Metro Jacksonville

TECO Line Streetcar

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1133019806_kAdXf-M.jpg)

Metro Jacksonville takes a look at the transit oriented development that has been stimulated along Florida's only operating streetcar line: The TECO Line Streetcar.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-dec-teco-line-streetcar

Victory for the skyway who would have thunk it. Hopefully we have learned from our mistakes and others. If we do get a street car hopefully its done right the first time. Come on Jax lets get moving.

Victory in terms of ridership & integration with bus network and failure in terms of ability to coordinate land use and urban development with public mobility investments.  However, never under estimate the power of connectivity and clustering.  Just imagine if the we took the same path as Tampa and developed around the skyway stations over the past 20 years?  Downtown would actually have a little street life.

I absolutely hate Tampa. The majority of the city is dirty and they can not drinve!!! LOL However, they are doing alot things were not (like having black outs, hehehehe) But seriously, Im glad to see things going well. Hopefully were the second city to restablish the street car line. I personally hate the place and I have two friends who stayed down there for a few years and was so happy to get out of there. Im sure about now, but both people I know I had VERY hard time finding a job when they were there and thats why they left. Has anybody else heard this story?

I would definatley go downtown more if we had something like this.

DuvalDude, the majority of Tampa is not dirty and Jacksonville certainly is not cleaner. The city just has a lot of older houses and infrastructure than most cities in Florida, which means fit the typical stucco strip mall version of Florida that most folks have (yes, it still has plenty of that too). The unemployment rate is terrible here because this area was perhaps the hardest hit in the state by the real estate crash. Lots of Midwestern and Northeastern folks moves here and bought houses. While many stayed, many were simply flipping houses for a profit. This drove up the average housing costs to a point where most people who live here can't even afford a home in most areas of town.

The main problem here with the streetcar line is that the wealthy residents of Hyde Park have fought against the streetcar coming across the bridge from downtown and in to South Tampa. That is the main reason why the streetcar has failed in terms of ridership. If it came to the Hyde Park and Soho areas, ridership would dramatically increase because of all the residents in this area and walk-ability. The argument that was made against the streetcar is much the same one that many suburban Atlanta residents made about MARTA: if the streetcar line comes here, it will allow all of the criminals and low income people easy access to the neighborhood. What they fail to realize is that those people come here anyway. There are bums and beggars out walking the streets of much of the neighborhood all of the time. We had a few living under the Crosstown Exwy overpass on Platt for over a year.

Tampa certainly is not perfect when it comes to good urban planning, but it is light years ahead of Jacksonville. I am sad to see Pam Iorio leave next year because she truly understood the benefits of smart urban planning.

I've always found Tampa and Jacksonville to be quite similar in terms of aged building fabric and neighborhoods.  Although Jax is older, the majority of the city burned down in 1901.  Thus our rebuilding period took place around the same time Tampa began to grow into a city.  As for the streetcar, just getting the thing into downtown and the University of Tampa would be an accomplishment.  To this day, I still can't understand why downtown was never linked to the initial route.

We've got Potato-Chip-Trucks and a Skyway... The Skyway is "obviously superior"  to streetcars, it only cost Tampa $32 Million to build the original 2.2 mile line, but in JACKSONVILLE, we spent $200 Million on our 2.4 mile monorail.

JTA and JCCI both "knew" that streetcars were old, and slow, and "MUST compete with automobiles in traffic." The "authority," also knew that our monorail would attract 60,000 riders a day, and bring untold development downtown.

Well folks? We would have been the FIRST city to reconstruct a heritage streetcar system downtown 30 years ago, today we'd be number 80+. Funny how with the success of our monorail and all of its sundry Transit Oriented Development that 79 other major cities didn't jump in and build "Skyway's" isn't it?  Just think of the urban boom across the country if we had only shared our downtown TOD success!

Tampa only gets 800 people a day on their streetcar between "Nowhere and Nothing," but WE get 3,000 on our monorail between "Nowhere and Nothing," and ours passes through "Not Much," on the way! Tampa foolishly expected to pay for the streetcar operation as long as it exists, where in Jacksonville we knew a monorail would "make a profit."

IDIOTS!

Just look at that skyline down on the bay, yeah, just look at it!

OCKLAWAHA

What I didn't glean was why they called it TECO Line. Usually that is the Tampa Electric Company.

By the way the Florida Aquarium has the best skinny water mangrove exhibit I've seen anywhere.

So the TECO line operates in a larger downtown, travels through a dense residential area, and connects Tampa's premiere entertainment district and still only gets 800 people a day?  Wasn't it also free at one point?  Back when I think it was it looked like it still only got about 1300 a day.

Our skyway goes through a rapidly vacating downtown, *some* residential areas, and connects nothing notworthy, AND the turnstiles are often broken and/or inaccurate and we still have about 2000 riders a day.  OK, go Skyway.  If TECO really isn't useful/used, then the community knows it and the developers aren't going to be fooled.  I'm sure Channelside and Tampa really promote it, but the reason why growth is happening is probably because of the location, incentives, and/or walkability and convenience to *walk* to entertainment and work as well as be near water.

I think $2.50 one way is steep and $5.00 all day is also steep for public transit.  If Tampa were a city where you did not need a car, then $10 all day to use transit would actually be a deal compared to maintaining a car, but $5 + car is not a deal.

Quote from: DemocraticNole on December 21, 2010, 09:56:41 AM
DuvalDude, the majority of Tampa is not dirty and Jacksonville certainly is not cleaner. The city just has a lot of older houses and infrastructure than most cities in Florida, which means fit the typical stucco strip mall version of Florida that most folks have (yes, it still has plenty of that too). The unemployment rate is terrible here because this area was perhaps the hardest hit in the state by the real estate crash. Lots of Midwestern and Northeastern folks moves here and bought houses. While many stayed, many were simply flipping houses for a profit. This drove up the average housing costs to a point where most people who live here can't even afford a home in most areas of town.

The main problem here with the streetcar line is that the wealthy residents of Hyde Park have fought against the streetcar coming across the bridge from downtown and in to South Tampa. That is the main reason why the streetcar has failed in terms of ridership. If it came to the Hyde Park and Soho areas, ridership would dramatically increase because of all the residents in this area and walk-ability. The argument that was made against the streetcar is much the same one that many suburban Atlanta residents made about MARTA: if the streetcar line comes here, it will allow all of the criminals and low income people easy access to the neighborhood. What they fail to realize is that those people come here anyway. There are bums and beggars out walking the streets of much of the neighborhood all of the time. We had a few living under the Crosstown Exwy overpass on Platt for over a year.

Tampa certainly is not perfect when it comes to good urban planning, but it is light years ahead of Jacksonville. I am sad to see Pam Iorio leave next year because she truly understood the benefits of smart urban planning.

^^^Oh yeah of course. I acknowledge that. They are atleast getting things accomplished that we arent. I just dont find the city very appealing at all. Just as some people dont like Jax, I dont like tampa. The only nice areas are near USF and Busch Gardens, and there downtown more appealing than ours, but thats it. And as far as jobs, the two close friends of mine were staying down there was before the recession hit. My bestfriend has a degree and job experience, and could not find anything(in 2004) My other friend stayed down there in the late 90's, and after months of searching he found a telemarketing job that paid like 8.00 an hour. I think it may be the job to people ratio. (more people than jobs) Because there have been people that couldnt find work in Orlando either. Being that our metro area is so tiny, is probably why its much easier to find a job here.

