Metro Jacksonville

Remembering The Hotel Robert Meyer

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/496506078_BiD2f-M.jpg)

Metro Jacksonville takes a look at what was Florida's largest commercial hotel at the time of its opening on March 22, 1959:  The Hotel Robert Meyer.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-dec-remembering-the-hotel-robert-meyer-

Another piece of Jacksonville history that I didn't know but I do now. Thank you for sharing it.

Ed Ball, of DuPont Trust, St. Joe Paper Co., Florida National Bank, and Florida East Coast Railroad fame, lived in a suite on the top floor of the Robert Myer for years.

We watched the implosion with friends.  A first for us too.

great article.

The hotel opened Jacksonville to the lucrative convention trade and gave the city exposure to state and regional groups who held annual meetings.

''It afforded an opportunity to bring a lot of conventions here that had never been able to come here before for lack of lodging,'' Corey said.

But the convention bonanza never materialized. Despite the early fanfare, the hotel soon began a downhill financial slide and closed in bankruptcy in 1977. In 1980, a group of Jacksonville investors that included developer Preston Haskell purchased the hotel and spent $10 million on improvements. They reopened it as the Holiday Inn City Center. But by 1982, the building was closed again due to lack of business.

If they didn't come in the 23 year existence of this hotel, why do we think they would come now?

Why would someone hold a convention in Jacksonville, when one of the largest convention and tourism centers of the US is only 2.5 hours away?

It was a very nice hotel for its time, but it came when greater Jax was on its post WWII decline.

Smaller groups already hold conventions, trade shows and events in Jacksonville.  Instead of worrying about competing with Orlando for mega events that won't come here anyway, my take on the convention issue is to better place and utilize what we already have.  This view is pretty similar to the idea of better exposing existing retail and restaurants already operating downtown with the streets adjacent to them instead of worrying about how to get Publix, Whole Foods or Macy's there.

As for the Robert Meyer, it appears it died with everything else in downtown during the 70s/80s period of decline.

It was truly the last of the great hotel-tourist era in Jacksonville, I think it presided over the change from a one-time tourist mecca to a business and finance center. Don't know how many times I was in that place, it was beautiful inside. At least when it came down something else just as imposing and perhaps more attractive went up in it's place... THE way to do it.

QuoteIf they didn't come in the 23 year existence of this hotel, why do we think they would come now?

Why would someone hold a convention in Jacksonville, when one of the largest convention and tourism centers of the US is only 2.5 hours away?

It was a very nice hotel for its time, but it came when greater Jax was on its post WWII decline.

REALLY? In case you haven't noticed we live in Jacksonville F L O R I D A ! AND Florida is reason number one to come here. When you've gone to Disney 3,295 times you and your company are ready for a change of
scenery. Why did the American Railroads and Maritime interests hold their recent summit in AMELIA ISLAND? After all its just Fernandina right? Did you know we are one of the greatest outdoor recreation cities in the WORLD? With both rivers and beaches its a killer combination. Pristine pine woods and the oldest European settlement in North America would round out the attraction but it doesn't... there's more... Did you know we have more state and national parks, monuments or recreation areas then ANY other city? Reason enough - we just have to have the capacity to handle the crowds and make it inviting.

OCKLAWAHA

Reason enough - we just have to have the capacity to handle the crowds and make it inviting.

There in lies the rub. We aren't inviting.

When I travel, no one knows about Jacksonville as a destination in Florida for anything. I got a call last week to meet someone in Fort Lauderdale next year. They commented, "oh you are just a couple hours away". My response, is "no, I am not". It is just one example of how unrecognizable the First Coast is.

Thinking Jacksonville is like Tampa, Orlando and Miami is like saying Northern California is like Los Angeles and San Diego. They aren't the same even though they are in the same state. 

I agree with Ock on the distinctions of the area, but it has to be appealing and it has to be known outside of the southeast.  Even when I lived in Seattle, I saw commercials for Greater Orlando and Miami by print or by broadcast media. I have even seen ads for Amelia Island Plantation when I was in Salt Lake City.

Do we want to fill rooms by tourism? by business? by sports? by military? a little by all, a lot by one?

If the Robert Meyer were built at the beach, would it still be there today? Why would a tourist stay in a downtown hotel in Jacksonville?

I think the questions about the Robert Meyer still exist today.

Quote from: spuwho on December 24, 2010, 11:52:43 AM
Why would a tourist stay in a downtown hotel in Jacksonville?

