Just a follow up to the JEA hate thread. ;D
http://www.news4jax.com/money/26733154/detail.html
Just look at who is the lead dog.
Quote from: Ralph W on February 04, 2011, 12:50:51 AM
Just a follow up to the JEA hate thread. ;D
http://www.news4jax.com/money/26733154/detail.html
Just look at who is the lead dog.
That's not a lot of money for a CEO position for a company the size of JEA.
Then again this is Jacksonville and we pay our people less. Actually, the salaries of most people in Jacksonville (both public and private) are low except for some people who work for international companies doing international stuff who just happens to be in Jacksonville for some reason.
This article is depressing. Especially for a city that once influenced the country :(
But it is a publicly owned company, not a private company.
"94 of the JEAs 1,979 employees are paid six-figure salaries. While that seems high, it is comparable to the pay at other utilities in the state."
For a publicly owned company, that is complete BS. Comparable to what other cities? Tampa? Orlando? Miami? Now look at cost of living, and of course the fact that this is a publicly held company.
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 07:30:32 AMNow look at cost of living, and of course the fact that this is a publicly held company.
That's even more depressing. Low paying jobs in a cheap city in a cheap state. It's like the only thing we can afford here is cheap stuff.
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 07:30:32 AM
But it is a publicly owned company, not a private company.
"94 of the JEAs 1,979 employees are paid six-figure salaries. While that seems high, it is comparable to the pay at other utilities in the state."
For a publicly owned company, that is complete BS. Comparable to what other cities? Tampa? Orlando? Miami? Now look at cost of living, and of course the fact that this is a publicly held company.
well many of the other utilities in Florida are also publicly owned (like orlando, lakeland, Gainesville, and Tallahassee)....also, Jax. cost of living is on par with Orlando and Miami
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2011, 08:16:26 AM
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 07:30:32 AM
But it is a publicly owned company, not a private company.
"94 of the JEAs 1,979 employees are paid six-figure salaries. While that seems high, it is comparable to the pay at other utilities in the state."
For a publicly owned company, that is complete BS. Comparable to what other cities? Tampa? Orlando? Miami? Now look at cost of living, and of course the fact that this is a publicly held company.
well many of the other utilities in Florida are also publicly owned (like orlando, lakeland, Gainesville, and Tallahassee)....also, Jax. cost of living is on par with Orlando and Miami
1: Are you saying that the other publicly owned utilities have a couple hundred people all making $100k-$200k a year?
2: Did you really just say Jacksonville's cost of living is the same as Miami?
(especially the secomd comment, I'll give you fair opportunity to retract it before I blow it up)
LOL you beat me too it Chris.
JAX is a cheap city, because the avg pay scale in JAX is poor. when the avg worker is making between 37-45 K a yr in Jax it is CRAZY that you have JEA workers getting paid so much. They should be working in the avg pay scale for the area, not getting paid what someone in Miami is!
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 12:33:27 PM
LOL you beat me too it Chris.
JAX is a cheap city, because the avg pay scale in JAX is poor. when the avg worker is making between 37-45 K a yr in Jax it is CRAZY that you have JEA workers getting paid so much. They should be working in the avg pay scale for the area, not getting paid what someone in Miami is!
The skills needed to run a a power company is way different then that needed to run a call center. If you reduce the salary of every JEA employee to around 37K, I'm moving out of this city ASAP because I don't know who your going to hire at that salary.
Though either way, it really doesn't matter. It's hard to take people seriously on issues like since this is brought up so many times.
If JEA was a private company and the CEO made $1.1 mil, nobody would be complaining about the CEO salary, right? It's a private company!
Quote from: cityimrov on February 04, 2011, 03:31:04 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 12:33:27 PM
LOL you beat me too it Chris.
JAX is a cheap city, because the avg pay scale in JAX is poor. when the avg worker is making between 37-45 K a yr in Jax it is CRAZY that you have JEA workers getting paid so much. They should be working in the avg pay scale for the area, not getting paid what someone in Miami is!
The skills needed to run a a power company is way different then that needed to run a call center. If you reduce the salary of every JEA employee to around 37K, I'm moving out of this city ASAP because I don't know who your going to hire at that salary.
Though either way, it really doesn't matter. It's hard to take people seriously since issues like this is brought up so many times. If JEA was a private company and the CEO made $1.1 mil, nobody would be complaining about the CEO salary, right?
Useless comparison. JEA is not a private company.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 03:33:25 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on February 04, 2011, 03:31:04 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 12:33:27 PM
LOL you beat me too it Chris.