T

Quote from: Overstreet on December 21, 2010, 10:25:28 AM
What I didn't glean was why they called it TECO Line. Usually that is the Tampa Electric Company.

they sold sponsor rights for the system and the various stations.....Tampa Electric paid for the naming rights to the system...aftre all, it runs on electric power  ;)

Clearly, this Brian Blair considers Ybor, Channelside, the Aquarium, the Port, the Convention Center, and all the nearby infill "nowhere."

Quote
"It goes from no place to nowhere," says Hillsborough County Commissioner Brian Blair, an opponent of the project.

Did I miss something or is he just part of the 'anti-rail cult'?

Quote from: simms3 on December 21, 2010, 10:35:46 AM
So the TECO line operates in a larger downtown, travels through a dense residential area, and connects Tampa's premiere entertainment district and still only gets 800 people a day?  Wasn't it also free at one point?  Back when I think it was it looked like it still only got about 1300 a day.

It doesn't go into downtown Tampa, which I find quite puzzling.  I also doubt that DT Tampa is larger than DT Jax.  Its loaded with just as many surface parking lots if not more.

QuoteIf TECO really isn't useful/used, then the community knows it and the developers aren't going to be fooled.  I'm sure Channelside and Tampa really promote it, but the reason why growth is happening is probably because of the location, incentives, and/or walkability and convenience to *walk* to entertainment and work as well as be near water.

The TECO line is a tourist train no doubt.  However, developers are building around the line.  A part of that reason is that it does add to the element of walkability, location, entertainment and convenience.  To a degree, it is an attraction itself in a way that their HART PCT can never be.

QuoteI think $2.50 one way is steep and $5.00 all day is also steep for public transit.  If Tampa were a city where you did not need a car, then $10 all day to use transit would actually be a deal compared to maintaining a car, but $5 + car is not a deal.

Due to their route eliminating a significant amount of potential everyday riders (service doesn't start till 11am, doesn't go downtown), it has to rely on the tourism segment, which in turn, limits fare box revenue.  This has lead to a reduction in frequency of service, which in turn negatively affects ridership as well.  This is why its important during the design stage to plan accordingly for whatever transportation mode you chose.  From the start you have to provide a reliable service that gets people to where they want to go in a timely matter.  The TECO Line does not do that for the local population.  That's a challenge Tampa will have to overcome.

^^^I agree downtown Jacksonville is MUCH bigger. Especially when you include the southbank. The only difference is ours is empty lmao

Btw on Saturday, I left the truck in the hotel garage and used my feet and the streetcar to get between DT, the Channel District and Ybor.  On that particular day (there was a NHL game across the street and a Justin Bieber concert), $5 for all day access was a deal.  Not worrying about finding a parking space, paying for one or getting caught up in traffic was pretty sweet.

Tampa Electric Company or "TECO," had its beginnings in 1899 as a company that managed the electric trolley system serving the 12-year-old city of Tampa. Investors from the Boston area provided most of the capital. The streetcars themselves go back to 1892. Yep, I'd call it TECO too. Jacksonville's system was Jacksonville Electric Company as well until 1912 when the JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY took over.

OCKLAWAHA

On a scale of 1 to 10, my knowledge of Tampa is about a -2, and my knowledge about transit ridership statistics about a 0.5.

So... upcoming stupid question alert!

How on Earth can there be hundreds more residential units supposedly having been built 'oriented' to this line (never mind pre-existing units in the area) than there are daily users of the line? Why would hundreds of people move into these TODs and not even use the very... T... that brought them to be built?

Economic conditions aside (I assume like the rest of the state, on and off transit lines) a significant amount of units are empty), you could have a situation similar to the Hilton Garden Inn issue in Jax.  The hotel developer builds at a transit station under and the transit authority reduces service later.  Thus, you could have purchased a unit expecting to have the option of transit to get you to work along the corridor but if service is modified and doesn't start till 11am, you're going to have to find another way to get to your job at 8am.

Quote from: duvaldude08 on December 21, 2010, 10:38:25 AM

Quote from: DemocraticNole on December 21, 2010, 09:56:41 AM
DuvalDude, the majority of Tampa is not dirty and Jacksonville certainly is not cleaner. The city just has a lot of older houses and infrastructure than most cities in Florida, which means fit the typical stucco strip mall version of Florida that most folks have (yes, it still has plenty of that too). The unemployment rate is terrible here because this area was perhaps the hardest hit in the state by the real estate crash. Lots of Midwestern and Northeastern folks moves here and bought houses. While many stayed, many were simply flipping houses for a profit. This drove up the average housing costs to a point where most people who live here can't even afford a home in most areas of town.

The main problem here with the streetcar line is that the wealthy residents of Hyde Park have fought against the streetcar coming across the bridge from downtown and in to South Tampa. That is the main reason why the streetcar has failed in terms of ridership. If it came to the Hyde Park and Soho areas, ridership would dramatically increase because of all the residents in this area and walk-ability. The argument that was made against the streetcar is much the same one that many suburban Atlanta residents made about MARTA: if the streetcar line comes here, it will allow all of the criminals and low income people easy access to the neighborhood. What they fail to realize is that those people come here anyway. There are bums and beggars out walking the streets of much of the neighborhood all of the time. We had a few living under the Crosstown Exwy overpass on Platt for over a year.

Tampa certainly is not perfect when it comes to good urban planning, but it is light years ahead of Jacksonville. I am sad to see Pam Iorio leave next year because she truly understood the benefits of smart urban planning.

^^^Oh yeah of course. I acknowledge that. They are atleast getting things accomplished that we arent. I just dont find the city very appealing at all. Just as some people dont like Jax, I dont like tampa. The only nice areas are near USF and Busch Gardens, and there downtown more appealing than ours, but thats it. And as far as jobs, the two close friends of mine were staying down there was before the recession hit. My bestfriend has a degree and job experience, and could not find anything(in 2004) My other friend stayed down there in the late 90's, and after months of searching he found a telemarketing job that paid like 8.00 an hour. I think it may be the job to people ratio. (more people than jobs) Because there have been people that couldnt find work in Orlando either. Being that our metro area is so tiny, is probably why its much easier to find a job here.

I have lived in both Jacksonville (why I still read this site) and Tampa and to me Tampa is a far superior place to live in every way with the exception of road infrastructure, for which the Tampa/St. Pete metro is one of the worst in the country given it's size. Just an FYI, but most people here consider USF and Busch Gardens to be in a ghetto area of town, so I am not sure how much time you have spent here or where you ventured. The job market is tough and there is a lot of what I would call "fake money" here. I understand your points though.

Also, to say the streetcar does not go to downtown Tampa is just false. Pretty much the entire area north and west of the Crosstown Exwy, east of the Hillsborough River and south of I-4/I-275 is considered downtown. Most would also consider the Channel District to be downtown as well. So the line most definitely goes downtown. It just does not go across the river to UT and Hyde Park, which is the big problem. That is the main reason folks here consider the streetcar to go from nowhere to nowhere. It starts in a very nondescript part of downtown and goes to Ybor. While there are many condos in the Channel District, I would say over 50% sit vacant as many were built speculatively before the economy tanked. So basically the line works well for tourists staying at three or four hotels, or those who live in the Channel District and or Ybor who are looking to go to a few bars or a hockey game. That group does not include that many people and is thus why ridership suffers. Most people still have to drive to work, to get to the airport/Raymond James Stadium, or to get to the Soho bars. If the line is ever going to be successful, it needs to continue north through downtown to get to the Performing Arts Center and then should go across the Cass St. Bridge to hit UT and continue over towards Howard/Armenia. 