They used to: 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jul-lost-jacksonville-downtown-hotels-the-grande-dames

Surely it's possible to make them want to again.

I'm surprised that they didn't consider converting the RMH/HICC into apartments. RMH seemed like it was on par with a building like Tower Place, or the Cathedral Complex Towers. I came to Jax in 86' and never saw that hotel open. That hotel's demolition is featured on the intro of the Discovery Channel show "Detonators".

Quote from: stephendare on December 24, 2010, 01:26:34 PM

Quote from: finehoe on December 24, 2010, 01:16:37 PM

Quote from: spuwho on December 24, 2010, 11:52:43 AM
Why would a tourist stay in a downtown hotel in Jacksonville?

They used to: 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jul-lost-jacksonville-downtown-hotels-the-grande-dames

Surely it's possible to make them want to again.

Surely it is.

We have everything necessary to make Jacksonville the most preeminent city of the South.  That is, except for leadership.

I agree with Stephen, but the "Grande Dames" of Jacksonville were based on a completely different set of economics, demographics and transportation methods.

While it is good to look back at times to not repeat mistakes, Jacksonville needs to stop looking back at what it "was" and start deciding on what it wants to be and deliver on it.

So far I have seen a lot of ideas, a lot of vision, a lot of concepts.  Make a decision and do it better than anyone else.

If Hilton dropped in today and said "we want to build a 15 story luxury hotel in central Jacksonville", what would we say? Would we question it? Would we want to justify it for planning purposes? Would we just say, yes?

Or would we learn from the Robert Meyer?

Quote from: spuwho on December 24, 2010, 11:52:43 AM
Reason enough - we just have to have the capacity to handle the crowds and make it inviting.

There in lies the rub. We aren't inviting.

Thinking Jacksonville is like Tampa, Orlando and Miami is like saying Northern California is like Los Angeles and San Diego. They aren't the same even though they are in the same state.

No actually for a nature loving old hippie, Northern California has about 10,000 more reasons for me to visit then the smog choked concrete jungle of LA or SD. Stephen? How about you? I'm sure there are lots of us out there that would love to stand in the surf at Talbot Island, the millions that visit Lookout Mountain and Gettysburg are the same people that would swarm over the Kingsley Plantation, Olustee, Yellow Bluff and Pumpkin Hill. We have a market and its huge, just for tourists alone. From the looks of things, we don't do bad as it is... compare these with Omaha, Amarillo or Madision.

http://www.travelmuse.com/destinations/US/FL/031/00-duval-county/_attractions

Quote
Visit Jacksonville reports $1.5 billion tourism impact

05/11/2010

Visit Jacksonville reported Monday that in the midst of a recession and high unemployment, Duval County attracted 2.6 million overnight visitors in 2009, generating an economic impact of $1.5 billion.

The second annual Jacksonville Value of Tourism study focused on the economic impact and profile of the typical overnight Jacksonville visitor. The organization used Tampa-based Research Data Services Inc. for the year-long survey.

Overnight visitors, defined as those staying in commercial lodging, such as hotels, and those staying with friends and relatives, were responsible for $893.5 million in direct spending within the destination last year.

The combination of direct and indirect spending contributed to $1.5 billion in visitor spending at restaurants, attractions and activities, rental cars, park fees and related spending.

This spending supported 42,900 jobs in the county, or nearly 11 percent of the local workforce, and almost $67 million in total sales and local option tax revenues last year, the survey found.

Visit Jacksonville said that because of contributions to local taxes, visitors saved each Duval County household an estimated $173 in taxes for 2009.

“The downturn in the economy has significantly affected all industries and Jacksonville’s tourism industry has not been immune. While visits and visitor spending were down slightly from 2008 by approximately 6 percent, the reality is that many destinations have fared worse and we anticipated a larger decrease based on national trends,” said Mya Carter, Visit Jacksonville interim president and CEO.

She said Jacksonville’s tourism industry is poised for rebound and growth in 2010.

Hotels have already seen signs of regaining strength in 2010, with occupancy above 60 percent in both February and March, the first time since October 2008.

Visit Jacksonville provided a profile for a typical overnight visitor to Jacksonville in 2009:

• Average visitor age was 49 years old.

• The median annual household income was nearly $106,200.

• Eighty-three percent of travelers were in town for vacation or events or visiting friends or relatives, while 23 percent of visitors were in town for business purposes. The numbers exceed 100 percent because some visitors were here for both.

• The majority of visitors to the destination (36 percent) came from within the Southeast U.S. (other than Florida), followed by instate visitors (26 percent).

