The Park View Pavilion Coming Soon
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453844753_GcncQ-M.jpg)
The redevelopment of a decade old eyesore at the intersection of State and Main Streets promises to transform the gateway to Springfield.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-dec-the-park-view-pavilion-coming-soon
Interesting, and someone in Jax was trying to tell me that absolutely nothing was going on right now. I told him that it's the little things are happening (too bad the Morgan Stanleys of the world aren't looking at Jax even though they are investing in smaller markets and in smaller properties nowadays). Does anyone know about the specific financing of this development? Are there tenants signed on? Is the financing secured? I guess it's not necessarily approved and it looks extremely tentative, but is it financially feasible and market supportable?
Congratulations. What a benefit.
A perfect solution.
absolutely fantastic to hear!
Quote from: simms3 on December 06, 2010, 03:28:05 AM
Interesting, and someone in Jax was trying to tell me that absolutely nothing was going on right now. I told him that it's the little things are happening (too bad the Morgan Stanleys of the world aren't looking at Jax even though they are investing in smaller markets and in smaller properties nowadays). Does anyone know about the specific financing of this development? Are there tenants signed on? Is the financing secured? I guess it's not necessarily approved and it looks extremely tentative, but is it financially feasible and market supportable?
I have heard that the city is providing significant matching grant funds for this project, which will get them started on the demolition and stabilization of the parking garage. I'm hopeful but not yet thrilled by what I've seen so far - lots of work to be done here.
This would be great for that area. And with that new urban gas station slated for the area as well, it will definately give that part of DT a fresh look! Very good news!
The Gateway to Springfield (cue epic movie music here)
Springfield!
Springfield!
Springfield!
-Josh
Do they have a start date yet?
Ill believe it when I see it. Its good location for both Northbank & Springfield, time will tell, but I have doubts.
i hope something nice does come to this corner. As the entrance and transition from DT to Springfield it needs to be a showcase!
I just added some recently released graphics to the article:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1116668785_otH3E-M.jpg)
The new images look great. My only complaint is that I wish on the first floor of the garage on the side fronting main that they would turn it into retail rather than leave that blank facade and parking. It's only 20 spaces, and it would add much more to the development.
This is a vast improvement over the current state of those two blocks. If the whole project gets built, it will be a huge boost for the area.
Where'd this come from? That good duke!
I'll get excited when they start digging some dirt, until then we know Jax!
I am strongly in favor of small scale, restoration projects such as this and the Laura street trio. It may take while to break ground, but atleast it will happen. Weve had enough of the pie in the sky dream projects such as the St John, The Shipyards, etc. It is time to think logical.
A residential component along the park is ideal. These plans certainly seem reasonable and the ability to phase as they are proposing should help immensely given the current economy. IMO, a retail element in the garage should be able to be incorporated along Main and Orange. Would make for a nice phase III.
QuoteI have heard that the city is providing significant matching grant funds for this project, which will get them started on the demolition and stabilization of the parking garage. I'm hopeful but not yet thrilled by what I've seen so far - lots of work to be done here.
Its the community development block grant, the city administers allocating their federal portion. If Im not mistaken, 900k has been allocated to the Park View project.
http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/communitydevelopment/programs/ (http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/communitydevelopment/programs/)
Ironically, the same grant program was also used for The Landing when it was first built.
When I get home tonight Ill post some pictures, but this type of development will be similar in structure as Urbana at Jax Beach.
(http://www.theurbana.com/images/SitePlan1.jpg)
(http://www.theurbana.com/images/BannerFinal2.jpg)
I hope this happens soon. But, I can't help but see a problem with retail space. So many empty storefronts downtown. How can we expect bring in more retail when we can't fill the retail spaces we have now. I think MJ should travel to some "real cities" to see what kind of retail works in those cities.
Quote from: urbaknight on December 06, 2010, 12:54:16 PM
I hope this happens soon. But, I can't help but see a problem with retail space. So many empty storefronts downtown. How can we expect bring in more retail when we can't fill the retail spaces we have now.
This was my thought as well. What's supposed to open there? Do they have any firm commitments from retailers?
Although we definitely enjoy visiting other communities, MJ has done enough traveling (see http://www.metrojacksonville.com/learning-from/).
From my experience in the architectural design industry, there are different types of retail that require different space and location specifications. Considering it's location at a signalized intersection and the ability to place a 10,000 square foot box on that site, the Park View would be an ideal site for a pharmacy like Walgreens or CVS to serve as an anchor.
Even though the majority of the Northbank's retail spaces are empty, very few (if any) come with these five requirements (+10,000sf box, signalized intersection, high traffic count, high visibility, on-site dedicated parking).