Quote from: simms3 on December 21, 2010, 10:35:46 AM
OK, go Skyway.  If TECO really isn't useful/used, then the community knows it and the developers aren't going to be fooled.  I'm sure Channelside and Tampa really promote it, but the reason why growth is happening is probably because of the location, incentives, and/or walkability and convenience to *walk* to entertainment and work as well as be near water.

Sorry but the Skyway loses big time, even if it DID carry 60,000 people a day. The only development that openly attributes its location to the Skyway is the Omni-Bank complex. Tampa has documented over a BILLION dollars in "TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT." This isn't just development near transit, but usually it means development that agreed to a special taxation or transit district funding in order to be next to the tracks. If this was unique to Tampa one might say that "Jacksonville isn't dense enough," "not enough infill," "too small," "maybe someday...etc." The fact is this is following RAIL BASED FIXED TRANSIT in 80 cities, over 70 of which had no RAIL just 25 years ago.

It's what MJ has been saying all along, Monorails won't do it, buses won't do it, BRT won't do it, flying boats or pogo sticks won't do it, but RAIL IS KEY to returning our "town," to a "city." Currently according to the Cincinnati Streetcar Study, rail development is returning $14 dollars in new development for every $1 dollar invested. Unlike the SKYWAY, with those kind of numbers ridership becomes a distant second in importance.
SEE: http://www.protransit.com/FAQs/



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: rainfrog on December 21, 2010, 11:08:51 AM
On a scale of 1 to 10, my knowledge of Tampa is about a -2, and my knowledge about transit ridership statistics about a 0.5.

So... upcoming stupid question alert!

How on Earth can there be hundreds more residential units supposedly having been built 'oriented' to this line (never mind pre-existing units in the area) than there are daily users of the line? Why would hundreds of people move into these TODs and not even use the very... T... that brought them to be built?

Not a stupid question, but an interesting one! Bottom line even if 50,000 condos and apartments had been built along the line (which by the way would probably finance its operation FOREVER) and even if 1 person per unit moved in for 100% occupancy, not everyone is going to Ybor City every day. As has been pointed out unless the streetcar line can string together homes + jobs + shopping + attraction then it fails to make a dent in ridership. Ybor and Channelside are entertainment districts, so they have attractions, and they have homes, end of story unless everyone goes out to play everyday. By not focusing on the populas of the city they have built just another Florida attraction, and it works as a development attraction and once in a while vacation play thing, but fails to provide transit.

In Jacksonville we have the opportunity to string pearls right from the start...
PARK AND KING entertainment/shopping area
Historic 5 Points
Memorial Park
Cummer Museum
Arts Market
Riverwalk South
Major HQ office towers-Fortune 500 companies
200 Riverside hotel
Myrtle Avenue historic area
Florida's only subway
Jacksonville regional transportation center
CSX HQ-Fortune 500
Omni hotel
Times-Union performing arts Center
The Landing
Laura Street
Hyatt Hotel
Riverwalk North
East Bay entertainment district

All of this BEFORE we see the first shovel of dirt, just imagine the possiblities after it's rolling, new convention center, Bay Street Station, aquarium, southern rock and blues hall of fame, Negro League Museum, etc...

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: DemocraticNole on December 21, 2010, 11:30:05 AM
Also, to say the streetcar does not go to downtown Tampa is just false. Pretty much the entire area north and west of the Crosstown Exwy, east of the Hillsborough River and south of I-4/I-275 is considered downtown. Most would also consider the Channel District to be downtown as well. So the line most definitely goes downtown. It just does not go across the river to UT and Hyde Park, which is the big problem.

Its universally accepted that most transit riders won't walk more than 1/4 mile to get to access a transit stop.  I'm sure that distance shrinks if you're casually dressed to work in an office environment in a region where temperatures routinely top 90 degrees with humidity.  

(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/reference/rc02159.jpg)
Franklin & Zack Streets during DT Tampa's heyday.

I grew up in the area and am pretty familiar with the area's history.  The true heart of DT Tampa has always been north of Kennedy with Franklin Street serving as the commercial spine.  From the start, the former industrialized Channel District was cut off from DT by the railyard serving the old port terminals of what is now Harbour Island.  The area where the convention center how stands was industrial and maritime related as well (sort of like Jax's Commodore's Point area).

(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/reference/rc20659.jpg)
Here is an old aerial.  You can see the core of downtown on the far left and the industrial area which is now the convention center on the right at the mouth of the Hillsborough River.  Not many would be willing to walk that distance to catch a streetcar that runs every 25 minutes to Channelside or Ybor.  Btw, for those not familiar with Tampa, the Channel District can be seen at the top of this image between the Ybor Channel and the rail line.

The streetcar's extension to Whiting Street (which is roughly the current edge of building fabric in DT Tampa) is 0.33 miles from the starter segment's "end-of-the-line" at the convention center.   Kennedy is another 0.17 miles north of Whiting making the walk to the nearest streetcar stop 1/2 mile.  You're not going to attract many riders if they have to walk 1/2 mile to the nearest stop and most of that walk happens to be a mix of expressways, wide one way streets and surface parking lots. To compare that to Jax, it would be like walking from the Landing or Omni to the Prime Osborn to catch a streetcar to Five Points to eat lunch.  So, if they really want to connect to DT Tampa, they need to find a way to get that thing to the heart of DT and directly tie it in to UT, the office towers and newer attractions and hotels a couple of blocks north of Kennedy.

QuoteThat is the main reason folks here consider the streetcar to go from nowhere to nowhere. It starts in a very nondescript part of downtown and goes to Ybor. While there are many condos in the Channel District, I would say over 50% sit vacant as many were built speculatively before the economy tanked. So basically the line works well for tourists staying at three or four hotels, or those who live in the Channel District and or Ybor who are looking to go to a few bars or a hockey game. That group does not include that many people and is thus why ridership suffers. Most people still have to drive to work, to get to the airport/Raymond James Stadium, or to get to the Soho bars. If the line is ever going to be successful, it needs to continue north through downtown to get to the Performing Arts Center and then should go across the Cass St. Bridge to hit UT and continue over towards Howard/Armenia.

Definitely agree here.  For it to work for local residents, it at least needs to hit the true historic heart of downtown and a few inner city neighborhoods like Tampa Heights, Hyde Park and SOHO.  With that in mind, Tampa should consider at least purchasing the CSX track west of Union Station.  It has little freight traffic and hits the heart of DT, UT, Hyde Park, SOHO and South Tampa, making it an ideal corridor to tie in several inner city destinations.

Quote from: DemocraticNole on December 21, 2010, 11:30:05 AM
It just does not go across the river to UT and Hyde Park, which is the big problem...
...Most people still have to drive to work, to get to the airport/Raymond James Stadium, or to get to the Soho bars. If the line is ever going to be successful, it needs to continue north through downtown to get to the Performing Arts Center and then should go across the Cass St. Bridge to hit UT and continue over towards Howard/Armenia. 

As you can see, it DID cross the river AND the Bay at one time...

