TECO Line Streetcar

[DemocraticNole]

It's not all Hyde Park residents who are against the streetcar. There are many young professionals who live in the area (like myself) who would love the streetcar to come through the neighborhood and would definitely use. However, most of these folks don't have lots of money and don't vote. Most of the wealthy homeowners in the area do vote and are against it, with most using the MARTA excuse as I mentioned before. The clout of these folks is the same reason they are basically ruining the Gasparilla parade because of all of the crack downs on things like open containers and what not.

I think the key in getting the streetcar across the river is selecting the right route. By using the Cass Street Bridge, it accomplishes several things. First, it takes the streetcar through downtown and connects it with important sites like the new waterfront park, art museum, and performing arts center. Second, the Cass Street Bridge goes right by UT and in to a neighborhood that was starting to gentrify prior to the economic collapse. I am pretty sure that the street had a streetcar back in the day because it is a wide thoroughfare even though it is two lane. There is limited traffic on Cass, which means the streetcar would not disrupt traffic flow. Vintage Lofts is also a huge new and nice apartment complex a block from Cass that would serve the line well. Third, you take the line over to Armenia and then south, but not south of Swann. This would allow it to serve the Publix Greenwise market, several apartment complexes, and most of the SoHo bars without getting it close enough to all of the wealthy homes that wouldn't want it.

[I-10east]

Whoa, I ruffled some feathers. I'm not gonna pretend that I know alot about transit infrastructure, that's why I said I did only a lil' research on TOD LOL. I know where yall stand on wanting streetcar in Jax. I promised not to even partake in "streetcar threads" but only did so because Lake made this interesting thread about TECO a concerning streetcar system with only 800 riders; Apparently no one has any concerns with TECO, and everything is all good down there. As a Jax resident, something is telling me "slow down a lil" when it comes to suddenly bringing in streetcar when Tampa "the Cosmo version of Jax" is struggling with it's ridership.

[Ocklawaha]

Also, buses don't disappear.  They are used to improve service along less traveled routes and serve as feeder lines for areas not adjacent to the major transit spine.  In the end, the goal is to develop a more efficient transportation network.  Not only in terms of usability but also cost effective financial utilization.

So to put it in Jax-relevant terms (and not to hijack the thread):

Utilize the existing rail 'spines' up Philips and run 'express' buses down Atlantic, Beach, JTB, and Baymeadows, and up Southside to tie into them?  

Same for US-17 in O.P./West Side with buses down Wells, Kingsley, Blanding, and out 103rd?

Or is all that just grossly over-simplified?

By Job you've got it!  Basically you've got your mainlines and you've got your collector/distributor routes. The very heavy mainlines (Roosevelt - Philips - etc) get handed off to COMMUTER RAIL.  Where there is no current rail you convert those heavy routes (Arlington Expressway-JTB-Beach-Blanding) over to a combination of BUS RAPID TRANSIT or LIGHT RAIL. Then the remaining light density areas and areas of town that have no current service can use the surplus buses ( bumped off their routes by the new system ) to greatly increase their mobility and accessibility.  Where you have heavy urban density but not necessarily main arterial roads streetcars can serve as both transit and as a development tool.  

Sure it will work, it works all over the world.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I-10, my feathers aren't ruffled.  I just like to take advantage of posts to sell the concept.  Regarding the TECO Line, I stated in the article that although it has successfully stimulated TOD, it fails in terms of being a viable transit option for local residents and that this is the challenge Tampa will have to overcome going forward.  So what all of this tells me is not to slow down.  Instead, when applied to Jacksonville's setting, take advantage of the successful methods implemented with the TECO line (affordable construction, TOD stimulation, etc.) and avoid the line's pitfalls (poor route planning, operations, etc.).  In the end, no hard feelings.  I don't get upset about anything said online.

[I-10east]

I wasn't upset, no hard feelings Lake.

[I-10east]

^^^LOL

[tufsu1]

The Tampa route was designed for 2 purposes:

1. Revitalize the Channel District
2. Provide connection from Convention Center area to Ybor entertainment district

It has done both very well

Maybe so TU, but the fact that they missed the citizens makes it no more useful than a tourist attraction.

sure, its mainly a tourist attraction....but there are a good number of residents (citizens) who live in Channelside and Ybor City...with a bunch more living a short walk away on the northern edge of Harbor Island.

Again, the line is only 2.4 miles long...realistically it should be extended north through downton and into Tampa Heights...and west into the Hyde Park and SoHo areas.

btw...having lived in south Tampa, I rarely heard that Hyde Park people were opposed to the streetcar..even the wealthy ones.

