at 1/2,000th the population density.  I spent a while looking at google maps of this area.  You have jail, giant parking lot, Maxwell house, open land, berkman disaster.  If you use the half built Berkman bldg for scale, you could easily fit 6 of those place green space and QOL amenities within the first part (before Hogans creek cuts through the property) alone.  

My reasoning for the amusement rides is purely QOL, not as a draw beyond people who would already be in the area.  Think of City Place in West Palm or what the Landing should be here.  Mixed use areas with a recreational vibe.  You add some riverfront amusement rides, Fantastic.  Nothing big, just something nice to have.  Is friendship fountain giving you a strong ROI? No, but we would never demolish it because it makes our city better.  Same here.  An equal sized combined area scattered throughout the Shipyards property for active use park and amusement activities.  All I want is a Merry go round, some interactive public art, and an interactive fountain.  Other cities have this in spades.  

Quote from: stephendare on February 16, 2011, 02:46:47 PM
only if you are with me on building a snow museum in alaska

Spot ON!  We don't need a big aquarium here! We live in an aquarium!! People just think if there isn't 6 inches of glass between them and the fish it doesn't count.

Jacksonville Aquarium would raise the awareness of our local environment and its habitations, especially the Saint Johns River.

It would create an attraction from the regional and national markets for Jacksonville.
It would support the Downtown Rebirth.
It would generate revenue for the local economy.
It would ...

-Josh

It would...Lose tons of money.

Didn't Atlanta's aquarium cost something like $200 million to construct?  Assuming the city could pony up the suggested $40 million for this theme park concept, do people really believe that this is the best way to spend $40 million in DT?  Today, between this and the HSR nonsense, I'm developing a huge headache.  Why do we make simple things so difficult?

The reasons to build the aquarium are almost the opposite of what you say.  An aquarium like the one in your head would be more of a regional draw than a local one.  A big one would get a visit from everyone in the city in the first year, but they wouldn't return for another 4 years.  When they came they would drive in, drive out.  most of the money would go to somebody outside of Jax.  it would give notariety, but that's it.

We do need a better ecology center, but we already have a dozen of those.  We need Tree Hill, the Arboretum, The thing at JU to all work together to create more buzz about the many nature conservancies in town.  They need to consolidate their resources to create a marketing department.  I watched NBC last night and I must have seen 10 commercials for the zoo.  Our various nature preserves need to do the same thing.

If there was a place that had recreated marshland ecosystems and deepwater creeks (with alligators) and tide pool ecosystems....... i'd be there in a heartbeat.  They should put this at the zoo.  

Chattanooga did the same thing...

http://www.tnaqua.org/Home.aspx

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 16, 2011, 03:13:54 PM
Chattanooga did the same thing...

http://www.tnaqua.org/Home.aspx

Exactly BT. We have half of that stuff already at the Zoo.  If we're going to do an aquarium, do it there.  We have the acreage.  We can even leave out the shark tank.  Chattanooga's aquarium is exactly what I was thinking about.

Chattanooga placed their aquarium on the river... right next to a riverwalk... in the middle of downtown.

Atlanta's was more like 350 million, but they had Arthur Blank invest a large chunk of money AND world of Coke is next to it, another major draw. An aquarium, by itself, would not be enough. Look at MOSH, move it, expand it and incorporate the Maritime museum, but there needs to be a lot connected to make the aquarium work.

oh Lake, that was a great post.

If I am not mistaken the Aquarium in Atlanta was funded by the Home Depot billionaires!

(http://photos.igougo.com/images/p159322-Chattanooga-The_Tennessee_Aquarium.jpg)

(http://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/tennessee/images/s/chattanooga.jpg)

speaking of museums and drawing people downtown. I went inside the Landing at lunch and was amazed at the amount of vacant space that has been filled! the entire western side is full. Artist have set up shop in all the spots that were vacant. It was actually pretty cool to see. While there I got lunch, bought my grandmother a birthday card and gift! Yes, all at the Landing!

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 16, 2011, 03:24:46 PM
Chattanooga placed their aquarium on the river... right next to a riverwalk... in the middle of downtown.

That I was not aware of.  I think that would cause a lot of duplication and seperate parts that would fall short of a potentially greater single entity.  The zoo has tons of undeveloped acreage.  Not everyone will be able to experience NE FL's waterways the proper way (in a boat), so an exhibit like that would be great.  A vehicle for The Riverkeeper would be a positive....

Who knows.  I'd love for us to be a conservation centered city and for all of our existing entities to work together to create a larger organization to raise awareness and generate revenue for preservation.  However, our town is a bunch of hillbillies.  Put 3 whales and a shark in a tank on Bay Street and surround it with parking lots.  i give up.

QuoteHowever, our town is a bunch of hillbillies

Yup, Lingerie Football Playoffs proved that much!

QuoteJacksonville Aquarium would raise the awareness of our local environment and its habitations, especially the Saint Johns River.

Dr Quinton White's research facility at JU is perhaps the best thing to happen to the St Johns since water was invented.