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TRDlY6qTosI/AAAAAAAADT8/ISiLwkbv1A4/s800/Streetcar%20draw%20bridge%20TAMPA.jpg)
Early drawbridge in Tampa

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TRDlZHgqc4I/AAAAAAAADUA/1SyB0KlKo6s/s800/streetcarTAMPAlafayetteSTbridge.jpg)
Lafayette/Kennedy Street Bridge

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3639/3493703777_050242ba6e_z.jpg)
TECO system map

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TRDlZFdCEfI/AAAAAAAADUE/hlOtN0ly6D4/s800/STREETCARtampaBAYSHORE_bl1915lookingSE.jpg)
Bayshore Bl, looking southeast from the 1500 block in 1915

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TRC8LE3zolI/AAAAAAAADTo/dQXdTgeR6ik/s800/streetcar_interior_LAMT.jpg)
Just like our rock hard PCT seats... NOT

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TRDlZfL2tUI/AAAAAAAADUI/L7f7i5iaOls/s800/STREETCARtampa.jpg)
Mid WWII

OCKLAWAHA

First of all the area around USF/Busch Gardens up into Temple Terrace is *not* nice.  The only nice intown area of Tampa is Hyde Park, for which it has been established that the residents don't want the streetcar.  Now I might ask, if the residents there do not want the streetcar, if the streetcar went to Hyde Park would the residents actually use it?  The residents of Channelside are younger, more frequently single, loft/condo types who are in the demographic that traditionally uses public transit in cities, and they don't even use the TECO, so I doubt Hyde Park residents (which are more akin to Ortega residents) would use the TECO.

Also, I agree Franklin is definitely the spine of downtown Tampa, which has more office space and definitely *A LOT* more class A office space than downtown Jacksonville.  The TECO is being extended to within a quarter mile of 90% of all DT Tampa office space.  When I say a downtown is larger, I am not talking about land area.  DT Tampa has around 9 million SF of space and around a 19% vacancy.  DT Jacksonville has around 8 million SF of space and 23-25% vacancy.  That's an over 1 million SF occupied difference, which could be anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 employees.

Quote from: simms3 on December 21, 2010, 01:31:47 PM
First of all the area around USF/Busch Gardens up into Temple Terrace is *not* nice.  The only nice intown area of Tampa is Hyde Park, for which it has been established that the residents don't want the streetcar.  Now I might ask, if the residents there do not want the streetcar, if the streetcar went to Hyde Park would the residents actually use it?  The residents of Channelside are younger, more frequently single, loft/condo types who are in the demographic that traditionally uses public transit in cities, and they don't even use the TECO, so I doubt Hyde Park residents (which are more akin to Ortega residents) would use the TECO.

Also, I agree Franklin is definitely the spine of downtown Tampa, which has more office space and definitely *A LOT* more class A office space than downtown Jacksonville.  The TECO is being extended to within a quarter mile of 90% of all DT Tampa office space.  When I say a downtown is larger, I am not talking about land area.  DT Tampa has around 9 million SF of space and around a 19% vacancy.  DT Jacksonville has around 8 million SF of space and 23-25% vacancy.  That's an over 1 million SF occupied difference, which could be anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 employees.

Oh ok gotcha. I thought you meant physically. That make sense.

Putting actual operations aside, I still think there is a huge difference between being a 1/4 mile on the edge  90% of office space vs a 1/4 mile in the center of everything.  If you're going to make such a significant investment in a fixed system, why not put it where the majority of people within a specific area can use it?

Also, Davis Islands, Harbour Island and just about everything south of Kennedy are pretty nice.  Tampa isn't as bad as some make it seem.  Its basically a larger more comsopolitan version of Jacksonville.

^^^I have to start stuff. LOL Larger in what sense?

Population and general numbers.  For the most part, whatever we have they have at least double.  That's not a knock on Jax.  It's just a larger metro.

^^^Oh ok. LOL Thats what I figured you meant. If we had a larger metro area on top of our city population, it would be massive. Unforutnately I dont think most of our out skirts will remain rural and wooded.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2010, 10:57:49 AM
On that particular day (there was a NHL game across the street and a Justin Bieber concert), $5 for all day access was a deal. 

Now we know why you were in Tampa  ;D

the street car will never be useful  till it head north to  kennedy blvd,franklin street mall,Tampa Theatre, marion transit center.

A streetcar line with only 800 riders a day is a joke; That's less than Jax's ASE! Particularly since TECO is catered to tourists! People can try to sugarcoat it if they want to. Maybe Jax is not as some say, "getting blown outta the water" but refusing to go into "shark infested waters" by making a mistake like this. You'd think that TECO had the overwhelming success like MARTA, MTA or something the way some are talking about it; I'm quite sure that people in Tampa don't think so highly of it. With the NIMBY problems, etc. even with an extension, TECO's overall success in the grand scheme of things is questionable at best. For the people who want streetcar here, go to the place where the people who actually ride public transportation in this city (ASE and bus), the Rosa Parks bus station DT and ask them if they want streetcar here; Something is telling me that ratio would not be in favor of bringing it here. The hard working blue collar people is who my money is on, not some hipster who loves trendy nightlife.   

Don't know about everyone but I'll spend $48 million on a transit mistake that stimulates a billion in property tax paying TOD within five years of its opening anyday.  We just dropped +$200 million on the I-95/I-10 interchange and its not going to bring in any type of economic revitalization to the surrounding neighborhoods it cuts in half.  So if I'm Jax, I'd look to get the transit side of the equation right and also seek to benefit from the economic impact of resulting TOD for the surrounding communities.  It's okay to have icing on the cake, imo.  Also, good transit has nothing to do with being trendy or a hipster.  This is all about economic power, quality of life and taking Jax to the next level.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2010, 08:07:52 PM
This is all about economic power, quality of life and taking Jax to the next level.

lake...........I concur! Infill and the like......for a dollar, six in return, tis a no brainer to me, but what do I know, just a lowly taxpayer!

Real shame you can't see the forest for the tree's I-10E. Those poor blue collar workers in Jacksonville that didn't get the streetcar 30 years ago have been paying for every nickle of this city's infrastructure improvements and all that goes along with it.  The same people in the 80+ cities that have gone back to streetcars have experienced what amounts to massive tax relief as the new development is now paying for their city's futures with it's tax money.

In the new Cincinnati Streetcar Study, a city in the same boat as us has realized that for every dollar they spend on their planned streetcar, they will get $14 in new PRIVATE construction. At that rate a $50 million dollar streetcar line in Jacksonville will net us $700,000,000 in new development.

Quote
Economic development

The construction of a a modern streetcar system in Cincinnati will be a vital investment in the urban core.  A streetcar will focus development along the route, connect the existing economic engines of the city, and bring thousands of new residents and jobs into Cincinnati.

Phase 1 of the streetcar system would cost $102 million, according to the HDR study.  This investment would increase the property values along the line by $379 million and enable $1.4 billion of new development to occur.

For each dollar invested, the city would reap approximately $14 in new economic activity.

Increased Commercial Development

The streetcar will increase the population downtown and encourage more people to come patronize downtown business.   The economic impact study estimates an additional $17 million in retail spending from the new residents alone.

More people living downtown translates into more retail opportunities downtown for those who live there and those coming in to visit.  Phase 1 of the streetcar system will lead to million of new dollars in retail activity and additional retail choices downtown.

HOW WOULD IT EFFECT A CITY WITH RAP - SMP - SPAR? ASK CINCINNATI...