• The top five market cities with the largest number of visitors to the area were, in order, Atlanta, Orlando, Tampa/St. Petersburg, New York and Miami/Fort Lauderdale.

• Jacksonville visitors had a 92 percent satisfaction rate with the destination.

• Perceived as “excellent” were friendliness of residents; level of service; value for the dollar.

Quote
I agree with Ock on the distinctions of the area, but it has to be appealing and it has to be known outside of the southeast.  Even when I lived in Seattle, I saw commercials for Greater Orlando and Miami by print or by broadcast media. I have even seen ads for Amelia Island Plantation when I was in Salt Lake City.

I think you might agree but probably didn't know the extent of our local tourism dollars, but hey, we're a full service digital magazine.

Quote
Do we want to fill rooms by tourism? by business? by sports? by military? a little by all, a lot by one?

Really no matter how you cut it, we are a VERY BIG CITY, well within America's TOP 50 cities and larger in population then the entire states of:

Quote

41. Maine --- 1,328,361

42. New Hampshire --- 1,316,470

43. Rhode Island --- 1,052,567

44. Montana --- 989,415

45. Delaware --- 897,934

46. South Dakota --- 814,180

47. Alaska --- 710,231

48. North Dakota --- 672,591

49. Vermont --- 625,741

50. District of Columbia --- 601,723

51. Wyoming --- 563,626

QuoteIf the Robert Meyer were built at the beach, would it still be there today? Why would a tourist stay in a downtown hotel in Jacksonville?

The "Sea Turtle Inn" aka ONE OCEAN RESORT seems to be doing well, if large old hotels were doomed it would have gone down long ago. Downtown? Downtown is actually fun to visit and comes across as a pretty cosmopolitan place thanks to our major hotels and the Landing. The folks from Phoenix can't get over a river taxi, hell they can't get over a river... well, they can't even get over WATER! When I visited JAX a few years back I'd stay in the Omni, and have to tell you it was either excellent or Juliette's Bistro and Lounge was making really stiff drinks. Even the Skyway dazzles visitors... since about 8 in 10 American's are still waiting for "the train of the future when the country will be crossed by monorail," we're way ahead of them. (BTW IT WON'T)

QuoteI think the questions about the Robert Meyer still exist today.

Questions about business viability will always be with us, change is eternal. Just ask Des Moines, what they think of Jacksonville in January. Des Moines, the place that sells itself as the cheap convention capital and still has a center 2.5 x ours.


OCKLAWAHA

I stayed at the HICC one night in high school for a regional school conference. As a long time Jacksonville resident that stay was the first time I'd seen a great view of downtown from downtown, and I still remember how interesting it was to see the city from that perspective. I can see why Ed Ball would have taken the top floor.

Unfortunately, other than the view (and I don't know how interesting a non-local would have found it), from an occupant's perspective the HICC seemed pretty milquetoast by that time.The room quality by then didn't seem to live up to the grace the structure itself had.  It seemed a shame, but not surprising at the time, that it couldn't keep the occupancy numbers needed to stay in business. I didn't know anything about its pre-HICC history until today, thanks for the rest of the story.

I celebrated a New Year's Eve there when it was the Holiday Inn.  Restaurant was white table cloth, not like a typical Holiday Inn.  I thought Holiday Inn was the wrong flag for that hotel and was surprised the investors chose it.  They should have gone with Marriott, Hilton, Sheraton, or other brand whose image catered to professional and business executive travelers more, not interstate traveling families.

I also remember attending events in the Robert Meyer ballroom.  It was the biggest hotel function space in town holding, as I recall, up to 500 for dinner.  Seems to me the RM inherited the legacy of the George Washington for hosting the main events of the day.

I think it died mostly due to the death of downtown than anything to do with the hotel.  If we want downtown hotels to thrive, we need a vibrant downtown first.  The hotels will be happy to follow.  Not the other way around.  Unfortunately, I don't see the momentum for this to happen presently.  As stated many times, lack of vision, a consistently executed plan, and leadership.

Quote from: stephendare on December 24, 2010, 03:06:02 PM
To be honest, Spuwho, I think thats exactly what Haydon Burns tried to do when he eradicated the maritime riverfront of the downtown, and decided instead to pursue corporate insurance and towers as a financial base of the city.