You want to raise awareness of the St Johns?  Provide more public access to it.

Unless Bill Foley feels the need to one up Arthur Blank and stops investing in winery's and wants to throw 300 million into an aquariam (exactly how is this better than Autoworld, already lampooned on this thread)... I think an Aquariam would be a truly awful idea. 

Just showing an example of a successful one in a similar environment and circumstance... :)

Quote from: mtraininjax on February 16, 2011, 03:37:33 PM

QuoteHowever, our town is a bunch of hillbillies

Yup, Lingerie Football Playoffs proved that much!

Maybe so, but a little bird told me that MARINELAND & GEORGIA AQUARIUM would likely brand, if not manage, own or even build our aquarium.

WHY?

Seems to have come to their attention that neither location is on I-95 and Jacksonville is. Think something compact, but totally unique, that serves as both attraction as well as preview and ticket center for their other adventures.

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteDr Quinton White's research facility at JU is perhaps the best thing to happen to the St Johns since water was invented.

How accessible is this to the public??  This is the Riverkeeper/JU/SJWMD partnership facility right??  Do you think they'd be willing to maintain an exhibit at the Zoo? 

Or, is there a way to connect the two via the St Johns?  Something like; if you sign up for the River package at either location, you're ferried between the two while given a guided tour of both areas and the river itself.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 16, 2011, 04:00:53 PM
Just showing an example of a successful one in a similar environment and circumstance... :)

Yes! Thank you for showing the Chattanooga's Tennessee Aquarium. It is one of the most successful aquariums in United States in terms of its impact around its area including economy, awareness, eco-system, and partnerships.

-Josh

I forgot to mention that on top of an amusement park, aquarium and a naval ship downtown. I also want Sally Industries to put one of their Scooby Doo dark rides in the Landing where Fuddrucker's was going to go. whoooeeee I'm having fun now.

Quote from: wsansewjs on February 16, 2011, 02:59:59 PM
Jacksonville Aquarium would raise the awareness of our local environment and its habitations, especially the Saint Johns River.

How about let's clean up the river, then start sending people out on glass-bottomed boats. I always love those things (river might be too naturally sediment-laden, I donno).

Are those pics of Chattanooga? While the actual aquarium building with the Louvre pyramids is a bit...much (though I bet its cool from the inside...guessing thats a rainforest?), the view from the river is sweet. Granted the pic is obviously during a festival or concert or something, but it looks good (at least from this angle).

Chattanooga's aquarium does fit well into their urban environment.  Any idea on what it cost to construct it?

Quote from: mtraininjax on February 16, 2011, 02:06:09 PM
Can we please get serious???....I'd like to see a water park next to the river.

I want to build an artifical surf park in Downtown. Jax has one if not the highest concentration
of surfers on the east coast. If its done correctly, it would be one, if not the only, of its kind.
Tropical lagoon in walt disneyworld offers after hour "surf" sessions, but the prices are ridiculous, $10 per wave, and the quality lacking.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 16, 2011, 05:49:25 PM
Chattanooga's aquarium does fit well into their urban environment.  Any idea on what it cost to construct it?

Quite a bit I imagine.  I have visited it as I believe you have.  There was probably a huge controversy between those who wanted to it and those who did not.  I am not advocating for or against an aquarium... simply showing what others have done.  It looks good... seems to integrate well with the surrounding DT fabric, it certainly promotes walkability... many of the features we advocate are incorporated into the design of this facility.

No doubt.  Expensive projects can be designed to fit in with the urban context with good planning.  As for me, I'm just getting tired of people in this city believing that creating a virbant core immediately means we have to invest public money in some super expensive gimmick project.  The best thing we could do for downtown is to simply remove the restrictive public policies that limit urban creativity, encourage pedestrian oriented connectivity, get out the way and allow the natural market to take control.

Agree 100% Lake!

Might be nice to combine elements of these two venues into an aquarium. The first is Oklahoma City's Myriad Gardens - Crystal Bridge a tropical paradise entirely indoors under glass. The next is Monterrey Bay Aquarium in California which is so spaced out it even has it's own new age sound track.

I tend to agree with lakelander, that "needing" and "wanting" a gimmick attraction to draw crowds is two different things. We don't need a damn thing, however having some cool even world class attractions downtown will draw in more of those who don't live, work, or play in the urban core, then a new Publix will.  Bottom line? We don't need MOSH, we don't need Friendship Fountain, we don't need a Riverwalk, but it would be hard to argue that they don't better our quality of life, or draw people downtown.

Tie all of these together with a vintage or heritage streetcar line and you create a string of pearls that a local family or out of state visitor could easily spend a couple of days exploring. I won't come downtown to see a Lazy-Boy, Ethan Allen, or Scan Design Store, but I sure as hell would if there was an IKEA. So the way I see it
we don't need any attractions, but they sure are nice to have and give some of us the excuse to get away to the city now and then.

OCKLAWAHA

Ocklawaha,

Any idea how much more frequently visited (if at all) Crystal Bridge is since OKC experienced revitalization in Bricktown and downtown?