JAX is a cheap city, because the avg pay scale in JAX is poor. when the avg worker is making between 37-45 K a yr in Jax it is CRAZY that you have JEA workers getting paid so much. They should be working in the avg pay scale for the area, not getting paid what someone in Miami is!
The skills needed to run a a power company is way different then that needed to run a call center. If you reduce the salary of every JEA employee to around 37K, I'm moving out of this city ASAP because I don't know who your going to hire at that salary.
Though either way, it really doesn't matter. It's hard to take people seriously since issues like this is brought up so many times. If JEA was a private company and the CEO made $1.1 mil, nobody would be complaining about the CEO salary, right?
Useless comparison. JEA is not a private company.
So, what salary should JEA CEO be paid? An approximate number would be fine.
Quote from: cityimrov on February 04, 2011, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 03:33:25 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on February 04, 2011, 03:31:04 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 12:33:27 PM
LOL you beat me too it Chris.
JAX is a cheap city, because the avg pay scale in JAX is poor. when the avg worker is making between 37-45 K a yr in Jax it is CRAZY that you have JEA workers getting paid so much. They should be working in the avg pay scale for the area, not getting paid what someone in Miami is!
The skills needed to run a a power company is way different then that needed to run a call center. If you reduce the salary of every JEA employee to around 37K, I'm moving out of this city ASAP because I don't know who your going to hire at that salary.
Though either way, it really doesn't matter. It's hard to take people seriously since issues like this is brought up so many times. If JEA was a private company and the CEO made $1.1 mil, nobody would be complaining about the CEO salary, right?
Useless comparison. JEA is not a private company.
So, what salary should JEA CEO be paid? An approximate number would be fine.
A salary commensurate with the other City department heads.
And I question why we have a couple hundred people working for this agency making 6-figures, and as many more within $10k or so of 6-figures. Seems kind of off the charts compared to the rest of the city government. The point being, they are running this like a private business, and it isn't one.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on February 04, 2011, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 03:33:25 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on February 04, 2011, 03:31:04 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 12:33:27 PM
LOL you beat me too it Chris.
JAX is a cheap city, because the avg pay scale in JAX is poor. when the avg worker is making between 37-45 K a yr in Jax it is CRAZY that you have JEA workers getting paid so much. They should be working in the avg pay scale for the area, not getting paid what someone in Miami is!
The skills needed to run a a power company is way different then that needed to run a call center. If you reduce the salary of every JEA employee to around 37K, I'm moving out of this city ASAP because I don't know who your going to hire at that salary.
Though either way, it really doesn't matter. It's hard to take people seriously since issues like this is brought up so many times. If JEA was a private company and the CEO made $1.1 mil, nobody would be complaining about the CEO salary, right?
Useless comparison. JEA is not a private company.
So, what salary should JEA CEO be paid? An approximate number would be fine.
A salary commensurate with the other City department heads.
And I question why we have a couple hundred people working for this agency making 6-figures, and as many more within $10k or so of 6-figures. Seems kind of off the charts compared to the rest of the city government. The point being, they are running this like a private business, and it isn't one.
Can you give me a number? It doesn't have to be exact like $195,000.22. An approximate one will be fine.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 08:27:20 AM
2: Did you really just say Jacksonville's cost of living is the same as Miami?
(especially the secomd comment, I'll give you fair opportunity to retract it before I blow it up)
oops...I meant to say Orlando and Tampa....was on my way out of the office for a meeting and rushed!
he should make more than the freaking Mayor? Guess that explains the mayoral representation we have had too? Because like it or not this is a govt position, no matter what three letters you put in his title. Unlike private companies that have to compete for shares, this guy sits at his desk and can decide just about anything and we all gotta take it- period....doesn't seem like a risky position to me, so should not be the highest paid position in our local government.
Seems almost all of the mayoral candidates agree too :-)
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 12:33:27 PM
JAX is a cheap city, because the avg pay scale in JAX is poor. when the avg worker is making between 37-45 K a yr in Jax it is CRAZY that you have JEA workers getting paid so much. They should be working in the avg pay scale for the area, not getting paid what someone in Miami is!
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 03:38:19 PM
A salary commensurate with the other City department heads.
And I question why we have a couple hundred people working for this agency making 6-figures, and as many more within $10k or so of 6-figures. Seems kind of off the charts compared to the rest of the city government. The point being, they are running this like a private business, and it isn't one.
JEA is a utility company. Who owns it really doesn't matter. It takes certain skills and experience to run a utility company of JEA's size and complexity. To attract that qualified person, JEA must compete in the market appropriately. The market is national, not local. There is only one Jax based electric/water/sewer company like JEA so JEA isn't going to hire the person from the company down the street.