I hafta disagree Stephen. IMO the days of the maritime riverfront piers is of a bygone era; Look at with they are shipping out (on that pic) for gawdsakes, barrels of rum. LOL. IMO Haydons burns made the necessary changes; IMO the financial area of DT Jax is hella more important than a coupla rickety piers that aren't particularly pleasing to the eye. We have plenty of marinas/shipping areas all over the city like the Southbank marina, and Jaxport.

^^^What would you envision the old riverfront piers to be (here in 2010) if it wasn't replaced? Successful places in the US like B-More's Harbor, SF's Fisherman's Wharf, and that Seattle fish market seem far and few between. That's another fetish that MJ seems to have, a urban Fisherman's Wharf here in Jax. LOL

Okay the financial/business section of the city's DT has to be somewhere, where would you place it at? Expecting them old ports to still be here with thriving activity is like seeing still actively used typewriters, library card catalogs, and washing boards. Totally different era.

Oops, I forgot I'm on MJ and everything has to be DT if not it spells failure; Even though we have a cruise terminal out Heckscher, and are getting one out Mayport screw that! because it's all about downtown. Because everybody knows that some people getting off and on a ship (who just wanna go home anyway) is more important than the city's financial district! Yeah crazy egg-noggy me!! Try to be a lil' less condescending.

Okay Stephen, obviously the Landing would not be built if you had your way. Basically what you're saying funnel people though DT in various modes of transit/boats. What about retail/shopping etc? IMO funneling a whole buncha people into DT doesn't automatically equals having a successful DT. It's easy to play "Monday morning QB" when you're dealing with so many eras of change, esp. the dreadfully 70's era of DT's all across America. How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

Quote from: I-10east on December 24, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
Okay Stephen, obviously the Landing would not be built if you had your way. Basically what you're saying funnel people though DT in various modes of transit/boats. What about retail/shopping etc? IMO funneling a whole buncha people into DT doesn't automatically equals having a successful DT. It's easy to play "Monday morning QB" when you're dealing with so many eras of change, esp. the dreadfully 70's era of DT's all across America. How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

I think what Stephen is emphasizing here is that Jacksonville was economically vibrant when several transportation forms converged on the DT district.  However due to the disruption of transportation patterns set out over the past 80-100 years (marine/rail) to a new one (air/car) after WWII, the downtown lost much of the people who frequented, even if they were just "passing through". This in turn caused a huge loss of hotel volume in the central business district. The domino effect took several years to occur, but it is plain to see.

By placing a re-emphasis on driving primary transportation tools through the DT, you can establish new patterns of business that can build up around them. If I understand Stephen correctly, since some of the infrastructure that supported this has been removed, it is difficult to get those patterns re-established.

Stephen, I think that changing maritime technology had more to do with the removal of shipping from downtown than anything else.  Containerization of freight killed the demand for warehouses and the larger ships and equipment required for containers didn't fit downtown.  So freight activities moved first to Tallyrand and then to Blount Island.

My (future) father-in-law had his food brokerage business in the Weisenfeld Warehouse complex which was located about where the CSX building is now.  It was a fascinating world of small ships and barges being loaded and unloaded by stevedores with hand carts moving stuff between the water, the warehouse and boxcars.  I count myself lucky to have seen that world before it vanished.

By the time the wharves and warehouses were torn down, they were deserted and crumbling.  Making them into parking lots was stupid though and replacing them with marinas and passenger terminals would have been far better than turning our downtown back on the river activities.

Quote from: I-10east on December 24, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

Tampa, New Orleans, Mobile, Galveston, San Diego, Savannah, Charleston, Wilmington, Norfolk are a couple of more off the top of my head that have DT crusie terminals.  I would be suprised if most waterfront cities with cruise ports don't have them in or near DT.

As for what Stephen is saying, I do agree that we should look at better utilizing our natural and physical assets in DT.  What we've done with downtown the last few decades is like giving a 7 footer a limbo dance pole instead of a basketball.

Bringing passenger rail back to Jacksonville at the Jacksonville Terminal with service to Miami down FEC tracks and service restored to New Orleans and further West would do more to revive downtown than just about any other development.

We still have the opportunity at the Shipyards site to establish a protected municipal marina that can attract Intracoastal Waterway travelers to downtown.  Both Elizabeth City and Oriental N.C. and St. Mary's, GA, St. Augustine get significant economic impact from passing boaters and actively try to attract them.  Our current downtown marina in front of the River City Brewing Company is unprotected from the swift currents and is very unfriendly to transient boaters.