When my sister lived there in the 90s it seemed to me to be a very nice but relatively ignored amenity.

Ock, I think you're distorting my message.  My point is, everyone realizes we have no money and that pedestrian level connectivity and the clustering of complementing uses in a compact setting creates vibrancy.  However, instead of concentrating on the things that actual build an organic sustainable urban environment, we continue to get caught up and spend more time concentrating on big time gimmicks to lure in tourist and suburbanites.  All in all, I agree with this statement Dougskiles made a few pages back:

Quote from: dougskiles on February 16, 2011, 06:50:22 AM
How about this for an idea:

We make all of downtown a theme park - and the theme is ... a thriving downtown.  Great shopping, awesome food, creative performances, efficient transportation, exciting business activity.  Just imagine how cool that would be.

Most theme parks I have visited work hard at creating a 'Main Street' feel.  We already have it.  We don't need gimmicky rides to bring people downtown.  We need a functional downtown to bring people downtown.  This is being tremendously overcomplicated.  There are a few simple elements that have been presented on this forum for several years now.  The most basic of these should be implemented first before we get into expensive complicated projects trying to jump start the area.

Follow this inexpensive pattern (as far as public investment goes) and the big ticket items will fall in line.

I am all for raising awareness about our ecology.  And I am all for providing people some way of amusing themselves.  I can think of no better way to accomplish both downtown by restoring Hogans Creek.  Spend far less money than an aquarium would cost and we could have something truly unique.  A recreational urban water way.  Provide demonstration projects along the way for clean energy and low-impact-development; and we have a living laboratory.  There is no need for people to see these things inside a building with artificial light and recycled air.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 16, 2011, 03:11:15 PM
Didn't Atlanta's aquarium cost something like $200 million to construct?  Assuming the city could pony up the suggested $40 million for this theme park concept, do people really believe that this is the best way to spend $40 million in DT?  Today, between this and the HSR nonsense, I'm developing a huge headache.  Why do we make simple things so difficult?

yep...and their recent expansion plans (which include marineland in Flagler County btw) are another $120+ million.

As for your headache, today was quite possibly the worst day in my 15+ year urban planning career.

Quote from: mtraininjax on February 16, 2011, 03:37:33 PM

QuoteHowever, our town is a bunch of hillbillies

Yup, Lingerie Football Playoffs proved that much!

not exactly...less than 5,000 people showed up

TUFSU..how could today have been your worst day?? haha

i do think  it'd be a cool view from a ferris wheel along the river

Quote from: fsujax on February 16, 2011, 09:21:14 PM
TUFSU..how could today have been your worst day?? haha

ok...most disappointing day

Man I feel like 20,000 pounds has been lifted off of me. I'm gonna sleep like a baby, definitely the most encouraging day I've had in years.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
Might be nice to combine elements of these two venues into an aquarium. The first is Oklahoma City's Myriad Gardens - Crystal Bridge a tropical paradise entirely indoors under glass. The next is Monterrey Bay Aquarium in California which is so spaced out it even has it's own new age sound track.

(http://www.inetours.com/CA-Coast/images/Monterey/MBA_Decks_4618.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YK8p3Om_Hpk/THFlNdJcb1I/AAAAAAAABJs/Pz7fcJEFVwQ/s1600/Monterey_bay_aquarium.jpg)

As I recall the Monterey Bay aquarium was on Cannery Row which is a tourist area out there any way. I know Cannery Row was there but who came first the tourist or the aquarium is unknown to me.  Its real strength was that it was nicely placed on the bay and had displays of the natural local environment.   For example the kelp bed tank shown above.  Atlanta was hard pressed to find anything “local". It appeared to be just a place to pack kids into.  Kind of a MOSH with water.  Tampa like Monterey has an excellent local water exhibit on the mangrove habitat.   Our coffee water, marsh mud  displays might not show as well at those clear water exhibits. But could be as interesting. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2011, 09:16:58 PM
As for your headache, today was quite possibly the worst day in my 15+ year urban planning career.

After these kinds of days, I like to recall a quote from Gust Avrakotos in the movie Charlie Wilson’s War:

QuoteThere's a little boy and on his 14th birthday he gets a horse... and everybody in the village says, "how wonderful. The boy got a horse" And the Zen master says, "we'll see." Two years later, the boy falls off the horse, breaks his leg, and everyone in the village says, "How terrible." And the Zen master says, "We'll see." Then, a war breaks out and all the young men have to go off and fight... except the boy can't cause his legs all messed up. and everybody in the village says, "How wonderful."

QuoteAs I recall the Monterey Bay aquarium was on Cannery Row which is a tourist area out there any way. I know Cannery Row was there but who came first the tourist or the aquarium is unknown to me.  Its real strength was that it was nicely placed on the bay and had displays of the natural local environment.

I lived in nearby Marina while the aquarium was being built.  To answer your question... the tourists were there first.  Cannery row was made famous by John Steinbeck and Pebble Beach, Carmel, and Monterey Bay were already tourist attractions.  The aquarium revitalized a rather dreary/rundown Cannery row area into what it is today.