[Ocklawaha]

Whoa, I ruffled some feathers. I'm not gonna pretend that I know alot about transit infrastructure, that's why I said I did only a lil' research on TOD LOL. I know where yall stand on wanting streetcar in Jax. I promised not to even partake in "streetcar threads" but only did so because Lake made this interesting thread about TECO a concerning streetcar system with only 800 riders; Apparently no one has any concerns with TECO, and everything is all good down there. As a Jax resident, something is telling me "slow down a lil" when it comes to suddenly bringing in streetcar when Tampa "the Cosmo version of Jax" is struggling with it's ridership.

Nothing ruffled here, just my usual, take no prisoners, "Doctor House," sarcasm...LOL.  

Working within the industry (and I can tell you a least a half dozen of us, from site owners to member-contributors are Urban Planners-Transit Planners-Railroad Professionals) what we are trying to get across to the City of Jacksonville and it's citizens is it is not so much about ridership as it is job creation, and development of a much larger and healthier tax revenue base. Any tax revenue that is generated by new downtown development is tax revenue that people in Murray Hill, Lakeshore, Cedar Hills, Englewood... WON'T HAVE TO PAY.

So in the end we get many new jobs, many new community improvements, new attractions, new shopping, and even some new housing (we're talking bare area's like LaVilla or Brooklyn) and we don't foot the bill for it. THAT is why it is WIN-WIN... and if we can design it so unlike Tampa, more people are attracted to it... then hey, we win again.

I will tell you that in all 80+ cities, Tampa is the only one I can think of who's ridership hasn't blown away expectations. People love streetcars, and they ride them if they can be given any sort of reason to do so. Back in the day... and returning today is something called "streetcar daycare," where young people fill the cars on Saturdays and Sundays just for the ride. The script for the famous 1944 movie, meet me in St. Louis (reference to the 1904 St Louis Worlds Fair) tells the story:

~Judy~
With my high-starched collar, and my high-topped shoes
And my hair piled high upon my head
I went to lose a jolly hour on the Trolley and lost my heart instead.

A good part of the reason for posting this is that Tampa has failed in ridership where more then 80 others have succeeded, WHY? It sure as hell isn't because they are in Florida, since it works everywhere, it sure should work here. I think the error is not unlike our Skyway, it runs from "tourism to tourism" without passing through "population." At least the Skyway runs from Bus to Commercial, so it does twice as well... mile for mile the busiest transit route in Jacksonville. At roughly 1400 people per-mile-per-day, imagine if the Skyway system was 10 miles long... Would we still be complaining if it was carrying 14,000 a day?

OCKLAWAHA

[Doctor_K]

By Job you've got it!  Basically you've got your mainlines and you've got your collector/distributor routes. The very heavy mainlines (Roosevelt - Philips - etc) get handed off to COMMUTER RAIL.  Where there is no current rail you convert those heavy routes (Arlington Expressway-JTB-Beach-Blanding) over to a combination of BUS RAPID TRANSIT or LIGHT RAIL. Then the remaining light density areas and areas of town that have no current service can use the surplus buses ( bumped off their routes by the new system ) to greatly increase their mobility and accessibility.  Where you have heavy urban density but not necessarily main arterial roads streetcars can serve as both transit and as a development tool.  

Sure it will work, it works all over the world.


OCKLAWAHA

Except here, where the leadership has its collective head up some nether-region or another?  Or at least, where politics overrides common sense?

[dougskiles]

We were in Tampa at the convention center Saturday night.  I had a few hours to spare with the boys and noticed the streetcar.  So for $12.50 we bought a family day pass and took a round trip.  It was fun.  Because of the $2.50 one way adult trip fare, I can see that this is definitely a tourist attraction more than a way for locals to commute.





Notice in the last photo (on the right) that they also have the "trolley' PCTs.  We skipped those.

[thelakelander]

lol, most do. Unfortunately, both their PCT and streetcars operate with weird schedules.

[tufsu1]

the main purpose of the trolleys is to carry office workers through downtown...the streetcar's principal purpose (right now) is carrying conventioneers and other visitors between the Channelside area and Ybor City

[ChriswUfGator]

Oh that Tampa convention center still gives me hives at the sight of it (bar exam).

[dougskiles]

Oh that Tampa convention center still gives me hives at the sight of it (bar exam).

And we all know how much you love convention centers...

[iMarvin]

I enjoyed Tampa the last time I went. Can't remember where we stayed but we went downtown to the riverwalk and it was so nice. It's a lil better than Jacksonville's. More activity and foliage. They also have some other type of trolley that operates during the day and night. Two different tracks though. Their downtown seemed extremely small though, just a few skyscrapers and that's it... maybe it was just me.