Marine publications praise the St. Johns River as a beautiful place to cruise, but lament the lack of facilities especially on the upper St. Johns.  Marina Mile on the Ortega River is just about the only place for a passing boater to go and it is quite far off the River.

Dogwalker, would the piers of the Shipyards and mouth of Hogans Creek offer refuge if properly developed?

Yes.  Solid finger piers extending into the river will block the current as long as they are not too far apart.  There are lots of places that have developed protected marinas in high current areas.  It's well established engineering.

Fernandina did it wrong and ended up with a silting problem in their municipal marina.

Marinas are a big part of the attraction of the waterfronts of a number of big cities.  St. Petersburg, Norfolk, Washington D.C., Baltimore, Newport, Annapolis, Boston, New York, just off the top of my head.  San Francisco, Seattle. Galveston.......

I look at a waterfront marina as an "attraction" as much as I look at a heavy industrial port like Blount Island as one; Hell, I change my mind I'd be WAY more interested in taking a tour in a heavy industrial place like Jaxport because of the large imposing bridge cranes, and other impressive machinery. A buncha bobbing masts, fish smell, and sea gulls doesn't do it for me.

Quote from: stephendare on December 25, 2010, 09:06:07 AM

Quote from: spuwho on December 25, 2010, 12:36:19 AM

Quote from: I-10east on December 24, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
Okay Stephen, obviously the Landing would not be built if you had your way. Basically what you're saying funnel people though DT in various modes of transit/boats. What about retail/shopping etc? IMO funneling a whole buncha people into DT doesn't automatically equals having a successful DT. It's easy to play "Monday morning QB" when you're dealing with so many eras of change, esp. the dreadfully 70's era of DT's all across America. How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

I think what Stephen is emphasizing here is that Jacksonville was economically vibrant when several transportation forms converged on the DT district.  However due to the disruption of transportation patterns set out over the past 80-100 years (marine/rail) to a new one (air/car) after WWII, the downtown lost much of the people who frequented, even if they were just "passing through". This in turn caused a huge loss of hotel volume in the central business district. The domino effect took several years to occur, but it is plain to see.

By placing a re-emphasis on driving primary transportation tools through the DT, you can establish new patterns of business that can build up around them. If I understand Stephen correctly, since some of the infrastructure that supported this has been removed, it is difficult to get those patterns re-established.

my god, Im experiencing something akin to actual love right now.  Yes. Spuwho.  exactly.

It's Christmas after all.

I'm sorry guys but if you look at cities that didn't actively demolish their waterfront industry (a surprising number of cities made this mistake, it wasn't just JAX) the maritime industries evolved within their constraints to serve the modern economy. New York, Boston, SF, SEA, really all of the traditional old cities that didnt go demolition crazy have active waterfronts still today that contribute to their economies. Jacksonville really screwed the pooch on this one.

Are any of those other downtowns with active ports as far from the ocean as is downtown Jacksonville?  And have good port locations closer to the ocean than their downtowns, like Jacksonville?  And have bridges restricting access (one as low as 141' - Hart)?

Houston, Portland... both WAY UP the river, and Portland is actually on a different river.

OCKLAWAHA

I also feel like Haydon Burns ERA was the great demise of our DT and it has not been the same since. Instead of preserving the old main library, we should implode it and making into a surface lot in his memory. LOL Its sad, but as someone else stated, we gotta move forward.

Quote from: I-10east on December 24, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
Okay Stephen, obviously the Landing would not be built if you had your way. Basically what you're saying funnel people though DT in various modes of transit/boats. What about retail/shopping etc? IMO funneling a whole buncha people into DT doesn't automatically equals having a successful DT. It's easy to play "Monday morning QB" when you're dealing with so many eras of change, esp. the dreadfully 70's era of DT's all across America. How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 25, 2010, 06:49:12 PM
Are any of those other downtowns with active ports as far from the ocean as is downtown Jacksonville?  And have good port locations closer to the ocean than their downtowns, like Jacksonville?  And have bridges restricting access (one as low as 141' - Hart)?

The Hart bridge opened in 1967, after COJ had intentionally destroyed most of our maritime industry downtown. If that industry hadn't already been mostly destroyed by Haydon Burns in the 1950s, our bridges (which came after) would have either included opening spans to accommodate ship traffic, or they would simply have been built with more vertical clearance.