Quote from: Overstreet on February 17, 2011, 05:04:39 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 16, 2011, 07:30:58 PM
Might be nice to combine elements of these two venues into an aquarium. The first is Oklahoma City's Myriad Gardens - Crystal Bridge a tropical paradise entirely indoors under glass. The next is Monterrey Bay Aquarium in California which is so spaced out it even has it's own new age sound track.

(http://www.inetours.com/CA-Coast/images/Monterey/MBA_Decks_4618.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YK8p3Om_Hpk/THFlNdJcb1I/AAAAAAAABJs/Pz7fcJEFVwQ/s1600/Monterey_bay_aquarium.jpg)

Is this where they filmed part of  Star Trek 1V? You know, the one about the Wales.

QuoteWe don't need MOSH, we don't need Friendship Fountain, we don't need a Riverwalk, but it would be hard to argue that they don't better our quality of life, or draw people downtown.

This was my point all along.  In the past decade, we have added one quality of life amenity to downtown.  The new Library.

QuoteThe best thing we could do for downtown is to simply remove the restrictive public policies that limit urban creativity, encourage pedestrian oriented connectivity, get out the way and allow the natural market to take control.

The natural market that gave us such walkable and pedestrian oriented structures as the Haskell building, Elkins Construction, Fresenius Medical Center, The St Joe Building, Interline Brands, The Modis Building, The Landing, FSCJ, FBC, and not to mention all of our pedestrian oriented government buildings downtown?  That natural market??

Cannery Row East would be in Jacksonville had we not dynamited the entire waterfront, warehouses, wharves and piers, downtown. IMAGINE!

But I understand, we MUST Dynamite the Herkimer Block. It should only take "one more building" for us to be a first tier city.

OCKLAWAHA

It might end up like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcja8UBtXdk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcja8UBtXdk)

You have to watch that video. It is totally creepy. Six Flags New Orleans.

Quote from: Dapperdan on February 17, 2011, 09:51:06 AM
It might end up like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcja8UBtXdk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcja8UBtXdk)

You have to watch that video. It is totally creepy. Six Flags New Orleans.

That is creepy--I like the "Welcome 2 Zombie-Land Kids" sign. 
It reminds me of the abandoned amusement park in Miyazaki's "Spirited Away".

QuoteYup, Lingerie Football Playoffs proved that much!


not exactly...less than 5,000 people showed up

But the fact that 5,000 people showed up in the City's new Arena was incredible. Our stigma as backward is still long and strong here in town. Can't shake that until we become more progressive in so many areas.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 17, 2011, 09:23:10 AM

QuoteThe best thing we could do for downtown is to simply remove the restrictive public policies that limit urban creativity, encourage pedestrian oriented connectivity, get out the way and allow the natural market to take control.

The natural market that gave us such walkable and pedestrian oriented structures as the Haskell building, Elkins Construction, Fresenius Medical Center, The St Joe Building, Interline Brands, The Modis Building, The Landing, FSCJ, FBC, and not to mention all of our pedestrian oriented government buildings downtown?  That natural market??

Glad you quoted me.  Yes, that natural market.  The uses aren't bad, their layouts are because we have policies that facility the style of that type of development (which is why I stated the whole "pedestrian level connectivity" part you accidently overlooked).

So you want to remove public policies and then add back new ones?? 
From the sound of it, you wanted total deregulation and then magically it would all fit together. 

I normally agree with you, but I've lost faith that the downtown market can be totally salvaged by deregulation.  We have far too many uninformed and money hungry developers that would snatch up every available block and drop a Wendy's or a convenience store, which would be possible in your unregulated downtown.

But that's not what you want.  You want to remove regulations and then add back new ones.  Got it.

Nope.  Just remove the policies that prohibit or facilitate the development of non-pedestrian scale development in DT and the urban core.  Doing so will go a long way in enhancing the style of connectivity needed to generate walkable synergy.  This will be needed regardless of whatever multimillion dollar one-trick pony project people latch on and believe will singlehandedly save DT's day.

Btw, although I never said anything about an individual use, there's nothing wrong with a Wendy's or a convenience store, assuming they wanted to be a part of the urban scene.  We have plenty of empty retail spaces and infill sites they could invest in.  However, what would be wrong is keeping land use and zoning regulations that encourage suburban auto-oriented building and site layouts in DT and the surrounding neighborhoods.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 17, 2011, 12:33:20 PM
hungry developers that would snatch up every available block and drop a Wendy's

I'm hungry too and would LOVE a wendy's downtown.

Sure was.... Can't believe they did not stay....Seems like there would still be a need for one in the downtown area.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 16, 2011, 06:49:17 PM
The best thing we could do for downtown is to simply remove the restrictive public policies that limit urban creativity, encourage pedestrian (WATER),(RIVER) oriented connectivity, get out the way and allow the natural market to take control.

Lake, Your killing me. Keep the Bay St. Pier our Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier outside of the 40 plus acre gated theme park that will be controlled by the DIA. The jaguars used containers and had a ticket window next to them. We are a port city and some containers on the pier could be used for businesses and create jobs immediately. Imagine a zipline from the Berkman to the Pier!     