It will be interesting to see how fast this spot fills up compared to some of the newer retail spaces spread throughout downtown. My gut feeling tells me that State & Union are better for major retail than corridors like Bay and Forsyth.
The parking will give it a great advantage.
im glad they at least attempted to shield the blight of the surface parking lot with that seemingly pointless wall. maybe they can squeeze a small store front there.
Eww ewww eww! If the proposal for the businesses in Park View still stand, Dick's Sport and Wings place shouldn't go there.
I can assure you that the owner of that location is going ot burn into the red, then go out of business within 2 years. Dick's Wings can't keep the consistency of their business.
-Josh
I'll take anything at this point.
Just fricken do it already.
Gheesh.
I don't think the Dicks Wings in the beach development above ever opened. And the Beale Street place already closed.
Quote from: hightowerlover on December 06, 2010, 01:21:28 PM
im glad they at least attempted to shield the blight of the surface parking lot with that seemingly pointless wall. maybe they can squeeze a small store front there.
Even if they can't get a store in there, they could line that wall with display windows that highlight what retail and entertainment uses are located within the complex. Other options could include a visual display of the history of that site or a bus stop/shelter location.
Quote from: iloveionia on December 06, 2010, 02:28:35 PM
I'll take anything at this point.
Just fricken do it already.
Gheesh.
what she said!
I think "coming soon" might be far too optimistic a title. As a former Humanities major I'd hate to suggest something as 'wordy' as "possibly coming in the future."
It seems like a lot has to happen for this to materialize, but I do agree with the sentiments that State and Union have the prospect to be a major retail corridor in our area. As I turn my head to look out the window I can see the Matthews Bridge and a seemingly endless line of cars that use State and Union to get accross town.
This corridor has already been used to support major chains like a Burger King, Winn Dixie, and Shell. I'm not sure a pharmacy is the right anchor for two reasons. First, there's a pharmacy in Springfield already by McDonalds. Second, with the presence of shelters and vagrants in the area I'm not sure a place selling pharmaceuticals would be safe. I can imagine people being hassled at night for their pills, snacks, and drinks.
It is definately a step in the right direction, but it's going to take a giant step to get it done. But, I don't think the impression should be that this is a "done deal" and will be opening soon.
the walgreens by mcdonald's is, though geographically close, a different world then state and union. i'd be more concerned about the small pharmacy on 8th between market and hubbard. if, on the other hand, you're thinking more ov the knickknacks and overpriced grocery section ov a walgreens-style pharmacy, i can't think ov any reason why state/union wouldn't be a lovely place for it.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on December 06, 2010, 04:53:06 PM
the walgreens by mcdonald's is, though geographically close, a different world then state and union. i'd be more concerned about the small pharmacy on 8th between market and hubbard. if, on the other hand, you're thinking more ov the knickknacks and overpriced grocery section ov a walgreens-style pharmacy, i can't think ov any reason why state/union wouldn't be a lovely place for it.
I watch all the people who drive down those streets on the way to work each morning, and I can't help but think if they wouldn't flock in mass hysteria if a Dunkin' Donuts opened there.
Take a drive down Baymeadows and count the number of Walgreens and CVS stores between Philips and 9A. There are at least four not including the grocery stores in the same shopping centers. 8th & I-95 is far enough away for a CVS or Walgreens to cater to the downtown area. Nevertheless, a Dunkin' Donuts would be pretty popular and they did look into the possibility of opening a store on Main a few years back.
Dunkin' Donuts are orgasmic.
Bring it on!!!
Hmmm......well as others have said, I'll believe it when I see it......especially in this economy....
Quote from: iloveionia on December 06, 2010, 05:16:44 PM
Dunkin' Donuts are orgasmic.
Bring it on!!!
Someone should contact the local Dunkin' Donuts franchise owners (not the gas station ones, but the stand alone ones like south of San Marco) and bring them a rendering of this property with a DD featured instead of Walgreens. Anyone who stands on the street for 5 minutes and sees all the cars heading on and off the Matthews Bridge on the way to work will see dollar signs surrounding coffee and "on the run" treats.
They might bite, get in bed with the developer, and make this thing much easier to have "come soon." There's money here.
Not to pick an argument, Lake, but with the shelters and the other situation in the area, I just don't know if we want to put pills there.
Quote from: iloveionia on December 06, 2010, 05:16:44 PM
Dunkin' Donuts are orgasmic.
Bring it on!!!
i'll see your dunkin' donuts and raise you a krispy kreme.