If we want to talk of killing maritime options for downtown or "near-downtown" (such as Talleyrand/Stadium district), especially cruise ships, consider the short sightedness special interests passed through in building the too low Dames Point bridge and maybe the Hart Bridge.  When we replace the Matthews, it needs to be built to modern height standards.  Some day, when the Hart and Dames Point outlive their usefulness, the errors of our ways should be corrected with higher replacements.  It may take another 50 years to fix this, but that's exactly why we need more forethought and vision in making long term decisions for Jax, not knee jerk, low cost, quick fixes that are politically or special interest motivated.

As to where to go from here, if more transit is a partial cure for what ails downtown, lets get Amtrak back downtown, a first class mass transit connection from downtown to the Airport, mass transit connections using streetcars to surrounding urban neighborhoods, commuter rail to the suburbs, and a bus system that actually works.  Add some St. Johns River cruise boats to Sanford and more intracoastal cruises up and down the east coast of the U.S. Top it off with great pedestrian and bicycle connectivity and we should be on our way.  At some point, ferry's to Orange Park, Arlington, Mayport, Mandarin, Green Cove Springs, and Palatka could join the river taxis.

By the way, much of New York's docks have been removed and the frontage redeveloped with wide expanses of greenways, bike, jogging, and walking paths, and playgrounds and parks with a few historic sites (e.g. the Battery), museums, restaurants, kiosks, and marinas mixed in.  I still say the Shipyards and JEA sites should be ground zero for starting this up in Jax.  The Riverwalk is nice, but it is a narrow thread line compared to the NY waterfront being transformed from its past.

Battery Park Esplanade:
(http://cdn.wn.com/pd/37/ca/469ffaa933de05d438fd56845f95_grande.jpg)

Manhattan Waterfront Greenway Map at:  http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_things_to_do/facilities/af_bike_maps.html
(http://mappery.com/maps/Manhattan-Waterfront-Greenway-Bike-Map.mediumthumb.pdf.png)

Quotehttp://www.nycgovparks.org/facilities/bikeways

Why Greenways?

(http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_things_to_do/facilities/images/bicycling_2.jpg)

A greenway is a linear open space, such as a path or trail, which links parks and communities around the City, providing public access to green spaces and the waterfront. Greenways expand recreational opportunities for walking, jogging, biking, and in-line skating.

In 1993, the City of New York had a vision to create 350 miles of landscaped bicycle and pedestrian paths that would crisscross the City's five boroughs and enrich the lives of all New Yorkers. Currently Parks has built over 100 miles of the proposed greenway system. Greenways answer the growing public demand for safe and pleasant ways to travel about the City. These trails allow one to get to work or school, shop or do errands, or to reach the waterfront, parks, beaches, and museums.

Benefits of Greenways

Cyclists, joggers, strollers, skaters, people in wheelchairs or who are mobility-impaired, dog walkers, bird watchers, kids and adults, families and friends, recreational users and commutersâ€"in short, everyone and anyoneâ€"gain from the presence and production of greenways. As levels of obesity and diabetes rise among our population, the need to stay fit and healthy has never been more urgent. In order to ensure that no one has to travel too far to use an athletic facility, we are constantly looking to add new properties where parkland previously did not exist and when that is not possible, to bring people to existing facilities.

For Health
Using greenways helps keep you healthy. By bicycle riding, walking, jogging, or skating on the greenways, you can get exercise in an enjoyable way and spend time outdoors!

For Transportation
Riding a bicycle is a form of exercise, recreation, and transportation. Try bicycle riding for your daily commute and see how favorably it compares to driving a car, riding the bus, or taking the subway. Bicycles often get you there in less time, and the scenery is better! It's good for you AND the environment.

For the Environment
The fewer cars we drive and the fewer car trips we make, the cleaner our air becomes. Bicycles and skates don't pollute! By choosing to bike, you will reduce automobile congestion and pollution, thus improving the quality of life in our city. The City's environmental health is also improved because trees are planted along the City's greenways.

For Safety
Designated bicycle paths are excellent places to learn how to ride! Riding on designated bicycle paths is safer than riding on unsigned streets and roads.

For Fun
Greenways are fun! Skate and enjoy time with friends or family, walk to the playground, bike with your children… Trees and plants along greenways make using these paths a relaxing escape from the asphalt jungle. Rediscover New York City's parks, rivers, harbors, and bays! You will see natural landscapes and amazing city views missed by most drivers.

Quote
(http://www.renewnyc.com/Newsletters/SummerFall2005/ImagesArticle/waterfront.jpg)

The East River Waterfront Esplanade is receiving $150 million from the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation to create a spectacular waterfront esplanade, to complete the Manhattan greenway, and to reconnect the communities of Lower Manhattan to the East River Waterfront.