Thus, the salary of the head of JEA or any other position within an agency, city department, etc. must be appropriate to attract the right person to the specific job if we want that job well executed. The market for any position reflects all employers, both public and private, competing for the needed talents.
Now, one can debate the quality of the performance of the person filling the job. But, if there is a consensus by those doing the hiring that the employee is doing a good job, the salary will be what the market for that talent dictates. If the consensus of the management is they are not doing the job, the pay needs to be reduced or the person relieved of the job. But, none of this will effect the salary of a competent person. An employer here may also be able to negotiate a lower than average market rate due to having a desirable location, no personal state income tax, etc. but that is merely a fine tuning adjustment working off of the national market rate.
What other people in Jax are paid doing one job has no real bearing on the pay for any other different job. Each different position has a different market. What parking lot attendants make has no direct correlation with what an electrical engineer makes.
Now if JEA is paying above the national market that is a different issue. But, I don't' see that being the complaint being posted here.
As to other 6 figure jobs at JEA, one must again look at the specific job requirements. Making a sweeping statement that those jobs are paid too much just because they are 6 figures makes no sense. If they are electric grid or power plant engineers, etc. or do very dangerous jobs like work on high voltage lines in the middle of a storm, and that's what it takes in the market to fill those positions with competent people, then so be it. If someone makes less, let them go back to college or trade school and become qualified to do those jobs. The more that do so, the less those jobs will pay. It's about supply and demand and that's what free enterprise is all about.
Well said, stjr.
I sooo totally disagree on the count of the CEO. I might agree on the other workers making six figures, but have no idea what roles those are, so cannot really pass judgement on them at this time.
I hire people all over the United States for the same position, same education, same experience level and I certainly do not pay them all the same. I can have an excellent, experienced Phd in the same role as a newly graduated BA and the BA is paid more because they live in SF and the Phd lives in Kansas.
A CEO at a company with absolutely no competetion is not making HUGE decisions and taking huge risks like a CEO at a private corporation. Anyone who thinks the CEO is the driving force in whether an aquisition is made, or has anything at all to do with day to day decisions obviously does not work within the realm of that level of management.
As tax payors and owners we have every right to question the pay, and also to question the position itself. JEA really needs a CFO, and a CTO but in this case, CEO seems like a job you give your golfing buddy. I mean what the hell does he do? Give his rubber stamp on what the real workers are telling himi and for anything big it seems City Council has to be involved anyway. Total waste of money.
These salaries seem pretty steep. Im willing to bet there are persons out there equally qualified for these positions who would do them for alot less.
I hope these overpaid individuals get a dose of reality one day. The sooner the better .
I agree that on the surface these numbers may seem high, but I also know the hours worked and demands placed on many of these folks. These are high-stress, demanding positions and for the most part the salaries are appropriate.
Quote from: riverside planner on February 05, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
I agree that on the surface these numbers may seem high, but I also know the hours worked and demands placed on many of these folks. These are high-stress, demanding positions and for the most part the salaries are appropriate.
No they're not. They're a local government 9-5 with full benefits and a pension. Gimme a break. The people at JEA who have the high stress jobs (the guys actually schlepping around to reconnect your power during storms etc.) make peanuts. Meanwhile, their call center supervisor makes $100k+, and they have 10 people all making about 6 figures assigned to advertise a utility monopoly, LMAO! It's a monopoly, why advertise? Where else are the customers going to go? Seriously, "high stress positions" LMFAO! Give me a break.
I can assure you that when I worked at the COJ Planning Department, 9-5 was a rarity. Try 8-6, 8a-9p, or even 8a-11p. Neighborhood meetings, CPACs, Council Committee meetings and City Council are all part of the job description for most folks in professional positions. There were more than a few weeks that I spent 3 evenings a week at meetings on top of a regular 8 hour workday. Yes, there are some overpaid people there, but I know for a fact that the vast majority of the management-level positions demand far more than 40 hours per week. This is typical in other cities as well. You also get the joy of having irate citizens yelling, emailing, calling and frankly harrassing you for something that is outside of your control. Granted, "whipping boy/girl" is a given part of a public sector job, but when a citizen feels that calling a city employee at home, on a weekend is appropriate, it borders on harrassment. And no, I never gave out my home number. The whackjob looked it up. Unless you've ever worked in one of these position, please, do not belittle it.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: riverside planner on February 05, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
I agree that on the surface these numbers may seem high, but I also know the hours worked and demands placed on many of these folks. These are high-stress, demanding positions and for the most part the salaries are appropriate.