QuoteA treasure like Over-the-Rhine exists nowhere else in the country.  Over-the-Rhine is the largest collection of Italianate Architecture in the United States and was named one of the 11 most endangered historic sites in America.  The streetcar can help save the wonderful structures and houses that remain in Over-the-Rhine by cutting down parking ratios, encouraging renovations of old buildings, and increasing home ownership levels.
By lessening the importance of the automobile and encouraging renovations and rehabilitations, Phase 1 of the streetcar system will help preserve Cincinnati’s most unique and historic neighborhood.

Housing

HDR's study estimates building Phase 1 of the streetcar system will lead to the development of 314 new residential units a year for the next ten years, bringing thousands of new residents into the urban core.

The streetcar will greatly increase the speed at which downtown development occurs.  The HDR study looks at long term development trends and the effects of the streetcar.  Without the streetcar, the number of residential units downtown is predicted to rise to 2000 units by 2039.  With the streetcar 2000 units will be reached in 2018, a full 21 years sooner.

Developers will make long term investment decisions based on a streetcar line that they wouldn't make on a bus line.  The streetcar is a permanent improvement that can’t be easily changed. Changing a bus route only requires a can of orange paint.

Downtown Cincinnati is undergoing a condo building boom, but too many of these projects appeal only to the high end market.  Currently parking is holding back building more affordable housing in the Central Business District.  Many Young Professionals, a demographic that has consistently embraced urban living, is too often priced out of condos downtown.

For more information on streetcar transit, visit the City of Cincinnati's Streetcar Transit FAQS

SOURCE:  http://www.cincystreetcar.com/economicdevelopment.html

Looking at Tampa's route, one wonders if they ever drew up a station-function based planning sheet...

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TRFVT_gsl5I/AAAAAAAADUY/_0YgV0gVKTc/s640/streetcar%20planning%20jacksonville.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

The Tampa route was designed for 2 purposes:

1. Revitalize the Channel District
2. Provide connection from Convention Center area to Ybor entertainment district

It has done both very well

Quote from: thelakelander on December 21, 2010, 08:07:52 PM
Don't know about everyone but I'll spend $48 million on a transit mistake that stimulates a billion in property tax paying TOD within five years of its opening any day.

Problem with that is, there are VERY few people out there (most on this site excluded, of course) who can equate the two a) by even bothering to try, or b) without getting lost in their own politics.

I did a lil' research on rail style Transit Oriented Development. So basically the goal of an extreme TOD system is to create clusters of dense urban living, at the same time driving property values so high that it wipes out affordable housing; That's a "win win" for everybody. One thing about bus, you still have an transit option whether you live in a modest home on Moncrief Rd, or a dream house on St Johns Ave. Who the hell is (the astronomic raising of property values) is this benefiting besides home sellers & real estate companies? I'm not the 'fortunate one' or someone in real estate so why should I want rail in Jax?  It's not even a sure shot that property values will increase so highly if the conditions aren't right (various factors; ridership, economy, demand for expanding stations etc.) The conditions are definitely not right in Tampa right now.

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 21, 2010, 09:45:29 PM
The Tampa route was designed for 2 purposes:

1. Revitalize the Channel District
2. Provide connection from Convention Center area to Ybor entertainment district

It has done both very well

Maybe so TU, but the fact that they missed the citizens makes it no more useful than a tourist attraction. A loop through downtown and back out alongside Twiggs or another avenue to Union Station and back to Channelside would have at least connected where the people work, and the many new condos. Perhaps it was budget, or Florida bone-heads that have done without rail for so long not even Grandpappymos remembers how it works? Using that same criteria we could build ours from Fort Caroline to the Beach... sort of misses something.

I think the plan we have worked out and the COJ is proposing has a lot more balance as a transportation system.

OCKLAWAHA

I-10, we're all entitled to our opinions and its your right to oppose the concept, but let's at least apply facts to the situation across the board.

There are several examples of fixed transit lines spurring affordable housing for transit dependent residents and making the distressed areas around them nicer places to live across the U.S.  You can visit this link to learn more about some of them. 

http://www.drcog.org/index.cfm?page=AffordableHousing

Also, buses don't disappear.  They are used to improve service along less traveled routes and serve as feeder lines for areas not adjacent to the major transit spine.  In the end, the goal is to develop a more efficient transportation network.  Not only in terms of usability but also cost effective financial utilization.

 

Quote from: I-10east on December 22, 2010, 09:36:20 AM
I did a lil' research on rail style Transit Oriented Development. So basically the goal of an extreme TOD system is to create clusters of dense urban living, at the same time driving property values so high that it wipes out affordable housing; That's a "win win" for everybody. One thing about bus, you still have an transit option whether you live in a modest home on Moncrief Rd, or a dream house on St Johns Ave. Who the hell is (the astronomic raising of property values) is this benefiting besides home sellers & real estate companies?  

So a developer that jumps in and builds unsellable million dollar condos, and goes broke, benefits real estate people? and what about development of restaurants, boutiques, pharmacy's, salons, etc... You really think only the rich will benefit from those? ...and there is the jobs created factor if your interested.

Also just what affordable housing is "wiped out" by a streetcar in the middle of the damn street? REALLY?

One thing you can bank on, there will be no significant development, job creation, or tourism created anywhere along the route with a bus.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on December 22, 2010, 10:00:25 AM
Also, buses don't disappear.  They are used to improve service along less traveled routes and serve as feeder lines for areas not adjacent to the major transit spine.  In the end, the goal is to develop a more efficient transportation network.  Not only in terms of usability but also cost effective financial utilization.

So to put it in Jax-relevant terms (and not to hijack the thread):

Utilize the existing rail 'spines' up Philips and run 'express' buses down Atlantic, Beach, JTB, and Baymeadows, and up Southside to tie into them?  

Same for US-17 in O.P./West Side with buses down Wells, Kingsley, Blanding, and out 103rd?

Or is all that just grossly over-simplified?

^That's about as simple as it gets!

You think it would actually work?  Logistically?

It's not all Hyde Park residents who are against the streetcar. There are many young professionals who live in the area (like myself) who would love the streetcar to come through the neighborhood and would definitely use. However, most of these folks don't have lots of money and don't vote. Most of the wealthy homeowners in the area do vote and are against it, with most using the MARTA excuse as I mentioned before. The clout of these folks is the same reason they are basically ruining the Gasparilla parade because of all of the crack downs on things like open containers and what not.

I think the key in getting the streetcar across the river is selecting the right route. By using the Cass Street Bridge, it accomplishes several things. First, it takes the streetcar through downtown and connects it with important sites like the new waterfront park, art museum, and performing arts center. Second, the Cass Street Bridge goes right by UT and in to a neighborhood that was starting to gentrify prior to the economic collapse. I am pretty sure that the street had a streetcar back in the day because it is a wide thoroughfare even though it is two lane. There is limited traffic on Cass, which means the streetcar would not disrupt traffic flow. Vintage Lofts is also a huge new and nice apartment complex a block from Cass that would serve the line well. Third, you take the line over to Armenia and then south, but not south of Swann. This would allow it to serve the Publix Greenwise market, several apartment complexes, and most of the SoHo bars without getting it close enough to all of the wealthy homes that wouldn't want it.

Whoa, I ruffled some feathers. I'm not gonna pretend that I know alot about transit infrastructure, that's why I said I did only a lil' research on TOD LOL. I know where yall stand on wanting streetcar in Jax. I promised not to even partake in "streetcar threads" but only did so because Lake made this interesting thread about TECO a concerning streetcar system with only 800 riders; Apparently no one has any concerns with TECO, and everything is all good down there. As a Jax resident, something is telling me "slow down a lil" when it comes to suddenly bringing in streetcar when Tampa "the Cosmo version of Jax" is struggling with it's ridership.