Quote from: Bativac on February 15, 2011, 03:18:34 PM
In case anyone is curious I did some reading about a place called AutoWorld that opened in Flint, MI back in the 1980s.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2009/07/they_needed_more_thrill_lookin.html

Here's a site complete with pictures.

http://toysaregoodfood.com/blog/index.php/2003/09/01/six-flags-autoworld/#more-566

A neat idea. It failed spectacularly... as I suspect a similar idea would in Jacksonville.

It sounds like Autoworld was the worst in edutainment money could buy.

Reminds of the scene from Roger and Me. Me and My Buddy!!!!

QuoteThere was a wendy's for many years.

Used to love going to the downtown library as my dad and I would always hit up the Super Bar @ Wendys.  I once surmised they went out of business b/c we literally ate away their profit margins.

Certainly seems there would be space and customer base enough in just downtown to support a Wendys

They should resurrect the Wendys in the empty retail space at the Dowtown Library, since that was originally where it was located.

I believe that the first Wendy's was in downtown Columbus and fit in nicely to the surrounding urban area.

(http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/images/oh/OHCOLwendys_mw01.jpg)

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/10328 (http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/10328)

One of my clients is a Wendy's franchisee.  They are looking at sites all over Jax for expansion.  I just emailed him about a potential downtown store.  He seemed interested.  What would be the best location?

I would assume that he would require a drive through?

Between state and union.  I would prefer it more in the heart of downtown but that busy street has lots of traffic and can draw from Springfield as well as downtown.

Traffic wise, somewhere between State & Union or Main and Ocean.  In the next year or so, depending on how things play out, the courthouse area or the Landing might not be bad ideas either.

Quote from: fsujax on February 22, 2011, 07:26:49 PM
I would assume that he would require a drive through?

I live in Brooklyn.  There are lots of McDonalds, Taco Bells, Burger Kings, and Wendy's that are in standard commercial areas at the ground floor of a building.  No need for a drive through.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-a9dTTt1VNQ/Sunq1w9hmqI/AAAAAAAAEI4/796gUOu7yZY/s1024/IMG_7460.jpg)


In other news... a theme park, huh?
If these dudes want to build a theme park in the north bank then they need to make it like Coney Island in Brooklyn or Luna Park in Sydney.  And have attractions that will bring people year round.  Shit like laser tag, bowling, and roller rink will insure year round use.  A small ballroom, holds less than 500 people, that can be used for live music and parties would work well.  Facing the riverwalk there could be vendors like this:
(http://www.z-mation.com/phpbb/files/ny_coney_island_boardwalk_13_553.jpg)
A lot of you were saying that most people would visit once a year, or visit once and then maybe a few years later.
If there are monthly events that take place there and non-ride attractions that could be used year round, I don't see why this area wouldn't become a major destination.  On any weekend you could head down to the park and grab some food at a river side seafood café, catch the freak show, go bowling, see a band play, grab a beer at a bar, look at useless crap in shops...
As long as it's not just, "here's a Ferris wheel, here's a roller coaster," then I think a theme park/entertainment compound could work well and attract a lot of people.  Will it detour people from having their vacation in Orlando?  No, but it will definitely bring some extra life to downtown.  Is it the smartest idea?  No, but it's better than a parking garage or a church.

What about putting some year round attractions at the fairgrounds?

A pier coaster might be one of the things to set such a small park apart. The one in SANTA MONICA at the other end of I-10 is very popular. If you've never seen such an animal in action check out this video.

BTW, Coney Island AND Luna were both "Trolley Parks."

http://www.youtube.com/v/mkUEhqd_o3s?fs=1&hl=en_US

OCKLAWAHA

Again, why would we want to put something like this on one of our last pieces of riverfront property and pay up to $40mm for it?  Is that really the best ROI for that property and for public tax dollars? Why not on a surface parking lot in the Sports District somewhere?

.....or in one of the blighted , razed and pretty much vacant areas adjacent to downtown... Like La Villa or Brooklyn... what are they? 3-4 minutes from the heart of downtown?

What's the story with this area?
(http://www.killerdillerrecords.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/southbank.jpg)

That is the site of the former Southside Generating Station that was razed a couple years ago. No idea if any development is ever gonna go there, but it certainly is a good sized chunk of land.

They have some contamination issues to deal with as I understand it.  Nothing dire just some cost involved to development.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2011, 08:55:18 PM
Again, why would we want to put something like this on one of our last pieces of riverfront property and pay up to $40mm for it?  Is that really the best ROI for that property and for public tax dollars? Why not on a surface parking lot in the Sports District somewhere?

Actually my favorite place for it would be along Hogan's Creek, and have ALL OF THE LAND along the creek cleaned up and themed, with hotels trolley park, and NOONES BOAT TOURS... Al la Oklahoma City, Reno or San Antonio. Actually I think Hogan's creek is prettier and it really could be a old style, laid back, park with some scattered rides... The worst part of ANY of these locations is the damn JAIL and POLICE HQ and all the sundry slime that collects nearby.