No they're not. They're a local government 9-5 with full benefits and a pension. Gimme a break. The people at JEA who have the high stress jobs (the guys actually schlepping around to reconnect your power during storms etc.) make peanuts. Meanwhile, their call center supervisor makes $100k+, and they have 10 people all making about 6 figures assigned to advertise a utility monopoly, LMAO! It's a monopoly, why advertise? Where else are the customers going to go? Seriously, "high stress positions" LMFAO! Give me a break.
Quote from: riverside planner on February 05, 2011, 01:20:25 PM
Yes, there are some overpaid people there
Thank you, then we're in agreement with each other.
You're making a straw-man, as you know, I never said "
every single" JEA employee is overpaid.
About customers calling you at home, that's ridiculous, I would've been pissed too. But I'd hope that doesn't preclude you from deciding an issue on the merits, rather than simply going with whichever side you better personally identify with. There are many overpaid people in unnecessary positions at this utility, when you scan through the list. You've got frontline customer service making $40-$60k year, and their supervisors are making 6-figures. And the first thought I had was "wow, they really should be nicer on the phone then!" since with a few exceptions I've found JEA's customer service reps to be condescending and rude.
They have a whole advertising department full of 6-figure or near 6-figure salaries, for a monopoly that needs no advertising. They have 12 people assigned to running a six sigma training course, all making at or near 6-figure salaries. The collections department is nuts, the head makes like $200k and the rest are all $50k+. You don't find these positions at these salaries, plus another 50%-75% of the salary cost over again for full benefits and pensions, anywhere in the private sector. The same job outside of JEA pays half, with no benefits. I don't know of another city department, including yours, that has this kind of staff outlay.
I'm sorry, but making that much a year for managing a small call center, or the taxpayers spending millions to fund an advertising department for a government monopoly with no competition, just seems ludicrous to me. There is nothing like this in the private sector anywhere around this area.
Quote from: Timkin on February 05, 2011, 12:23:55 AM
Im willing to bet there are persons out there equally qualified for these positions who would do them for alot less.
good luck finding
equally qualified folks for much less
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 01:37:29 PM
You're making a straw-man, as you know, I never said "every single" JEA employee is overpaid.
I was reading your post as applying to all government workers, epecially those making six-figures, not just JEA. You are just as guilty of making a straw man in your "LMAO" response to the fact that many of these positions are in fact very high stress. I have not worked for the city in some time, having spent time in the private sector and now at another public agency, but given my experiences and the experiences of many of my colleagues, it frosts me to no end when the assumption is made that there is no way that these salaries are earned or appropriate. And no, at no time have I ever made anywhere near six-figures.
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 04, 2011, 08:54:12 PM
A CEO at a company with absolutely no competetion is not making HUGE decisions and taking huge risks like a CEO at a private corporation. Anyone who thinks the CEO is the driving force in whether an aquisition is made, or has anything at all to do with day to day decisions obviously does not work within the realm of that level of management.
I don't agree with your assessment that the head of JEA is not making HUGE decisions. Granted, they may not always be the right decisions, but they certainly have a HUGE impact on everyone in Jacksonville. I can't think of anyone in Jacksonville who is not affected by those decisions. The salary of the CEO is peanuts compared to overall cost of the utility operation. That person could work for free and we would not see any drop in utility bills. If we want a person capable of running an organization with this much impact on the community, then we would be wise to pay them competitively. Otherwise, why would they come?
With regard to other city employees, my issue is not the amount of compensation, but the number of employees. I can't think of a single engineering company in Jacksonville who hasn't significantly cut their staff size since 2007. Yet, the number of plan reviewers hasn't been reduced accordingly. I'm sure that some were lost due to attrition, but I don't recall hearing of any layoffs.
Doug, you make a good point. JEA's decisions, made of necessity up to decades in advance, on multi-billion dollar power plants alone makes the salaries pale in comparison.
I recall reading that JEA is considering a 10% participation valued at $2 billion in a future nuclear power plant. To make such a decision requires huge expertise and insight projected years into the future regarding the technology and environmental concerns of power sources, relative costs of fuels and the risks to the supply of those fuels, the ever changing winds of politics (local, state, national, and international) and regulations, customer demand based on both needs within businesses and homes as well as derived from population and lifestyle changes, the costs, risks, and impacts of various methods of financing such an investments, the elements needed to construct and operate, etc. Just the interest at 5% on that single $2 billion decision would come to $100 million per year. I don't think a low to middle six figure salary stands too tall against such a responsibility repeated over and over again during an executive's tenure with the utility. And, that's not their only responsibility, but merely just one.
Quote from: stjr on February 05, 2011, 05:05:37 PM
Doug, you make a good point. JEA's decisions, made of necessity up to decades in advance, on multi-billion dollar power plants alone makes the salaries pale in comparison.