Quote from: Doctor_K on December 22, 2010, 10:07:04 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on December 22, 2010, 10:00:25 AM
Also, buses don't disappear.  They are used to improve service along less traveled routes and serve as feeder lines for areas not adjacent to the major transit spine.  In the end, the goal is to develop a more efficient transportation network.  Not only in terms of usability but also cost effective financial utilization.

So to put it in Jax-relevant terms (and not to hijack the thread):

Utilize the existing rail 'spines' up Philips and run 'express' buses down Atlantic, Beach, JTB, and Baymeadows, and up Southside to tie into them?  

Same for US-17 in O.P./West Side with buses down Wells, Kingsley, Blanding, and out 103rd?

Or is all that just grossly over-simplified?

By Job you've got it!  Basically you've got your mainlines and you've got your collector/distributor routes. The very heavy mainlines (Roosevelt - Philips - etc) get handed off to COMMUTER RAIL.  Where there is no current rail you convert those heavy routes (Arlington Expressway-JTB-Beach-Blanding) over to a combination of BUS RAPID TRANSIT or LIGHT RAIL. Then the remaining light density areas and areas of town that have no current service can use the surplus buses ( bumped off their routes by the new system ) to greatly increase their mobility and accessibility.  Where you have heavy urban density but not necessarily main arterial roads streetcars can serve as both transit and as a development tool.  

Sure it will work, it works all over the world.


OCKLAWAHA

I-10, my feathers aren't ruffled.  I just like to take advantage of posts to sell the concept.  Regarding the TECO Line, I stated in the article that although it has successfully stimulated TOD, it fails in terms of being a viable transit option for local residents and that this is the challenge Tampa will have to overcome going forward.  So what all of this tells me is not to slow down.  Instead, when applied to Jacksonville's setting, take advantage of the successful methods implemented with the TECO line (affordable construction, TOD stimulation, etc.) and avoid the line's pitfalls (poor route planning, operations, etc.).  In the end, no hard feelings.  I don't get upset about anything said online.

I wasn't upset, no hard feelings Lake.

^^^LOL

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 22, 2010, 09:48:25 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 21, 2010, 09:45:29 PM
The Tampa route was designed for 2 purposes:

1. Revitalize the Channel District
2. Provide connection from Convention Center area to Ybor entertainment district

It has done both very well

Maybe so TU, but the fact that they missed the citizens makes it no more useful than a tourist attraction.

sure, its mainly a tourist attraction....but there are a good number of residents (citizens) who live in Channelside and Ybor City...with a bunch more living a short walk away on the northern edge of Harbor Island.

Again, the line is only 2.4 miles long...realistically it should be extended north through downton and into Tampa Heights...and west into the Hyde Park and SoHo areas.

btw...having lived in south Tampa, I rarely heard that Hyde Park people were opposed to the streetcar..even the wealthy ones.

Quote from: I-10east on December 22, 2010, 10:33:06 AM
Whoa, I ruffled some feathers. I'm not gonna pretend that I know alot about transit infrastructure, that's why I said I did only a lil' research on TOD LOL. I know where yall stand on wanting streetcar in Jax. I promised not to even partake in "streetcar threads" but only did so because Lake made this interesting thread about TECO a concerning streetcar system with only 800 riders; Apparently no one has any concerns with TECO, and everything is all good down there. As a Jax resident, something is telling me "slow down a lil" when it comes to suddenly bringing in streetcar when Tampa "the Cosmo version of Jax" is struggling with it's ridership.

Nothing ruffled here, just my usual, take no prisoners, "Doctor House," sarcasm...LOL.  

Working within the industry (and I can tell you a least a half dozen of us, from site owners to member-contributors are Urban Planners-Transit Planners-Railroad Professionals) what we are trying to get across to the City of Jacksonville and it's citizens is it is not so much about ridership as it is job creation, and development of a much larger and healthier tax revenue base. Any tax revenue that is generated by new downtown development is tax revenue that people in Murray Hill, Lakeshore, Cedar Hills, Englewood... WON'T HAVE TO PAY.

So in the end we get many new jobs, many new community improvements, new attractions, new shopping, and even some new housing (we're talking bare area's like LaVilla or Brooklyn) and we don't foot the bill for it. THAT is why it is WIN-WIN... and if we can design it so unlike Tampa, more people are attracted to it... then hey, we win again.

I will tell you that in all 80+ cities, Tampa is the only one I can think of who's ridership hasn't blown away expectations. People love streetcars, and they ride them if they can be given any sort of reason to do so. Back in the day... and returning today is something called "streetcar daycare," where young people fill the cars on Saturdays and Sundays just for the ride. The script for the famous 1944 movie, meet me in St. Louis (reference to the 1904 St Louis Worlds Fair) tells the story:

Quote
~Judy~
With my high-starched collar, and my high-topped shoes
And my hair piled high upon my head
I went to lose a jolly hour on the Trolley and lost my heart instead.

A good part of the reason for posting this is that Tampa has failed in ridership where more then 80 others have succeeded, WHY? It sure as hell isn't because they are in Florida, since it works everywhere, it sure should work here. I think the error is not unlike our Skyway, it runs from "tourism to tourism" without passing through "population." At least the Skyway runs from Bus to Commercial, so it does twice as well... mile for mile the busiest transit route in Jacksonville. At roughly 1400 people per-mile-per-day, imagine if the Skyway system was 10 miles long... Would we still be complaining if it was carrying 14,000 a day?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 22, 2010, 10:38:34 AM
By Job you've got it!  Basically you've got your mainlines and you've got your collector/distributor routes. The very heavy mainlines (Roosevelt - Philips - etc) get handed off to COMMUTER RAIL.  Where there is no current rail you convert those heavy routes (Arlington Expressway-JTB-Beach-Blanding) over to a combination of BUS RAPID TRANSIT or LIGHT RAIL. Then the remaining light density areas and areas of town that have no current service can use the surplus buses ( bumped off their routes by the new system ) to greatly increase their mobility and accessibility.  Where you have heavy urban density but not necessarily main arterial roads streetcars can serve as both transit and as a development tool.  

Sure it will work, it works all over the world.


OCKLAWAHA

Except here, where the leadership has its collective head up some nether-region or another?  Or at least, where politics overrides common sense?

We were in Tampa at the convention center Saturday night.  I had a few hours to spare with the boys and noticed the streetcar.  So for $12.50 we bought a family day pass and took a round trip.  It was fun.  Because of the $2.50 one way adult trip fare, I can see that this is definitely a tourist attraction more than a way for locals to commute.

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2ch4b9i.jpg)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/qx0y9k.jpg)
(http://i53.tinypic.com/14xori8.jpg)

Notice in the last photo (on the right) that they also have the "trolley' PCTs.  We skipped those.

lol, most do. Unfortunately, both their PCT and streetcars operate with weird schedules.

the main purpose of the trolleys is to carry office workers through downtown...the streetcar's principal purpose (right now) is carrying conventioneers and other visitors between the Channelside area and Ybor City

Oh that Tampa convention center still gives me hives at the sight of it (bar exam).

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 10, 2011, 06:50:01 PM
Oh that Tampa convention center still gives me hives at the sight of it (bar exam).