I think the concerns about a Walgreens seem a little paranoid. Walgreens is in other high transient/crime neighborhoods and of all the drugstore chains, I think better understand the challenges. It's proximity to the Rosa Parks station would really make the sometimes hour wait a bit more bearable. And not to mention the FSCJ students! That area would be perfect for a store that offers so many convenience items, and other than 7-11, I can't think of any other stores with that level of selection. Toss in a coffee station (which Walgreens uses in other urban stores) and I think we have a hit.
Singejoufflue you are right, the nearest Pharmacy is the ABC/Walgreen's at Shands..No?..folks have to pay to get from Rosa Parks to Shands?
Lakelander,thanks for the article! and all who contributed. Thursday (Dec 2nd)...I was looking at the Park View with Binoculars while Refueling at the Shell,..
wondering just what in the Hell they were doing by exposing all the rooms (and Graffiti for all to see)
This clears things up and should be interesting for ALL of us to watch..a Surgical Demolition as we turn onto Main..(or those of us that sneak around back by Claude ;D)
Does anyone on the forum have a time lapse camera so we can see the Demo speeded up? ;)
Is there a pharmacy at the Winn Dixie to the east (Union?)
QuoteThis corridor has already been used to support major chains like a Burger King, Winn Dixie, and Shell. I'm not sure a pharmacy is the right anchor for two reasons. First, there's a pharmacy in Springfield already by McDonalds. Second, with the presence of shelters and vagrants in the area I'm not sure a place selling pharmaceuticals would be safe. I can imagine people being hassled at night for their pills, snacks, and drinks.
You wouldn't be good in the commercial real estate world with that kind of vision. This corner screams Walgreens/CVS/Rite Aid. It has the population(living in DT/Springfield, and more importantly the working population), footprint(albeit smaller than ideal-roughly about 9k sq ft of useable sq ft for a drug store floorplan versus the 13-14k sq ft they typically like for Jacksonville-but definately a workable footprint they have floor plans for in similar urban areas), and MOST importantly the
traffic count... especially when broken down by peak time traffic intervals.
A standalone DD wouldnt be the most efficient use of space. In that respect, a co-branded DD/Krispy Kreme drive thru or
more likely an instore-kiosk would fit perfectly in with the gas station going up at Union/Main.
QuoteI don't think the Dicks Wings in the beach development above ever opened. And the Beale Street place already closed.
Dicks will be opening... its a slow work in progress. Considering who owns this particular franchise, that isn't suprising. Nevertheless work is slowly crawling along for the Dick's space and should be open around St Patricks Day(which typically signals the start of the busy season for restaurants).
Shoot, now my photoshop is crapping out so Im not able to resize and post the pictures I have of Urbana.
Quote from: billy on December 06, 2010, 08:54:03 PM
Is there a pharmacy at the Winn Dixie to the east (Union?)
yes
Why does everyone keep saying" I'll believe when I see it in this economy". This is a small scale project that will roll in phases. It is not multi-million construction project. I believe in "this economy" restoration projects are the way to go. It may take longer than normal to secure all the financing, but the few projects we have in the works (including Laura street) will come through.
My guess is because most announced downtown projects failed to materialize. Nevertheless, a drive through suburban Jacksonville indicates that fast food/quick serve restaurants and national pharmacies are still building. If they get that garage up, clean up the site and create a development pad at the corner of Main & State for 16,000 square feet of retail, I believe it will get developed before anything else in downtown, given the high traffic count at that intersection.
QuotePark View Inn owners ready to demolish old Jacksonville hotel
By David Bauerlein
The owners of the vacant Park View Inn in downtown Jacksonville plan to start demolition in January and have a parking garage open for business by the middle of 2011.
The fate of the Park View Inn was the topic of a Monday night community meeting hosted by the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council.
The council is anxious for demolition crews to appear at the hotel, at the corner of Main and State streets, a gateway into the Springfield neighborhood. It has been empty since 2000.
"There will be lots of cheering when that occurs," said Brenda Boydston, executive director of SPAR.
Robert Van Winkel, one of the owners of the old hotel property, said the group is set to seek demolition bids this week and award a contract in early January. Demolition activity would start later in the month.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-12-07/story/park-view-inn-owners-ready-demolish-old-jacksonville-hotel
I actually kind of like how they have the main Claude Nolan building restored to art deco styling, and the adjoining garage or whatever to its original design. There isn't much of that around here, and I'm sure it's more cost effective than restoring the original facade to the building.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 07, 2010, 06:15:26 AM
My gut feeling tells me that State & Union are better for major retail than corridors like Bay and Forsyth.
Imagine the stores of SJTC stretching along those two streets from Market to Broad!
Quote from: finehoe on December 07, 2010, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 07, 2010, 06:15:26 AM
My gut feeling tells me that State & Union are better for major retail than corridors like Bay and Forsyth.