I recall reading that JEA is considering a 10% participation valued at $2 billion in a future nuclear power plant. To make such a decision requires huge expertise and insight projected years into the future regarding the technology and environmental concerns of power sources, relative costs of fuels and the risks to the supply of those fuels, the ever changing winds of politics (local, state, national, and international) and regulations, customer demand based on both needs within businesses and homes as well as derived from population and lifestyle changes, the costs, risks, and impacts of various methods of financing such an investments, the elements needed to construct and operate, etc. Just the interest at 5% on that single $2 billion decision would come to $100 million per year. I don't think a low to middle six figure salary stands too tall against such a responsibility repeated over and over again during an executive's tenure with the utility. And, that's not their only responsibility, but merely just one.
No it doesn't. Management aren't nuclear engineers, they just review the engineering reports, cost estimates, and demand projections, and look at their budget, and then if it looks like a good idea they do it, if it doesn't they don't. Except with JEA the contrapositive is probably true, they don't do much unless it's a terrible idea. But I digress.
You people, seriously...what's next, we have to pay the cafeteria worker $200k/yr because it's such a hard decision to put the potatoes or the green beans out first, and that affects the 1,000 people a day that eat there? Have to give the garbagemen 6-figure raises too, because of the stress of deciding which can to pick up first? After all, they probably service 10,000 houses a week, that's a lot of people so it must be a really momentous decision...
The folks at building and zoning affect more people than JEA, at least they can control sprawl patterns.
And Riversideplanner, FYI, when someone says "LMAO" in response to your argument that's not a straw-man, it's just them saying you have a silly argument. Two different things. And STJR, I'm kind of scratching my head, you're like the government-waste watchdog around here, you spend half your time railing against the skyway and demanding it be torn down immediately to save less per year than a random smattering of any given 100 JEA salaries, and then you're cutting a blank pass for that agency employing a dozen people at $100k/yr +/- to market a monopoly? Seriously? This is kind of a credibility gap.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 05:36:39 PM
No it doesn't. Management aren't nuclear engineers, they just review the engineering reports, cost estimates, and demand projections, and look at their budget, and then if it looks like a good idea they do it, if it doesn't they don't. Except with JEA the contrapositive is probably true, they don't do much unless it's a terrible idea. But I digress.
Chris, to my original point, the salaries are "market based" unless you can demonstrate otherwise. Is there another CEO/executive of another similar sized and operationally equivalent utility that makes substantially less than equivalent JEA personnel? If so, you may have a point. If not, then these salaries would appear to be appropriate.
Yes, executives rely on others for inputs but the executives are charged with making the final decisions and being bottom line accountable. Why does Coach Del Rio make millions (several times the CEO of JEA) for managing 53 people playing a game of football to entertain others? He also has all kinds of support including assistant coaches, scouts, trainers, etc. His pay is market driven. It is derived from the fact that if the team loses regularly he is accountable. He get's those bucks to put wins on the field and for suffering the wrath of the fans when he doesn't. Not unlike the CEO of a company working to satisfy both customers and "shareholders". If one isn't going to get "battle pay", why bother going into "battle"? Look at the conversation on this thread. Would you want this kind of public scrutiny about you, your performance, and your pay?QuoteYou people, seriously...what's next, we have to pay the cafeteria worker $200k/yr because it's such a hard decision to put the potatoes or the green beans out first, and that affects the 1,000 people a day that eat there? Have to give the garbagemen 6-figure raises too, because of the stress of deciding which can to pick up first? After all, they probably service 10,000 houses a week, that's a lot of people so it must be a really momentous decision...
Chris, it's about the impact/gravity of the decisions and the supply of people to make them. Are you qualified to run JEA? If so, offer to do it for far less than the current executives and I am sure they will be happy to hire you. If you are not qualified, then find someone who is that will work for far less. Remember, they must be qualified or the pay means nothing.QuoteAnd STJR, I'm kind of scratching my head, you're like the government-waste watchdog around here, you spend half your time railing against the skyway and demanding it be torn down immediately to save less per year than a random smattering of 25 JEA employees, and then you're cutting a blank pass for that agency employing a dozen people at $100k/yr +/- to market a monopoly? Seriously? This is kind of a credibility gap.
This is mixing apples and oranges but there is a common theme to my position you have missed. In both cases, I am looking at costs/benefits driven by market forces. When viewed this way, my positions are entirely consistent.
By the way, I am not giving JEA a blank check. If someone can show either the employees are paid above the "market" for their contributions and/or they are incompetent in their jobs, I join you in saying make changes. But just alleging it doesn't prove it. You are an attorney so I know you appreciate that standard of scrutiny.