"If I were King..."

Maxwell House would anchor the South end of the Hogans Creek Trolley Park...

It would have actual pavilion's in the style of Dixieland or Klutho...

There would be southern rock and blues, negro league, and AP Randolph museums and educational venues along both sides of the creek with little arched bridges connecting them... while a world class naval museum might spring from something like Berkman II.

There would be a Fairy Forest for the really little ones where they could crawl through the old woman's shoe, or Sing a Song of Six Pence and head for the Black Pearl...

Pirates of the Caribbean designers would be coming up here to learn how to do it...

Hotels in the style of old inns would be fighting for location along with restaurants, and the whole creek side would be busier then St. George Street on Mardi Gras.

Noone would have the killer Canoe and Kayak outfitter of the Southeast with shuttle vans taking visitors beyond to Pottsburg, Julington, and Pumpkin Hill Creeks, and he'd be busy as hell.

Vintage Streetcars would circulate into and out of the park along the Beaver Street Alignment and on Duval...

The Pier would be the Jacksonville Quay... crab boats and charter fishing boats would leave and arrive daily with sea and river treasures, and we'd even figure out how to use a tin roof and keep it cool.

Marineland-Georgia Aquarium would be ready to announce new digs in the hole Peyton Created from Kids Place.

A couple of glass and steel higher rise hotels would be perched on the riverfront.... and they might have some condos to rent.

Those who think a roller coaster on the Quay would be cool, might get their wish.

The Riverwalk would be connected from east of the Landing to Metropolitan Park with a Schweeb Monorail, and below the track people would jog and walk among life size bronzes of locals like: Tom Mix, Doc Holliday, Babe Hardy and Billie Burke...and a ugly creature would be affixed to the railing crawling out of the dark "lagoon," as a family Kodak moment.

Within the hotel-quay-pier development there might be anything from a CVS store and urban Publix, to an IKEA and BASS PRO.

The Skyway to the Stadium District would be a reality and the Jaguars and TV networks would vie for a shot of that one-of-a-kind-stadium with a monorail train rolling in, they would be it's biggest cheerleaders.

Naw, LAKELANDER, I wouldn't put a roller coaster on the pier, I'd change the shape of East Jacksonville and write it's name high enough that people would include it in sentences with terms like DISNEY, UNIVERSAL, BUSCH and ST AUGUSTINE.

IF ONLY I WERE KING!

SMH.. Nobody wants none of that you guys talking about.. Stop making Jacksonville so boring.. People are looking for fun and learning about a fish in an aquarium is not one of them.. Make attractions with theme park rides, roller coaster and other fun things to do.. it could even a lil learning thing too but at the same time you got libraries and schools for learning

Quote from: Duuuvalboy on February 22, 2011, 11:50:42 PM
SMH.. Nobody wants none of that you guys talking about.. Stop making Jacksonville so boring.. People are looking for fun and learning about a fish in an aquarium is not one of them.. Make attractions with theme park rides, roller coaster and other fun things to do.. it could even a lil learning thing too but at the same time you got libraries and schools for learning

I can't tell if this is serious or not.

OCk, great pics but to be honest, you would need a lot more than $40 million to pull that vision off.

It seems to me that in the past a lot of successful (at the time) cities had their own amusement parks.  I grew up in Youngstown, Ohio when the local amusement parks were beginning to struggle.  There were like four or five we could get to from Youngstown in a few hours.  The ones that had the space and were located in areas that drew tourists seemed to survive pretty well. Like perhaps Cedar Point in Sandusky, Ohio.  Most, like Idora Park in Youngstown, disappeared in the eighties, certainly by the nineties.  Jacksonville has a very small one left, how is it doing?

In my mind, it was the traveling mentality of the public, the need to get away by car rather than the original trolley ride to the park, that killed the smaller local amusement parks as much as anything.  What is different today that would make anyone think a small local park would be successful?

Whatever the city happens to do with the Shipyards site, I hope it's something that people will want to use at all times of the day. Be it retail, residential.. whatever. I would hate to have something built there that people only visit during the daytime and then doesn't help contribute to Downtown being active after 5pm. IMO, that's one of the main things wrong with Downtown. It's geared towards the daytime work mass and after they leave their jobs at 5pm, downtown is dead. Give people a reason to choose to go downtown over going to SJTC or the Beach for happy hours or nightlife, or just to spend the day in general. Yeah, maybe a theme park isn't the greatest idea for the Shipyards area. Maybe we should repurpose Metro Park for something like that. Seems like it would get more use than what it does outside of the occasional outdoor concerts and World of Nations types of events. It does seem that Jacksonville residents clamor for those types of things. Even when there's a bootleg version of the fair setup in Regency Mall's parking lot, there always seems to be people over there with their kids. IF I had kids, I would consider that a better option that going to something like Adventure Landing...

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 22, 2011, 11:07:10 PM
IF ONLY I WERE KING!

I think you mean "If I had a genie and unlimited wishes."