And we all know how much you love convention centers...

I enjoyed Tampa the last time I went. Can't remember where we stayed but we went downtown to the riverwalk and it was so nice. It's a lil better than Jacksonville's. More activity and foliage. They also have some other type of trolley that operates during the day and night. Two different tracks though. Their downtown seemed extremely small though, just a few skyscrapers and that's it... maybe it was just me.

Quote from: dougskiles on May 10, 2011, 07:56:15 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 10, 2011, 06:50:01 PM
Oh that Tampa convention center still gives me hives at the sight of it (bar exam).

And we all know how much you love convention centers...

You know, maybe there's some deep-rooted psychological reason behind my hatred of the convention center proposal, since I endured so much torture inside one. Didn't dawn on me till' now...lol. You've got a good eye.

Quote from: iMarvin on May 10, 2011, 08:07:11 PM
They also have some other type of trolley that operates during the day and night. Two different tracks though.

Correction iMarvin, they have a REAL TROLLEY on real trolley (railroad) track and we don't, simple as that. Two tracks? or two rails? (it's hard to balance the train on just one!)  Generally the TECO streetcar or trolley line is one track, but their are passing tracks here and there to allow the cars to get around each other. Did you ride on it? AWESOME.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 10, 2011, 09:07:32 PM

Quote from: iMarvin on May 10, 2011, 08:07:11 PM
They also have some other type of trolley that operates during the day and night. Two different tracks though.

Correction iMarvin, they have a REAL TROLLEY on real trolley (railroad) track and we don't, simple as that. Two tracks? or two rails? (it's hard to balance the train on just one!)  Generally the TECO streetcar or trolley line is one track, but their are passing tracks here and there to allow the cars to get around each other. Did you ride on it? AWESOME.

OCKLAWAHA

Sorry, I confused myself and thought that the in town trolley was an actual trolley on a railroad. When I went to the one of the stations I was a rail line so I thought the trolley(not TECO) was also on rail. Guess they shared a station, my mistake... Oh, and yeah I rode the TECO. I just thought it was the in town trolley.

Something to keep our eyes on as we plan our own streetcar system:

QuoteBoard agrees to slash Tampa streetcar budget
By TED JACKOVICS | The Tampa Tribune
Published: June 15, 2011

TAMPA --
Tampa Historic Streetcar Inc. board members agreed today to slash next year's operating budget by 29 percent or $608,000.

To achieve its proposed budget of $1.5 million, streetcar service Mondays through Thursdays will begin at noon rather than 11 a.m. On Fridays and Saturdays, the cars will run every 20 minutes instead of every 15.

Street car staff will be trimmed from 24 positions to 17. The positions will be eliminated either by attrition or reallocating employees to the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority.

The board is scheduled to vote on the budget at its September meeting.

The board also agreed to consider a $1.36 million operating budget for fiscal 2013, trimming 9.8 percent or $148,390 from the fiscal 2012 budget.

The budget reductions primarily are a result of the streetcar system exhausting a $5 million endowment established in 2006.

The money came from a Beneficial Corp. agreement with the city of Tampa to end its contract for service on a "People Mover" between Harbour Island and downtown.

Streetcar ridership from October through May is down 8.3 percent to 265,148.

Officials of HART, which operates the streetcar, attributed the decline in ridership to fewer events in Ybor City, Channelside and the St. Pete Times Forum.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2011/jun/15/1/board-agrees-to-slash-tampa-streetcar-budget-ar-237616/

It seems like Tampas streetcar line is much like our own skyway.  It starts downtown and basially ends downtown (correct me if I'm wrong).  I think this shows that the streetcar needs to start off in one of the core neighborhoods and do into town.  I'd like to see the line start in avondale and be built all the way in to at least the berkman to start.

I am glad I am not one of the businesses who invested in the area with streetcar as one of the factors.  Government is so funny we need more riders let's cut the hours.

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 16, 2011, 07:32:12 AM
Government is so funny we need more riders let's cut the hours.

there's always a trade-off in meeting budgets...and for transit, this is often the case...right now systems all over the country are having their budgets trimmed as gas prices and passenger demand rises.

Note...in this case, the streetcar is operated by the local transit agency under an agreement with a non-profit board.....so it isn't really a "government thing".

Quote from: acme54321 on June 16, 2011, 07:09:13 AM
It seems like Tampas streetcar line is much like our own skyway.  It starts downtown and basially ends downtown (correct me if I'm wrong).  I think this shows that the streetcar needs to start off in one of the core neighborhoods and do into town.  I'd like to see the line start in avondale and be built all the way in to at least the berkman to start.

Tampa's streetcar is exactly the opposite of our skyway.  It starts a mile away from downtown in Ybor City, runs through the Channel District and terminates at the convention center, which is a good four block walk through surface parking lots from the south section of downtown Tampa (where the actual building fabric exists).  Earlier this year, they extended the line north four blocks but it still does not truly penetrate downtown Tampa.  Here's a map.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1133405227_y57VV-M.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on June 16, 2011, 09:06:58 AM

Quote from: acme54321 on June 16, 2011, 07:09:13 AM
It seems like Tampas streetcar line is much like our own skyway.  It starts downtown and basially ends downtown (correct me if I'm wrong).  I think this shows that the streetcar needs to start off in one of the core neighborhoods and do into town.  I'd like to see the line start in avondale and be built all the way in to at least the berkman to start.

Tampa's streetcar is exactly the opposite of our skyway.  It starts a mile away from downtown in Ybor City, runs through the Channel District and terminates at the convention center, which is a good four block walk through surface parking lots from the south section of downtown Tampa (where the actual building fabric exists).  Earlier this year, they extended the line north four blocks but it still does not truly penetrate downtown Tampa.  Here's a map.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1133405227_y57VV-M.jpg)

A) I noticed that it says Phase IIa.  Is there a Phase IIb in the works at all that we know of?  I wonder if they shouldn't try to extend it to at least the Performing Arts Center through the downtown core.

B) Am I right that it appears that there is practically no resdiential area served by this?  Ybor is more of a destination than anything, IIRC, and then it goes past more 'stuff to do' and one hotel before dead-ending in the middle of seemingly nowhere near downtown.

A). There is a plan to eventually loop the streetcar through downtown and Tampa Heights to connect back with Ybor on the north end.  However, there is no funding or timeline for this to happen (sort of like Jax's plan to extend the skyway down Riverside Ave or to the stadium).

B). Tampa's streetcar is basically a tourist circulator.  It does not serve that everyday downtown commuter or urban core resident.  The only residential along the line is in the form of Transit Oriented & Adjacent Development (TOD and TAD) that has popped up paralleling the streetcar.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 16, 2011, 11:21:44 AM
B). Tampa's streetcar is basically a tourist circulator.  It does not serve that everyday downtown commuter or urban core resident.  The only residential along the line is in the form of Transit Oriented & Adjacent Development (TOD and TAD) that has popped up paralleling the streetcar.

Would that be along Channelside?

There's mixed-use residential TOD in the Channel District and TAD in Ybor.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 16, 2011, 09:06:58 AM

Quote from: acme54321 on June 16, 2011, 07:09:13 AM
It seems like Tampas streetcar line is much like our own skyway.  It starts downtown and basially ends downtown (correct me if I'm wrong).  I think this shows that the streetcar needs to start off in one of the core neighborhoods and do into town.  I'd like to see the line start in avondale and be built all the way in to at least the berkman to start.