And, point of information, the Skyway loses multiple times the pay of whatever 25 JEA employees you are referring to assuming the peak pay for that group is that of the CEO.
Chris, you write very strong words, so I am curious to know - do you have any experience working with the higher level management at JEA? You must because to make those statements certainly implies such. I work with the water & sewer engineering reviewers (much lower on the totem pole) on a regular basis and can say they are among the best I come across. Very responsive and willing to work out common sense solutions. I frankly don't care how much they make - I only care that they do their job.
If the CEO at JEA is not doing his job, I would prefer that he be fired and we find someone who will do the job. Cutting the salary doesn't solve any problems.
The engineers should be getting paid, they are actually the one's doing the work that makes the decisions, and implements the same.
CEO, not so much. Why should they make more? Especially in a govt ran org. I think Ms. Moran said it best on the news, the lady is spot on!
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 05, 2011, 06:08:08 PM
The engineers should be getting paid, they are actually the one's doing the work that makes the decisions, and implements the same.
CEO, not so much. Why should they make more? Especially in a govt ran org. I think Ms. Moran said it best on the news, the lady is spot on!
+1
The other two are missing the point. One is doing so intentionally, since he has no trouble making the very same arguments I'm making now, as long as it's about JTA not JEA. Lol
And Riversideplanner, you, me, or uptown girl could each do a better job running JEA than its current management. Easily. The engineers and people who actually do the work deserve to be paid. But a million dollars in annual salaries to market a monopoly? Really? And WTF is this discussion of CEO pay, I never brought that up to begin with. That's another strawman you're tossing into this discussion. My issue was with the salary levels and apparent redundancy of many mid-level positions.
And stjr, no, it's not market based. Go to any private sector employer and find me a call center employee who makes $60k a year with a pension and full benefits. I'll be waiting...
Follow up story:
http://www.news4jax.com/money/26751450/detail.html
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 06:51:44 PM
And Riversideplanner, you, me, or uptown girl could each do a better job running JEA than its current management. Easily. The engineers and people who actually do the work deserve to be paid. But a million dollars in annual salaries to market a monopoly? Really? And WTF is this discussion of CEO pay, I never brought that up to begin with. That's another strawman you're tossing into this discussion. My issue was with the salary levels and apparent redundancy of many mid-level positions.
Easy to say that you can do something better than someone else when you don't actually have to do it and are not accountable for the results. We would never know until you tried. And then it wouldn't be you who gets to decide on how successful you have been. It would be the bloggers.
But if we're talking about completely redundant positions, then I agree with you. That goes back to my point about why we haven't see a significant reduction in government positions relative to their private counterparts.
Quote from: dougskiles on February 05, 2011, 07:40:10 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 06:51:44 PM
And Riversideplanner, you, me, or uptown girl could each do a better job running JEA than its current management. Easily. The engineers and people who actually do the work deserve to be paid. But a million dollars in annual salaries to market a monopoly? Really? And WTF is this discussion of CEO pay, I never brought that up to begin with. That's another strawman you're tossing into this discussion. My issue was with the salary levels and apparent redundancy of many mid-level positions.
Easy to say that you can do something better than someone else when you don't actually have to do it and are not accountable for the results. We would never know until you tried. And then it wouldn't be you who gets to decide on how successful you have been. It would be the bloggers.
But if we're talking about completely redundant positions, then I agree with you. That goes back to my point about why we haven't see a significant reduction in government positions relative to their private counterparts.
The same could have been said for the CEO of JEA before he was hired for the position, no? You never really know till you know. That doesn't mean much one way or the other.
And FWIW, my point from the get-go was about outrageous mid-level salaries and redundancy, I never brought the CEO into it, that was Riversideplanner's straw man, not my point. So we agree there.
Being a CEO is an insanely difficult job. It can be an easy job. When your CEO, you are given a ton of power. You can either use that power for good or for evil. Yes, anybody can be a CEO. Yes, the job CAN be easy however a GOOD CEO makes the job difficult.
The reason why it's so hard to hire for a CEO is because you literally need to TRUST the guy to be a part of the GOOD side and not the BAD side. A good CEO will spend all day and night reading reports, verifying reports, going from department to department comparing and making sure they are the best of the best. If a department is doing bad, the CEO will go to that department and find a way to fix it! Hire people, fire people, motivate people, reorganize people, etc. A bad CEO will just let both his bad and good engineers and managers do whatever they want and take a vacation to Tahiti.