Imagine the stores of SJTC stretching along those two streets from Market to Broad!
Those two streets are too significant of thoroughfare's to be reduced to one long strip mall. Not to mention the twin compounds of FBCJ and FSCJ might want to stay put.
Let's talk about a department store like Macy's in the old Library. Converting the sad little building between Rosa Parks and CRM to a coffee shop. There is a lot of Downtown to fill and address, and thoughtful, yet bold visions peppered throughout downtown will encourage prosperity more than a lone shopper's alley.
I hate to break the bad news but Macy's, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. won't be coming downtown or to State & Union anytime soon. With the toxic bubble hovering over the area, DT should be happy to land a Family Dollar or McDonalds. Also, there's also no reason to reduce the lanes on those streets. Most cities have streets just as busy and pedestrians still cross without getting hit. While it is a hostile environment for the pedestrian, the real issue with State & Union is there is no reason to cross on foot. With that said, while State & Union won't become a SJTC, it does have the potential to become a decent urban retail corridor. Miami's Biscayne Blvd, between I-195 and I-395 is a good example of a previously suburban arterial being transformed into a walkable district. Here are a few images:
These images were taken on Thanksgiving morning around 7:15am, a few miles north of DT Miami, so traffic was light at the time. The five lane highway (US 1) is currently being streetscaped. Most of the development in these images was constructed during the recent real estate boom.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Nov-2010/P1430114/1104873568_3ciJV-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Nov-2010/P1430115/1104873698_T8pH3-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Nov-2010/P1430116/1104873856_XGXJB-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Nov-2010/P1430120/1104874372_u6Mds-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Nov-2010/P1430122/1104874489_FzSjm-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Nov-2010/P1430123/1104874619_mXriC-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Nov-2010/P1430125/1104874733_wzLka-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Nov-2010/P1430134/1104875552_tn7jn-M.jpg)
While the projects in these images are lot denser than Jacksonville would allow, they do illustrate how the atmosphere of a heavily traveled suburban highway can change when walkable development replaces auto centric development. The same can happen with State & Union with a change in land use and zoning regulations.
You won't get a Macy's, but given the trade area's population and State & Union's high traffic count, retail like this could be possible.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Design-District/P1430022/1104851572_gM4D4-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Design-District/P1430023/1104851690_iTKPG-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Design-District/P1430024/1104851830_s9dvA-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Design-District/P1430025/1104851962_XThAn-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Design-District/P1430029/1104852180_FB8L2-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Design-District/P1430052/1104853441_rnLY9-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Design-District/P1430058/1104854035_3uPpp-M.jpg)
The images above are a part of the Midtown Miami development, which is adjacent to the Biscayne Blvd corridor (photos in previous post) near I-195. This was a former FEC railyard and brownfield. Chain stores on busy Jacksonville streets with urban layouts like this aren't possible in Jax without applying for a PUD.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 07, 2010, 08:16:48 PM
I hate to break the bad news but Macy's, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. won't be coming downtown or to State & Union anytime soon. With the toxic bubble hovering over the area, DT should be happy to land a Family Dollar or McDonalds
.
I was a bit alarmed by reading this on myspringfield.org
Quote
- It was very clear that the community would have, in essense, veto power over anything that gets put there. Gaffney said as much.
http://www.myspringfield.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=941
I certainly hope Gaffney didn't say anything of this sort. I wasn't present, so I don't know.
It is important for everyone to have reasonable expectations. Gaffney should not set unreasonable expectations in the minds of Springfield residents. We aren't holding any great cards in this poker game. We need to be grateful for whatever shows interest believing that the future holds hope with baby steps today.
Admittedly, Macy's is my own personal dream, and I just want to dream a little longer...I would actually love Love LOVE a downtown Target. It's one stop shopping minus fresh meats and veggies!
Most of the development you highlighted is new, mixed use, correct? I think any new construction should be similar, and not these mega-towers currently standing idle. Clearly I'm no urban planner, but wouldn't it make sense to spread out some of the larger redevelopment (target, walgreens, dollar tree) among the entire core area? Maybe 3-4 blocks between "major" retailers and let the gaps be filled in more slowly with smaller scale businesses? And what about the existing business (Warren Motors still going strong!) along those streets and, again, the FBCJ and FSCJ compounds? They take up a significant portion of those two streets...(and poorly, I might add).
As a side note...has anyone (MJ, COJ, DVI, etc) drafted a "plan" for DT? I mean, identifying the core commercial/high rise district, the mixed residential/commercial/retail district, the entertainment district, etc?