Historically, Lower Manhattan’s waterfront area has been the leading shipping capital in the nation. Yet, the waterfront has altered dramatically in Manhattan from industrial use to recreational use. Governor George E. Pataki explained that reclaiming the waterfront has been a key part of the rebuilding process.

The river’s edge from Battery Park to East River Park will morph from inaccessible shores to the lungs of the city. “Chain-link fences and concrete barriers will be replaced by cultural facilities, unique recreational spaces, and community amenities,” said LMDC President Stefan Pryor. Like Central Park, it will be a retreat where people who live, work, and visit Lower Manhattan can escape the glare and glitter of the city to enjoy physical recreation and a sense of community.

(http://www.renewnyc.com/Newsletters/SummerFall2005/ImagesArticle/callout_3.jpg)

As multifaceted as the communities that it serves, the design jointly submitted by Richard Rogers Partnership and SHoP Architects and funded by the LMDC will reflect the local character of each area. The plantings for Pike Street will reflect the local character of each district the street passes through.

Turning garbage to gold, the current sanitation pier will be transformed into a publicly accessible open space on the water with seating for pedestrians. New claddings and enhanced lighting are just a few of the changes which will be found beneath the FDR and in Lower Manhattan’s vicinity.

http://www.renewnyc.com/Newsletters/SummerFall2005/

Bringing back maritime opportunities to not only Downtown Jacksonville but throughout the St. Johns River Waterways has never been more pivotal than right now. For tourism and Heads in Beds.(Robert Meyer)

Our city council just passed 2010-675 which will bring the USS Executive Ship to our Downtown with a last minute Finance amendment that could be a future taxpayer bailout provision contained within and this legislation was kept out of the Jacksonville Waterways Commission. Why?

Another scary and statewide jobs killer piece of legislation is 2010-856 which is a transient vendor ban with a 1 mile radious of another business operating a similar business or service from a permanent structure. This was shared with the St. Johns River Alliance at there Dec. 2010 Board meeting where the topic on the agenda was the seeking of a State designation for a Blueway Paddling trail throughout the 310 miles of our St. Johns River our American Heritage River except in Duval County.

Two years ago. Two years ago. I attended a meeting of FIND Florida Inland Navigation District. These Commissioners are appointed by the Governor and I simply asked if private money was raised for a Pocket Pier (Waterfront Public Access Street End) would the Commissioners of FIND match the other half and the answer was yes. You need a sponsor. A city councilmember. That was two years ago. Two years ago. The commissioners outside of Duval county were sharing numerous examples. Our Duval county representative is Mike Messiano. You can't blame Mike.

Out of 19 Jacksonville city council members to this day I still don't have one sponsor. That is why this city council and mayoral race is so important. There is no way in heck that I'd support anyone who isn't for saving and keeping separate the Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier. If you think for one second that we will be getting more Public Access your wrong. We'll be getting less.

Also as to 2010-856 the current exemption to the legislation is Downtown. Will the exemption be expanded to include the Waterways of the St. Johns River? If not then we need to immediately reconsider that American Heritage River Designation.

Keep score.

Noone, based solely on whether or not you think they will actively support the Promised Downtown Public Pier, how would you rank candidates running for mayor and the various council seats?

From my own quote. It was just a tongue-in-cheek remark.

"You can't go back in time and extort the old deceased mayor, but you can always go forward and make the best of a situation".

Nope Stephen, I was "successful" in the word I said, extort as in coercion, like to force someone involuntary against their will. Don't take tongue-in-cheek remarks so serious. Maybe you are too smart for your own good.

Quote from: stephendare on December 26, 2010, 09:16:32 AM
Just for the sake of curiousity, how do you imagine it is possible to coerce, extort, blackmail or otherwise force the hand of a dead man?

I don't think that it's possible. I just figured if time travel was possible that's what yall would wanna do (extort Burns) to get the desired DT waterfront light industrial docks, marina, and cruise terminal; Being that yall are villifying him and all.

Maybe "vilify" was too strong, how bout witch hunt JK. It's all good if yall disagree with his decisions. I have a Jags game to go to, chat witcha later. :)

Quote from: I-10east on December 26, 2010, 09:39:05 AM
Maybe "vilify" was too strong, how bout witch hunt JK. It's all good if yall disagree with his decisions. I have a Jags game to go to, chat witcha later. :)

It's not a witch hunt.