In JEA's case, if they spend $5 billion on a Nuclear Power plant instead of $1 billion they could have and gotten the same quality for both plants, that's a bad CEO. If they directed the company towards that $1 billion plant, that's a good one. If you think you rates are expensive now, have the CEO make a $4 billion blunder and see what happens to your rates then.
Your hiring for a position that makes sure that $4 billion blunders don't happen.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 06:51:44 PM
And stjr, no, it's not market based. Go to any private sector employer and find me a call center employee who makes $60k a year with a pension and full benefits. I'll be waiting...
Chris, salaries are an "art", not a science, under the best of circumstances. If set properly, compensation (salary, bonus, benefits, etc.) should be management's best judgment, negotiated at arms-length with the subject employee, based on the marketplace, the person's efficiencies (resulting from the skills, education, and experience brought to bear, the work ethic and physical/intellectual qualities of the individual, etc.) and an evaluation of the value of the person's output. Without first hand knowledge of all these factors, it is all but impossible to judge what is appropriate from afar.
And, even with all the information, honest people can disagree or differently negotiate to some extent, which is why compensation levels are often expressed in ranges, rather than a specific numbers. Work environments (e.g. job security, stress of job, physical surroundings, endangerment, etc.) may also play a role. I see wide ranges all the time in the private sector (or, even within the same organization) even though few employers wish to pay more than necessary to get the job done.
Using the call center employee you cite as an example, we don't know their exact job responsibilities or how well they execute them. Do they manage dozens or hundreds of other call center personnel? If they deal with customers, are they residential or complex corporate accounts that may require specialized technical training? Do they receive exceptional praise from customers? Are they more experienced and efficient at resolving issues? Do they handle significantly more service calls/issues than others making less? Do they have secondary responsibilities not evident by their job or department classification? Did they contribute suggestions that resulted in greater efficiencies to the organization? Do they lead/train others? Until we know such things, how can we judge the appropriateness of their pay?
As an attorney, do all attorneys get paid the same thing? Or, do some make 50K or less while others make millions? What's the difference? They all practice law.
If you have an issue with management's judgment or believe there is unacceptable redundancy, then you must have inside information to reach such conclusions. I don't, so I have no comment on that aspect. I am forced, until demonstrated otherwise, to assume that management is competently doing their job as they remain employed without public criticism from the JEA board. If you say you don't question the CEO, you are tacitly saying these are non-issues with you as the CEO is where all accountability leads to. If you feel JEA is out of whack, then you must put that at the feet of the CEO. That IS why he/she get the "big" bucks. As a public entity, I would say you qualify, within the allowances provided by law, as a "stockholder" and you should have the opportunity to take your concerns to JEA's management and/or board. Have you done this? In what forum?
I should add one more thing. A $1 billion blunder is the price of 2.8 courthouses. A $4 billion blunder is the price of 11 courthouses!
Oh, and the city is also managing to keep it's salaries low because the people in the city hires lots and lots of private consultants for lots of money that dwarf any public sector salary. Our city doesn't have people with the knowledge needed to run some sections of it. Because of lack of that internal knowledge, the city pays lots of money to private companies for outside consultation.
The problem with JAX government is good high paying jobs go to golf buddies, not the most experienced or best person for the job. Is it any wonder people are questioning these salaries? With police officers and firemen taking job cuts and pay cuts why the hell does the CEO of a government utility need to be making 347K a year before bonus ?
The duties outlined here in several posts that are trying to justify this position and pay can easily be made by a CFO or even potentially a CTO (which is most likely in the same six figure range). For that matter why should this position make more than the mayor? I mean based on the outlined duties on posts here again, the mayor is making more longterm decisions, with less opportunity to correct mistakes, dealing with more potential for loss of money than the CEO of JEA.
When you measure the NEED of the community who is footing the bill, we need to be looking at positions to eliminate, or cut pay and this is an area to start with-not public safety. The citizens could use an additional five firemen or police officers more than a CEO for monopoly that already has a CFO and CTO checking the numbers and technology, or a slew of marketing resources, does anyone have a choice about who turns their electricity on?
This position, if it needs to exist can be more than about money, you can get really good people that will take the job for less for the experience of it. This is how we get great people in the government segment. Ms. Moran hinted at this when asked about these salaries, and she is correct. No one is saying this should be a 30K /yr job- but is the position needed or is it fairly redundant based on the other roles we are already funding? If it is needed, it certainly is not a 347K/yr position which is more than even the mayor makes.
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 06, 2011, 08:46:12 AM
The problem with JAX government is good high paying jobs go to golf buddies, not the most experienced or best person for the job. Is it any wonder people are questioning these salaries? With police officers and firemen taking job cuts and pay cuts why the hell does the CEO of a government utility need to be making 347K a year before bonus ?