The skyway going into Everbank (right behind the Bud Zone) would be great. Hell, I'd run it through Maxwell House to get it from Bay to Adams, then out Adams with stops connected to the arena, the baseball field, and Everbank. It would only need to stop at the places when an event was happening. And employees at those places (+ First Coast News and everything between there and Hemming Park).

Does Maxwell House do tours?

I like the skyway as a means to connect the southbank and San Marco to downtown.  After that, I think a streetcar system would be a much better way of getting to the sports complex.  Much less expensive too.  And we might even be able to get it operational before the Jaguars leave Jacksonville!

Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 23, 2011, 10:20:49 AM
Does Maxwell House do tours?

I don't think so.

QuoteDoes Maxwell House do tours?

They don't, but a really cool tour you should consider taking downtown is Sally Industries where they make the animatronics for theme parks.

Then swing over to the Maritime Museum at the Landing then to the museum at the Ritz Theatre... all free.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 23, 2011, 10:56:10 AM
I like the skyway as a means to connect the southbank and San Marco to downtown.  After that, I think a streetcar system would be a much better way of getting to the sports complex.  Much less expensive too.  And we might even be able to get it operational before the Jaguars leave Jacksonville!

The expense is certainly an issue that I didn't address. I would lean towards Skyway to the stadiums just as a way to reduce transfers. There's no reason, to my knowledge, to go beyond the stadiums in that direction, so you'd have a very short streetcar line. If coming from Riverside, you'd need to take streetcar, skyway, streetcar (assuming any of this is built) for a very short distance. From San Marco or Southbank, you'd still have to take skyway then streetcar. I just don't think having the extra line is worth it if its only going that far. Also, going to the stadium, you don't have the issue that you do in the historic neighborhoods of the appropriateness of an elevated "futuristic" train not fitting in (yes, that was the best I could word that sentence).

But again, the expense is an important consideration. And if the streetcar line went, say, from Avondale through to the stadium (connecting at Hemming Park I'd recommend), then it would work better than requiring use of the Skyway to get across a short span of DT.

^ Good points.  If there is an urban neighborhood wide streetcar system, with an extension towards the stadium, that makes sense.  If you're running multiple lines, it makes more sense to continue the skyway.  Separate streetcar lines would need separate trolley barns, maintenance facilities, operations facilities, and other duplicated components, which would probably bring the cost up to the level of extending the skyway.

The way I see it, you have a streetcar line running from Riverside/Avondale to the Sports Complex.  One of the stops would be at the Skyway Central Station (on Bay Street just past Pearl Street).  So it would not require any transfers for that group.  People coming from San Marco would make 1 transfer at Central Station.  Even if they extended the Skyway from Central Station to the Sports Complex, the people from San Marco would likely need to make a transfer because the San Marco line goes to the FSCJ station - although I suppose that could be easily changed on game day.  Either way, making one transfer is not uncommon.  In fact at most subway systems I have ridden, one transfer is the norm.

I would go as far as throwing STJR a bone and removing the portions of the Skyway between the Prime Osborne and Central Station - because it would be duplicated by the streetcar.  Then extend the Skyway from the FSCJ station along Hogans Creek to Shands at 8th Street.  This section would not involve as many street crossings and would not be a street killer as many claim the Skyway to be along Hogan Street between Central Station and Hemming Plaza.

I used to think the streetcar should run on Riverside Ave, but after looking at it on Google Earth, it probably does more good on Park Street through Brooklyn so that it can help to revitalize that area as a pedestrian friendly neighborhood.

The streetcar O&M could be right next to the Skyway O&M and probably share staff and portions of the facility.

Here is a non-transportation planner's idea...  be sure to scroll the image right to see the entire thing.

(http://i56.tinypic.com/mtmhbc.jpg)

Quote from: dougskiles on February 23, 2011, 03:38:40 PM
I used to think the streetcar should run on Riverside Ave, but after looking at it on Google Earth, it probably does more good on Park Street through Brooklyn so that it can help to revitalize that area as a pedestrian friendly neighborhood.

You're probably right about that, but due to all the businesses right on Riverside, that would be a tougher sell for the powers that be. I do think it should run on Park (especially in Riverside - maybe switch to another street in Avondale as it starts to curve out) just for the purpose of increasing access. If its running on Riverside, its super convenient for people between Riverside and the river but less convenient for people, say, on Post or further. If you move it to Park, its still quite convenient for people on Riverside, but its significantly more convenient for people the other way. Of course, none of this argument gives consideration to right of way and constructability, etc.

The LRTP and Mobility Plan envision streetcar running on Park from the convention center, then jogging over to Riverside Avenue through the old Brooklyn Park area...in Riverside, the streetcar would run on Oak Street (where it used to be back in the day) to King....then up King to Park

Quote from: dougskiles on February 23, 2011, 03:38:40 PM
This section would not involve as many street crossings and would not be a street killer as many claim the Skyway to be along Hogan Street between Central Station and Hemming Plaza.

I don't understand Jacksonville's fixation on "something dead." Street killing roads? Street killing monorails? Even Business killing parking meters...