QuoteAs a side note...has anyone (MJ, COJ, DVI, etc) drafted a "plan" for DT? I mean, identifying the core commercial/high rise district, the mixed residential/commercial/retail district, the entertainment district, etc?
There are about 5 major studies/plans currently floating around. I'm quite convinced the leaders of our city don't read them or use them for any kind of referance.
The neighborhood may want a Whole Foods but if CVS or Walgreens comes with money to put up a store, get ready for a pharmacy.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on December 07, 2010, 09:38:38 PM
Most of the development you highlighted is new, mixed use, correct? I think any new construction should be similar, and not these mega-towers currently standing idle. Clearly I'm no urban planner, but wouldn't it make sense to spread out some of the larger redevelopment (target, walgreens, dollar tree) among the entire core area?
Jax won't have to worry about the type of dense development that happens in Miami. We have no market for that type of stuff. However, as shown by the designs of the Park View Pavilion and gas station across the street, we can convert this area into a walkable commercial district through well planned pedestrian friendly building placement. The easiest way to do it, is to modify the zoning regulations that prohibit it from happening.
QuoteMaybe 3-4 blocks between "major" retailers and let the gaps be filled in more slowly with smaller scale businesses?
My suggestion would be to modify zoning and land use to allow more creativity to take place, while eliminating the possibility of new auto centric development taking place along the corridor. At that point, let the market take care of itself.
QuoteAnd what about the existing business (Warren Motors still going strong!) along those streets and, again, the FBCJ and FSCJ compounds? They take up a significant portion of those two streets...(and poorly, I might add).
There's no reason they can't stay and become a part of an improved corridor. For example, FSCJ has plans to expand that campus over the surface lots along Laura Street. With proper coordination, perhaps new educational buildings can designed to be walkable with common student union type uses (bookstore, restaurants, copy center, etc.) designed as street level storefront spaces along State & Laura.
QuoteAs a side note...has anyone (MJ, COJ, DVI, etc) drafted a "plan" for DT? I mean, identifying the core commercial/high rise district, the mixed residential/commercial/retail district, the entertainment district, etc?
MJ has not drafted a "plan" for DT. As a group, we believe in eliminating the toxic public policies that cloud downtown, eliminating auto centric building/site design from taking place and letting the free market take control.
No offense....It looks like a wonderful plan, I love the renderings and I certainly hope it does come to pass, however I will believe it when I see it. In its current state, the Park View Inn is , at best, a death trap, so it is long past time for something to happen with it.
I still say pipe dream, That dumps has been there for years. Why now? I have my doubts, I see this idea somehow getting abandon.
I would be happy with a McDonalds downtown! now a CVS or Walgreens would be icing on the cake!
Once parking is available, and a few new stores/restaurants/pharmacy are built hopefully that should jump start new business in that whole section of downtown.
I think if this and the gas station happen it will really help with people's perception of downtown. Tons of people use that corridor to cut through from the west/northsides over to arlington and very actually go into downtown. If your perception of downtown is that stretch in it's current state you probably wouldn't have any inclination to stop or explore DT more.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 07, 2010, 08:16:48 PM
I hate to break the bad news but Macy's, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. won't be coming downtown or to State & Union anytime soon.
that's not necessarily bad news. if this ever becomes the kind ov neighbourhood where that kind ov store can do well, i'll need to get the hell out. that kind ov glorified consumerism is the worst thing that can happen to
any neighbourhood.
So anything that's slightly upscale isn't what you would like to see? Then I suppose that Three Layers, Sweet Petes and Uptown Market are just as bad, in your eyes. ::)
well, i haven't been caught in any ov them yet. ov course, for the first two, that's as much because i don't like coffee or candy as anything else--but it's better for my image if i dislike them for what they represent, rather than for what they serve. ;)
...seriously, though, i don't have anything against actual local businesses like those three...but huge corporations getting money from people based more on their well-known names than anything else is a little different--that's sending lots ov money far away from here for no good reason.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on December 08, 2010, 04:11:48 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 07, 2010, 08:16:48 PM
I hate to break the bad news but Macy's, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. won't be coming downtown or to State & Union anytime soon.
that's not necessarily bad news. if this ever becomes the kind ov neighbourhood where that kind ov store can do well, i'll need to get the hell out. that kind ov glorified consumerism is the worst thing that can happen to any neighbourhood.
Nice
I think the space will need a major national chain as an anchor. That easily recognized name will be what gets the traffic to stop in and shop not only the major chain, but the small businesses that are around it. It seems like that is how it works everywhere.
The funky old garage along the creek would make for a world class streetcar barn/museum but the location is not as good for tourism as the Sax Seafood location which would be much closer to the FREEway. Do the developers realize that such a venue would likely bring in a cool 500,000 visitors a year. Thats about 6.5 Superbowl's EVERY YEAR.