Merely that wise people recognize that those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

The Haydon Burns / Robert Moses / Jack Diamond influences have succeeded in almost completely killing Jacksonville. And I don't mean Duval County, I mean the actual urban city. If your argument held any water, most of our downtown wouldn't be vacant lots and empty buildings, would it? Seems like history has already spoken on your interpretation doesn't it? Downtown JAX is like Raccoon City. These policies represent a total and complete failure. Parking lots and special events aren't how the money works in a sustainable local economy. Get rid of everything "ugly" and you just wind up with pretty empty buildings, which is what we have now. The "ugly" stuff is what actually employs people.

I agree that the "ugly stuff" employs people (heavy industrial ports like Port of South Louisiana, Port of Houston, Port Newark-Elizabeth Marine Terminal, Jaxport etc.) not some rinky-dink obsolete urban port that was designed to ship turpentine in the 1950's.

What about all of that land (like I mentioned earlier) on the Southbank (near Duval County Schools) concerning a cruise terminal. Nevermind yall are gonna ignore me like you guys always do, besides I know the Southbank isn't "DT" enough.

The most significant event by far that "killed Jax"(if you wanna call it that) was the combo of a plague here in Jax, and yalls beloved trains (tracks) heading South for the greener pastures of Central Florida, and Miami. It's not even close.

Quote from: stephendare on December 26, 2010, 09:36:09 PM
The city just moved the passenger rail station north (not south) in the wasteland surrounding the amtrak station that doesnt connect with anything, not even a decent overnight hotel.

I can't argue with you there. It's pretty seedy there on that part of US-1.

I really don't understand why Amtrak couldn't make another small station(NOW) in Orange Park and have a JTA park and ride at the same location.  I know Orange park & the JTA is planning something for those on FEC & CSX trackage for commuter rail, to materialize sometime this century, but what can be done now so people won't have to go all the way to US-1 to catch a train. Those motels would come in handy in OP for overnight NAS travelers & for those who wish to catch a train at 7:25 in the morning.

The JTA is working on a park-and-ride lot on County Road 220 next to the CSX tracks.  A possible station location?  But it isn't near the I-295 motels.

From this discussion it's clear that JAcksonville has had poor leadership for quite some time.  Time to get serious about our new Mayoral election and pick a winner.

I agree with Stephen that we made a huge error when we drove the maritime industry from downtown.  In the 70's we had several cruise ships sail from the CSX building downtown.  Unfortunately, downtown is a bit too far from the sea and the bridges too low to allow any of the newer, larger cruse ships to pass under.

On the good news side, the city is about to complete work on a new public dock at the Riverside Arts Market.

REPEAT WARNING!  REPEAT WARNING!  REPEAT WARNING!

No one "drove" the maritime industry out of downtown.  There was no lack of leadership that made it happen.  There was no plot for gentrification of our waterfront.  The old City Hall and County courthouse and old jail were built where they are in order to clean up a blighted, abandoned area.

The rapid containerization of freight in the '50's meant that the warehouses along the waterfront were no longer needed.  There was also no room for the large docks and cranes that are required for moving containers.  Logically, the post was moved to Tallyrand and later expanded to Blount Island.

Second, the cost of American labor first moved shipbuilding to other countries and then moved ship repair away as well.

I concur.
The days of Jacksonville being a riverport are over.  Jax is a seaport.

Large shoreline wharehousing facilities for dry goods is not an economically feasible model any longer.  Even Landmar's original plans with the Shipyards property was to construct cold storage facilities, which has a little bit different economic structure than dry goods or containerized units.  There are plenty of cold storage facilities on the Westside of town presently in fact.

That being said, bringing the pleasure boat maritime industry back downtown is critical.  The riverfront needs to be activated in a much more utiliatarian way than it is being used now.  Powerboats and hand launched boat facilities at RAM and the Hogans Creek Greenbelt need to return to the urban waterfront.

A good book for you to read on the subject is Jacksonville: Riverport Seaport.  Great history about the maritime industry in Jax since the Hugenots roamed the shores of what is now Duval County.

A really good example of what a big marina can do for a downtown area is Charleston Harbor.  It's behind a barrier wall so is not exposed to the currents of the river.  There is a shuttle bus that runs from there into downtown where the shops and restaurants are.  The marina is jammed with transient boaters who bring in millions of dollars to the city every year.

Norfolk has the same arrangement and more marinas.

The Shipyards site just cries out for a big marina to draw some of the Waterways boaters up the river to town and on.  Marina Mile in Ortega is just too far away from downtown to have the same impact.