I think it all boils down to using what we have and making something great out of it. Take HOGAN STREET, dead by most opinions, yet it is above all other downtown streets, thanks to the Skyway, an opportunity to create a focal point downtown. Ever hear of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon?


This would sort of bring a whole new meaning to Jacksonville's hanging baskets, and I bet grants and garden clubs would cause it to cost ZERO!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 23, 2011, 08:07:39 PM
The LRTP and Mobility Plan envision streetcar running on Park from the convention center, then jogging over to Riverside Avenue through the old Brooklyn Park area...in Riverside, the streetcar would run on Oak Street (where it used to be back in the day) to King....then up King to Park

That's not too bad.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 23, 2011, 09:58:14 PM
I think it all boils down to using what we have and making something great out of it. Take HOGAN STREET, dead by most opinions, yet it is above all other downtown streets, thanks to the Skyway, an opportunity to create a focal point downtown. Ever hear of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon?

We could probably just do that ourselves. And I'd rather the city not be involved, honestly. Actually, I don't think you could do this too well on Hogan. Sidewalks aren't that wide, buildings and Skyway give it reduced sun exposure. I don't think you could pull off that feel right there. I think you'd have to put something like that on the sidewalk right outside of a park (people probably wouldn't want it on the sidewalk in front of their house, and it would look weird), probably in the outer core. Again though, no city government. They should be spending their money on business and housing incentives. Beautifying isn't gonna get anyone downtown.

Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 24, 2011, 08:54:53 AM
We could probably just do that ourselves. And I'd rather the city not be involved, honestly. Actually, I don't think you could do this too well on Hogan. Sidewalks aren't that wide, buildings and Skyway give it reduced sun exposure. I don't think you could pull off that feel right there. I think you'd have to put something like that on the sidewalk right outside of a park (people probably wouldn't want it on the sidewalk in front of their house, and it would look weird), probably in the outer core. Again though, no city government. They should be spending their money on business and housing incentives. Beautifying isn't gonna get anyone downtown.

Very good point.  Most people probably don't know that the beautification efforts in San Marco Square are paid for by the San Marco Merchant's Association with dues and fundraising events.  SMPS also chips in with special projects.  The city performs basic maintenance on a few items.  The rest is paid for by the community.

Another area that could be turned into a 'hanging garden' is the section beneath the Skyway between the San Marco Station and Riverplace Station.  I have even thought that it would be cool to setup shipping containers (similar to what has been discussed for the pier) in certain areas and provide them to artists for studios.

Actually we'd have plenty of room to work under the Skyway along Hogan. The primary structural addition would fit between the Skyway and the Buildings which is a swath about 15 feet wide. As for directly under it, there is some parking and we'd have to close a few spaces at a time while trellis supports and plants were installed.

Anyone that thinks this would somehow "take away from Hogan" hasn't been on that sidewalk at 2 pm on the 10Th of July! 

I'm not delusional enough to think this would be a magic bullet for downtown, however as it matured, it would become a major artistic focal point. I'd be willing to bet that within a few years studios and coffee shops would be laying claim to the entire strip. Unique streets CAN become something of an attraction themselves, Rodeo Drive, Worth Avenue, Park Avenue, Olvera Street, Lombard Street...etc.

OCKLAWAHA

What about Ocklawaha Street?  ;D

-Josh

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 24, 2011, 10:42:06 AM
Actually we'd have plenty of room to work under the Skyway along Hogan. The primary structural addition would fit between the Skyway and the Buildings which is a swath about 15 feet wide. As for directly under it, there is some parking and we'd have to close a few spaces at a time while trellis supports and plants were installed.

Anyone that thinks this would somehow "take away from Hogan" hasn't been on that sidewalk at 2 pm on the 10Th of July! 

I'm not delusional enough to think this would be a magic bullet for downtown, however as it matured, it would become a major artistic focal point. I'd be willing to bet that within a few years studios and coffee shops would be laying claim to the entire strip. Unique streets CAN become something of an attraction themselves, Rodeo Drive, Worth Avenue, Park Avenue, Olvera Street, Lombard Street...etc.

OCKLAWAHA

Most people have no vision.  I think you have a exceptional idea.  I not only hope it could come to fruition I would help.  This would add so much to the character of downtown and would be memorable to anyone who has seen it.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 23, 2011, 10:56:10 AM
I like the skyway as a means to connect the southbank and San Marco to downtown.  After that, I think a streetcar system would be a much better way of getting to the sports complex.  Much less expensive too.  And we might even be able to get it operational before the Jaguars leave Jacksonville!

+1. I need to ride the skyway again. Its been years. The streetcar shot from Prime Osborn to the stadium on Bay St. would be a positive project.

I know I don't follow the mobility threads but is this in the plans? If not is it something that needs to be given more of a priority given the potential Govt. takeover of the Entertainment district by the DIA?

Ask anybody that you see in a position of legislative authority especially outside of Duval County if we are witnessing the unveiling right before our eyes the taxpayer ripoff that may be called Shipyards III