Remembering The Hotel Robert Meyer

[I-10east]

^^^What would you envision the old riverfront piers to be (here in 2010) if it wasn't replaced? Successful places in the US like B-More's Harbor, SF's Fisherman's Wharf, and that Seattle fish market seem far and few between. That's another fetish that MJ seems to have, a urban Fisherman's Wharf here in Jax. LOL

[I-10east]

Okay the financial/business section of the city's DT has to be somewhere, where would you place it at? Expecting them old ports to still be here with thriving activity is like seeing still actively used typewriters, library card catalogs, and washing boards. Totally different era.

[I-10east]

Oops, I forgot I'm on MJ and everything has to be DT if not it spells failure; Even though we have a cruise terminal out Heckscher, and are getting one out Mayport screw that! because it's all about downtown. Because everybody knows that some people getting off and on a ship (who just wanna go home anyway) is more important than the city's financial district! Yeah crazy egg-noggy me!! Try to be a lil' less condescending.

[I-10east]

Okay Stephen, obviously the Landing would not be built if you had your way. Basically what you're saying funnel people though DT in various modes of transit/boats. What about retail/shopping etc? IMO funneling a whole buncha people into DT doesn't automatically equals having a successful DT. It's easy to play "Monday morning QB" when you're dealing with so many eras of change, esp. the dreadfully 70's era of DT's all across America. How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

[spuwho]

Okay Stephen, obviously the Landing would not be built if you had your way. Basically what you're saying funnel people though DT in various modes of transit/boats. What about retail/shopping etc? IMO funneling a whole buncha people into DT doesn't automatically equals having a successful DT. It's easy to play "Monday morning QB" when you're dealing with so many eras of change, esp. the dreadfully 70's era of DT's all across America. How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

I think what Stephen is emphasizing here is that Jacksonville was economically vibrant when several transportation forms converged on the DT district.  However due to the disruption of transportation patterns set out over the past 80-100 years (marine/rail) to a new one (air/car) after WWII, the downtown lost much of the people who frequented, even if they were just "passing through". This in turn caused a huge loss of hotel volume in the central business district. The domino effect took several years to occur, but it is plain to see.

By placing a re-emphasis on driving primary transportation tools through the DT, you can establish new patterns of business that can build up around them. If I understand Stephen correctly, since some of the infrastructure that supported this has been removed, it is difficult to get those patterns re-established.

[Dog Walker]

Stephen, I think that changing maritime technology had more to do with the removal of shipping from downtown than anything else.  Containerization of freight killed the demand for warehouses and the larger ships and equipment required for containers didn't fit downtown.  So freight activities moved first to Tallyrand and then to Blount Island.

My (future) father-in-law had his food brokerage business in the Weisenfeld Warehouse complex which was located about where the CSX building is now.  It was a fascinating world of small ships and barges being loaded and unloaded by stevedores with hand carts moving stuff between the water, the warehouse and boxcars.  I count myself lucky to have seen that world before it vanished.

By the time the wharves and warehouses were torn down, they were deserted and crumbling.  Making them into parking lots was stupid though and replacing them with marinas and passenger terminals would have been far better than turning our downtown back on the river activities.

[thelakelander]

How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

Tampa, New Orleans, Mobile, Galveston, San Diego, Savannah, Charleston, Wilmington, Norfolk are a couple of more off the top of my head that have DT crusie terminals.  I would be suprised if most waterfront cities with cruise ports don't have them in or near DT.

As for what Stephen is saying, I do agree that we should look at better utilizing our natural and physical assets in DT.  What we've done with downtown the last few decades is like giving a 7 footer a limbo dance pole instead of a basketball.

[Dog Walker]

Bringing passenger rail back to Jacksonville at the Jacksonville Terminal with service to Miami down FEC tracks and service restored to New Orleans and further West would do more to revive downtown than just about any other development.

We still have the opportunity at the Shipyards site to establish a protected municipal marina that can attract Intracoastal Waterway travelers to downtown.  Both Elizabeth City and Oriental N.C. and St. Mary's, GA, St. Augustine get significant economic impact from passing boaters and actively try to attract them.  Our current downtown marina in front of the River City Brewing Company is unprotected from the swift currents and is very unfriendly to transient boaters.

Marine publications praise the St. Johns River as a beautiful place to cruise, but lament the lack of facilities especially on the upper St. Johns.  Marina Mile on the Ortega River is just about the only place for a passing boater to go and it is quite far off the River.

[thelakelander]

Dogwalker, would the piers of the Shipyards and mouth of Hogans Creek offer refuge if properly developed?

[Dog Walker]

Yes.  Solid finger piers extending into the river will block the current as long as they are not too far apart.  There are lots of places that have developed protected marinas in high current areas.  It's well established engineering.

Fernandina did it wrong and ended up with a silting problem in their municipal marina.

Marinas are a big part of the attraction of the waterfronts of a number of big cities.  St. Petersburg, Norfolk, Washington D.C., Baltimore, Newport, Annapolis, Boston, New York, just off the top of my head.  San Francisco, Seattle. Galveston.......

[I-10east]

I look at a waterfront marina as an "attraction" as much as I look at a heavy industrial port like Blount Island as one; Hell, I change my mind I'd be WAY more interested in taking a tour in a heavy industrial place like Jaxport because of the large imposing bridge cranes, and other impressive machinery. A buncha bobbing masts, fish smell, and sea gulls doesn't do it for me.

[spuwho]

Okay Stephen, obviously the Landing would not be built if you had your way. Basically what you're saying funnel people though DT in various modes of transit/boats. What about retail/shopping etc? IMO funneling a whole buncha people into DT doesn't automatically equals having a successful DT. It's easy to play "Monday morning QB" when you're dealing with so many eras of change, esp. the dreadfully 70's era of DT's all across America. How many US cities have DT cruise terminals? I can't think of none, maybe Miami?

I think what Stephen is emphasizing here is that Jacksonville was economically vibrant when several transportation forms converged on the DT district.  However due to the disruption of transportation patterns set out over the past 80-100 years (marine/rail) to a new one (air/car) after WWII, the downtown lost much of the people who frequented, even if they were just "passing through". This in turn caused a huge loss of hotel volume in the central business district. The domino effect took several years to occur, but it is plain to see.

By placing a re-emphasis on driving primary transportation tools through the DT, you can establish new patterns of business that can build up around them. If I understand Stephen correctly, since some of the infrastructure that supported this has been removed, it is difficult to get those patterns re-established.

my god, Im experiencing something akin to actual love right now.  Yes. Spuwho.  exactly.

It's Christmas after all.

[ChriswUfGator]

I'm sorry guys but if you look at cities that didn't actively demolish their waterfront industry (a surprising number of cities made this mistake, it wasn't just JAX) the maritime industries evolved within their constraints to serve the modern economy. New York, Boston, SF, SEA, really all of the traditional old cities that didnt go demolition crazy have active waterfronts still today that contribute to their economies. Jacksonville really screwed the pooch on this one.

[Charles Hunter]

Are any of those other downtowns with active ports as far from the ocean as is downtown Jacksonville?  And have good port locations closer to the ocean than their downtowns, like Jacksonville?  And have bridges restricting access (one as low as 141' - Hart)?

[Ocklawaha]

Houston, Portland... both WAY UP the river, and Portland is actually on a different river.

OCKLAWAHA