They have my card if their online and want more give me a call.
OCKLAWAHA
A pharmacy like cvs or Walgreen's would be perfect for downtown. But maybe something like a payless shoestore and/or a tj max. Basic necessities like that, so people in that community don't have to venture too far like to gateway. They could just walk for the most part.
A Target, Marshalls or TJMaxx would be perfect - it would draw people from Springfield, San Marco and St. Nicholas, Riverside and Avondale who might not otherwise shop downtown.
I also thing a Walgreens or CVS would be a good choice.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on December 08, 2010, 04:11:48 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 07, 2010, 08:16:48 PM
I hate to break the bad news but Macy's, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. won't be coming downtown or to State & Union anytime soon.
that's not necessarily bad news. if this ever becomes the kind ov neighbourhood where that kind ov store can do well, i'll need to get the hell out. that kind ov glorified consumerism is the worst thing that can happen to any neighbourhood.
If that kind of development comes to Downtown, we will be seeing a much more revived Downtown than we currently experience. Because I remember a much more vibrant downtown during my childhood years, would I ,with open arms , welcome such businesses .
I just drove by last Thursday and thought this would be a perfect renovation for FSCJ Dormitories.
I'm thrilled that there's even a proposal to turn this into something nice, not to mention walkable.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on December 08, 2010, 04:45:44 PM
well, i haven't been caught in any ov them yet. ov course, for the first two, that's as much because i don't like coffee or candy as anything else--but it's better for my image if i dislike them for what they represent, rather than for what they serve. ;)
...seriously, though, i don't have anything against actual local businesses like those three...but huge corporations getting money from people based more on their well-known names than anything else is a little different--that's sending lots ov money far away from here for no good reason.
I see & like your point.
Quote from: urbaknight on December 06, 2010, 12:54:16 PM
I hope this happens soon. But, I can't help but see a problem with retail space. So many empty storefronts downtown. How can we expect bring in more retail when we can't fill the retail spaces we have now. I think MJ should travel to some "real cities" to see what kind of retail works in those cities.
I feel this way about business leaders & civic leadership in Jax, I dont feel they are as well traveled as they should be. They have to vist the big dawg cities, be humbled & re generate imagination.
Pipe dreams.
You are all living in a pipe dream.
I'll believe it all when I see it.
Here's to hoping though!
We are not all living in a pipe dream. Reality sank in for some of us :)
Quote from: iloveionia on December 08, 2010, 09:09:10 PM
Pipe dreams.
You are all living in a pipe dream.
I'll believe it all when I see it.
Here's to hoping though!
Oh my, it's all in your perception of reality...
Like Buddha at the sermon where he didn't say a word - If you think you heard a flower - it's a flower that you heard! OCKLAWAHA
Everything begins with a first step. If the first step here is whacking down that ugly monstrosity then it's still good. That will lead to the next step, whatever it is, and we'll get there!
Quote from: Springfield Chicken on December 09, 2010, 09:02:51 AM
Everything begins with a first step. If the first step here is whacking down that ugly monstrosity then it's still good. That will lead to the next step, whatever it is, and we'll get there!
And hopefully we'll still be alive when that happens.
(http://www.spartanburgspark.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/question_mark2-1.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TQD1nTechDI/AAAAAAAADNc/FUA6tNL1L4E/s800/streetcar%20claude%20nolan%20building.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TQD1nHPzTHI/AAAAAAAADNY/ynoYnroQK1Y/s800/Streetcar%20museum%20Lakawanna.jpg)
JUST SAY'IN
OCKLAWAHA
Just saying what? The picture are good but it looks like you are saying that the old Claude Nolan should be turned into a rail museum or something?
One of my colleges had a dorm that was a renovated factory building. It was cool, I lived in it for a year. My pottery class was in the backside of the dorm as the factory building was HUGE. And coincidently is was/is located in Springfield, MA.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 08, 2010, 08:01:00 PM
I just drove by last Thursday and thought this would be a perfect renovation for FSCJ Dormitories.
I'm thrilled that there's even a proposal to turn this into something nice, not to mention walkable.
This "THING" is not that far from Rosa Parks Station.
Any feasible , practical reuse is better than it sitting there deteriorating, so Museum, Train Depot, Heck WALMART is ok. Just do it!
Just sayin'
Of any business that would open on the Park View site, how about Walgreen's? There seems to be a Walgreen's on every other block elsewhere around town...