Tampa's streetcar is exactly the opposite of our skyway.  It starts a mile away from downtown in Ybor City, runs through the Channel District and terminates at the convention center, which is a good four block walk through surface parking lots from the south section of downtown Tampa (where the actual building fabric exists).  Earlier this year, they extended the line north four blocks but it still does not truly penetrate downtown Tampa.  Here's a map.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1133405227_y57VV-M.jpg)

Ok, I meant that it was similar to the skyway in that it does not start or end in a neighborhood where people live.  You are right it's to move tourists.  It goes from one entertainment destination to another, not from where a sizable amount of people actually live to the entertainment centers.

More trouble for Tampa's streetcar

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/port-authority-pulls-funding-for-downtown-tampa-trolley/1186253

QuoteNone liked the idea of using port-generated revenues for a service that has little, if anything, to do with the shipping business. But Mayor Bob Buckhorn and others argued the community can't let the trolley fail.

"Its endowment has been drained; it's been poorly run," he said. "But we've put tens of millions of dollars into it. I have to do everything I can to make it succeed. It serves the greater good."

If I'm the port, I'd cut giving a poorly operated and run service free money annual too, especially when it doesn't promote my core mission, which is to ship goods in and out of Tampa.  As for Jax, here is the lesson I'd take from Tampa's experience:

1. We have a poorly operated mass transit system (buses and skyway) that needs to be completely scaled down and revamped.  Consider letting the gas tax expire to force needed change, restructuring and public discourse.

2. For a streetcar O&M, cut your costs by providing "no-frills" service.  Btw, this should be done with BRT, the skyway and local buses as well.

3. For a streetcar's route, make sure you design a system (no matter how large or small) that appeals to all segments of society and a diversified ridership base.  Part of Tampa's struggles is that's basically a tourist train and unfortunately, Tampa isn't Disney.

4. For ridership purposes, run it as a transit spine.  If you're going to invest in fixed transit, why in the world would you not integrate it into your existing transit network and run it as a spine?  Just because its a streetcar doesn't mean it has to operate as a slow moving tourist circulator, forcing the continued operation of bus service in the same area.

5. Also, for O&M, consider volunteer service to cut costs.  Dallas seems to have a decent model in place worth studying.

Tampa streetcar is the perfect example of what "not" to do.

saw this editorial from Tampa today regarding their streetcar

http://www2.tbo.com/news/opinion/2011/aug/30/meopino1-stand-by-your-streetcar-ar-253847/

note this quote

QuoteSince 2003, the streetcar board has spent more than $3.5 million meeting the insurance requirements of railroad company CSX, it was pointed out in a recent meeting. The annual price of crossing a CSX track is almost as much as the total fares collected this year from 430,000 riders.

In addition to the river crossing issue, this is a major reason NOT to extend the planned Jax. streetcar to San Marco.

Hmm, a new project recently proposed a block away from Tampa's recent TECO Line streetcar extension....

(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/delmayberry/2007-PMC-CrystalRendering-Crop-NoSky.jpg)

QuoteTAMPA â€" An ambitious, multi-building development near the Tampa Convention Center .. has received preliminary rezoning approval from the Tampa City Council .. .

The project proposed by Bob Abberger, senior managing director of Trammell Crow Co .. ., includes a 450,000-square-foot office tower, a 350-room hotel and a 1,200-space parking garage.

If developed, the $188 million project would mean short-term construction jobs and more permanent employment ranging from high-income positions with companies attracted to a modern office building to service-sector jobs.

The project also would provide a critical link between the downtown core and the convention center and entertainment district at its southern edge, as well as the neighboring Center for Advanced Medical Learning and Simulation, or CAMLS, the University of South Florida .. project under construction and due to open in the spring.

The council approved rezoning Abberger’s 4.12-acre development site to allow construction of up to 400 feet high in an area currently limited to 120 feet.

“This is a big project, but it will put Tampa back in the path of development,” Abberger told the council Nov. 10. “This is the type of project corporate America wants to see.”

Broad support

The council approved the rezoning without asking any substantive questions. There also was no opposition to the rezoning from the public. One member of the carpenters’ union local spoke in favor of the project.

The council’s second vote on the rezoning is scheduled for Dec. 1.

In addition to increasing building height, the proposed rezoning allows Abberger to remove a grand tree from the site, eliminates an 8-foot vehicle buffer for valet parking and reduces the required number of loading berths to two from five.

Abberger said he is talking with potential hotel companies, which would determine most design requirements of that building.

He estimated the entire project would generate about 960 direct jobs in several phases and nearly 1,800 direct permanent jobs. Once complete, which could take four or five years, the project would pay more than $4 million in annual real estate taxes.

Local representatives of architecture firm HOK, design firm WilsonMiller Stantec, engineering firm Tindale-Oliver & Associates .. and law firm Squire Sanders .. are helping with the project.

Abberger serves on Mayor Bob Buckhorn’s Economic Competitiveness Committee, which is close to issuing its recommendations on how to streamline development regulations.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=85964933&postcount=200

Awesome infill project.  At least we have empowered our local developers to secure Wendy's at the outer beltway exits with our super Mobility Fee Moratorium.

Okay, so we agree that the only thing worse then JTA'S mass transit planning is Tampa's mass transit planning. Really with CUTR and the 'USF anti-anything-rail gang' nearby, should we really expect more from the bay area?

While the concept for the Jacksonville Traction line would carry residents and visitors alike it appears that Tampa is suffering atypical Florida tunnel vision syndrome.  We plan a tourist friendly mass transit spine, and they planned a mass transit shaped tourist tram. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb? In this case, provided we can keep the resident screw ups out of the game, I believe Jacksonville has this right.

So such a deal... We make Tampa an offer on the cars, lines, and poles, that they can't refuse... Say maybe a dollar? Pack the whole thing up and move it north to demonstrate how it should be done! It just might be that in spite of our shortcomings, we are far enough from CUTR to pull it off.

SMILE!

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteHART considers streetcar fares as low as 50 cents

Streetcar fares could drop to as low as 50 cents in a concept HART planners will study before next year's budget is finalized.

Worried that Teco Line Streetcar fares might be too high to sustain ridership, planners for the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority will look into the impact on the budget and ridership of different fares, from 50 cents up to the current $2.50.

The nonprofit streetcar HART operates carried 25,123 passengers in April compared with 41,116 in April 2003. HART planners have projected a loss of 80,000 streetcar passengers in fiscal 2013 to a total of 330,000.

Possible reasons ridership is in decline include streetcar fares 75 cents higher than the current bus fare, fewer downtown special events because of the recession and less frequent service necessitated by budget cuts.

In addition, the streetcar route between downtown and Ybor City is targeted more to visitors than residents, an issue exacerbated by the lack of connectivity with other downtown transit modes.

"We are pricing ourselves out of the market," HART chief executive Philip Hale said, without recommending a price. Streetcars fares in Memphis, Tenn., and Little Rock, Ark., for example, are $1.

Hale said he talks with tourists checking out the fare boards at streetcar stations who tell him they decided not ride because of the cost.

Rick Hamilton, director of the Tampa Convention Center and a streetcar board member, concurred, saying conference visitors don't want to ride short distances for $2.75.

The fiscal 2013 budget will be approved in September, following public hearings.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2012/may/17/hart-considers-streetcar-fares-as-low-as-50-cents-ar-404566/