The duties outlined here in several posts that are trying to justify this position and pay can easily be made by a CFO or even potentially a CTO (which is most likely in the same six figure range). For that matter why should this position make more than the mayor? I mean based on the outlined duties on posts here again, the mayor is making more longterm decisions, with less opportunity to correct mistakes, dealing with more potential for loss of money than the CEO of JEA.
When you measure the NEED of the community who is footing the bill, we need to be looking at positions to eliminate, or cut pay and this is an area to start with-not public safety. The citizens could use an additional five firemen or police officers more than a CEO for monopoly that already has a CFO and CTO checking the numbers and technology, or a slew of marketing resources, does anyone have a choice about who turns their electricity on?
This position, if it needs to exist can be more than about money, you can get really good people that will take the job for less for the experience of it. This is how we get great people in the government segment. Ms. Moran hinted at this when asked about these salaries, and she is correct. No one is saying this should be a 30K /yr job- but is the position needed or is it fairly redundant based on the other roles we are already funding? If it is needed, it certainly is not a 347K/yr position which is more than even the mayor makes.
+1
Stjr and Riversideplanner seem to be conflating high salaries with qualified people, which isn't what generally happens around here. They are two separate issues, and the reality is that we generally wind up with high-paid clown circuses in Jacksonville. Stjr, knowing how you feel about JTA, are you really going to argue that point? (My next step is going to be going back and quoting his posts in other threads, lol)
JEA is paying its call center staff between $45k-$166k depending on how long they've been there, and they're generally the rudest bunch of people around. And I still haven't seen anyone justify why JEA has a sizeable advertising department full of 6-figure or near 6-figure salaries, to advertise a government monopoly? Where else would the customers go? Anyone? This is the same agency that started a firestorm late last year for trying to deactivate most of the streetlights in Springfield because it said it couldn't afford them. Seriously, nobody else sees the problem here?
Maybe the solution is to give them all $100k raises? By stjr's logic, that automatically means they're more qualified. lol
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 06, 2011, 08:46:12 AM
Ms. Moran hinted at this when asked about these salaries, and she is correct. No one is saying this should be a 30K /yr job- but is the position needed or is it fairly redundant based on the other roles we are already funding?
You have been referencing Audrey Moran's position on this - but I missed it. What exactly did she say?
Quote from: dougskiles on February 06, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 06, 2011, 08:46:12 AM
Ms. Moran hinted at this when asked about these salaries, and she is correct. No one is saying this should be a 30K /yr job- but is the position needed or is it fairly redundant based on the other roles we are already funding?
You have been referencing Audrey Moran's position on this - but I missed it. What exactly did she say?
It was on first coast news...I think Friday morning, they asked all the mayoral candidates what they thought of the recent disclosure around JEA executive pay. All of them said the did not think these salaries were justified. Ms. Moran was the most clear on outlining that this is a government position, and people enter government position not for the money, but for their contribution. But that in recent years this has been turning, people are not joining the government to contribute, but to take (not word for word but the gist of the statement!) I am looking for the clip on the site....
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=151621
LOL we see this in Springfield all the time. Hell they have five brandnew trucks, one person per truck all show up at a site and only one person is actually working, the rest sit and watch or stand around and BS for hours.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=151625&catid=3
250K in OT only??? WTH????
HELP! Could someone explain to me the background of why JEA, JTA, JPA, JAA were made independent authorities and outside of the Civil Service System? Surely there was a pretty good reason they were taken away from the City, but maybe they are too independent now.
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 06, 2011, 12:57:17 PM
HELP! Could someone explain to me the background of why JEA, JTA, JPA, JAA were made independent authorities and outside of the Civil Service System? Surely there was a pretty good reason they were taken away from the City, but maybe they are too independent now.
The other choice is to let the mayor and mostly the city council make approve and make all the big decisions. If your curious about that, there's a courthouse thread that explains how things operate at that end.
After reading that thread and the comments made at the Jacksonville.com article, I'm glad I have electricity & can fly away when I need to. Things can be worse, unfortunately.
That's just my guess though.
Suprised that no one made mention of the AIMO positions............last number I had was $200 Million for the 227 positions............but hay...........they serve at the will of the Mayor! Nice work if you have the connections to land one of those positions right Johnny?
Sadly the Chamber salaries were not in there because of the private nature, yet they are directly responsible for bringing new jobs to Jacksonville. Wally Lee and his 400,000 salary as well as the guy below him at 375,000 deserve some tread on their backs and performance pay would be a welcome relief with all the jobs, hard jobs, they have brought to our great city.