Anything would be better than what is there, but you already said it Jaxson, there's a Walgreen's or CVS on every other block. Personally, I hope they can attract some stuff that isn't on every other corner already. :-)
Moreso than an unique business, that corner needs something that works that this specific area could serve as a great location for. If its a national chain that is attracted by the demographics and location, so be it. Regarding pharmacies, they may be on every other block in the burbs but they aren't anywhere within walking distance of downtown. The closest CVS store from downtown is five miles away in Arlington at the intersection of Merrill & University. The closest Walgreens near downtown is 1.7 miles away at 8th Street & I-95. Nevertheless, the Park View site could have nearly 60k sf of retail space. There's enough room for a pharmacy/national chain and other businesses.
A Target with a grocery store. Yeah. That's my dream for the corner. Wanna hear my dream for Main Street in Springfield?
A Target would probably need over 200,000 square feet of retail floor area. That won't fit on that site unless the garage they want to save is demolished for a vertical store that would take up the entire block. From what has been presented, the largest retail space available is around 12,000sf.
Target Set to Test Smaller, Urban Stores
Target (TGT) will downsize its ambitions a bit in the near future. Not in growth, but store size. Instead of littering the American landscape with even more big-box stores, the second-largest discount retailer in the U.S. wants to open smaller, more urban locations.
Outlining its store strategy last week, Target execs indicated that the retailer won't be forging ahead and a slew of larger SuperTarget locations. Instead, it will remodel existing stores and test the urban store concept to try and connect with the mass populations inside city centers instead of the folks in suburbs. Prediction: the effort won't go far. The point of people living in urban centers is familiarity and community -- the suburban feel and larger stores that compete with the mom-and-pop circuit won't cut it with city dwellers.
Points to Target for trying this, though, and appeasing its investors so it has time to recapture the consumer magic it had back in 2008 when its bright and shiny stores were gaining all the attention compared to its larger rival from Bentonville. Investing in the renovation of existing stores is a much better proposition for Target, where it can begin offering complete grocery sections and, with any luck, regional food selections that will give it a more custom feel to its population base. To that end, Target will invest $1 billion in renovation efforts for the next five to ten years.
Going back to the urban strategy -- Target could pull this off if it gets away from the "box" format and does something radical with smaller locations meant for inner-city real estate. Making those stores feel like smaller locations with the design, lighting and aesthetics that go with that format may work. What won't: downsizing the box concept and dropping those into city centers.
http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2010/01/25/target-set-to-test-smaller-urban-stores/
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/051207-MPLS-001downtownTarget.jpg)
Any idea what the urban store's square footage will be? For example, an urban Publix is still around 28,000sf.
QuoteThe new urban prototype will range anywhere from 60,000 to 100,000 square feet
http://technews.tmcnet.com/topics/associated-press/articles/104634-target-open-first-small-urban-store-seattle.htm
Here is an urban Target in Midtown Miami. Its 141,000 square feet. Smaller than the typical suburban store but still a lot larger than the largest retail footprint at the Park View project.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-Design-District/P1430022/1104851572_gM4D4-M.jpg)
Wasn't it Jim Bailey speaking on MJ about not always trying for home runs but aiming for singles...
This is the prime example. A reasonable solution is a well-appointed Walgreens/CVS that offers full services (Minute Clinic, Photo, Pharmacy, etc) alongside extended merchandise selection with perhaps a smaller coffee shop/sandwich shop attached. Drugstores are common community anchors and can really help turn a neighborhood around.
I guess it shows how low Jacksonville's expectations are if a Target is considered a "home run".
not really finehoe....urban Target stores aren't that common....so to get one is considered a big dal...even in place like LA, Miami, and Chicago
Maybe we can shoot for WalMart then:
QuoteWalmart will also be debuting a series of small-scale stores in metropolitan areas. The mini-Walmarts will be about 20,000 square feet in size, reports WWD, and Supermarket News says industry analysts predict the chain will roll out between 350 and 400 of these new format locations each year over the next ten years
http://racked.com/archives/2010/09/27/target-urban-stores.php
at this point I would be happy with that!
I can say there is an additional site location WalMart is currently looking at in our area.
An urban footprint in downtown is not one of them.
A big box department store doesn't really fit for the Park View site. And frankly, where the Uptown area is in the cycling phase, something like that type of commercial development is very far down the line. IMO, what's going to fit are retail establishments that serve THIS particular community that aren't already there... drug store, dry cleaner, fast casual restaurants... things like that. And except for a big box drug store, most places are going to be independent shops. Also, think about the gas station and its adjoining cafe across the street, working community, adjacent school and transit hubs... and think about complementing uses.
when isn't wal-mart looking for another site in NE Florida?
A few more details:
http://jaxdailyrecord.com/publicnotice.php?Category=Notice%20of%20Bids&mode=daily
Notice of Bids 10-16527
INVITATION TO BID
PHASE 1 DEMOLITION PLAN FOR THE PARK VIEW MOTEL
901 NORTH MAIN STREET
Notice is hereby given that Park View Inns, Inc.., will receive sealed Bids up until 12:00 Noon on 20 January 2011. All Bids are to be sent to Armentrout, Marbury & Associates, Inc. Attention: William F. Armentrout, Jr., 4237 Salisbury Road, Suite 409, Jacksonville, Florida 32216. All Bid envelopes must be noted on the exterior of the envelope “Phase 1 Demolition Plan for the Park View Motel 901 North Main Streetâ€. Bids will be publicly opened, read aloud, and recorded at 2:00 PM on 20 January 2011 in the 8th floor conference room at 214 N. Hogan Street.
SCOPE OF WORK: The scope of work includes the partial demolition of the Park View Motel, using wet demolition, with preservation of the existing parking structure. The work also includes sediment control, control of fugitive particulates, tree protection, and public safety on and around the work site and dewatering the existing parking structure. The existing parking structure shall be left in broom clean condition.
A pre-bid conference will be held at 214 N. Hogan Street, 8th Floor conference room on December 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM, to discuss the specific requirements of this project.
Specifications may be reviewed at the offices of Armentrout, Marbury & Associates, Inc., telephone number 904-296-9288 and obtained through Armentrout, Marbury & Associates, Inc.. The price per set of Documents is $100.00 and is required to be paid prior to receipt of the documents. Payment will be accepted by check only.
NO REFUND WILL BE MADE
FOR THESE DOCUMENTS
FEDERAL FUNDING: This Project will be funded partly or in total by the Federal Government. Therefore, Bidders must comply with Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (24 CFR, Parts 1 & 2); Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 (24 CFR, Part 115); Federal Labor Standards Provisions (HUD 4010); the Davis-Bacon Act; the Anti-Kickback Act; and the Contract Work Hours and Safety Standards Act. Bidders are advised to refer to the Federal Regulations, of these specifications for more information.
Bidders must submit the following forms with their sealed bids: Section 3 Proposal Form, Tables A and Table B, Section 3 Business Application Certification Form (To Be completed by both the Contractor and Sub-contractors), Conflict of Interest, Letters of Intent, Section 3 Economic Opportunities Plan, Appendix “Hâ€, List of Subcontractors and Shop Fabricators, Training and Apprenticeship Program Memo in accordance with 24 CFR, Part 135.
All Bids must be made on the forms provided, properly executed, placed in an envelope and mailed or delivered in accordance with this Notice.
Dec. 15/16/17 (10-16527)
Quote from: fieldafm on December 15, 2010, 02:42:43 PM
I can say there is an additional site location WalMart is currently looking at in our area.
An urban footprint in downtown is not one of them.
Maybe not, but if they're going to be opening 350-400 of these new format locations a YEAR, it's not far-fetched for Jacksonville to try and snag at least one.
QuoteWalmart will also be debuting a series of small-scale stores in metropolitan areas. The mini-Walmarts will be about 20,000 square feet in size, reports WWD, and Supermarket News says industry analysts predict the chain will roll out between 350 and 400 of these new format locations each year over the next ten years
[/quote]
oh hell no. the only thing worse than large chain 'upscale' nonsense is that soulless destroyer ov all that is good that calls itself walmart.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on December 15, 2010, 04:34:59 PM
oh hell no. the only thing worse than large chain 'upscale' nonsense is that soulless destroyer ov all that is good that calls itself walmart.
I have never bought anything in my life from a WalMart, so I understand where you are coming from. However, I must disagree that it is the only thing worse. It's far worse to have empty, rubble strown lots and abandoned buildings like we have now.
Quote from: finehoe on December 15, 2010, 04:39:41 PM
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on December 15, 2010, 04:34:59 PM
oh hell no. the only thing worse than large chain 'upscale' nonsense is that soulless destroyer ov all that is good that calls itself walmart.
I have never bought anything in my life from a WalMart, so I understand where you are coming from. However, I must disagree that it is the only thing worse. It's far worse to have empty, rubble strown lots and abandoned buildings like we have now.
Its nice to live a life where you don't need severely reduced prices, marginal quality and round-the-clock access to make ends meet.
So the Heinz Ketchup or the Hanes Socks are Publix/Target are better than the Heinz Ketchup and Hanes Socks at Walmart? Do tell.
It all the same stuff made in all the same (largely Chinese ) places.
The difference is this...Target trest its employees better and cares more about the communities they are in.
http://www.wakeupwalmart.com
http://walmartwatch.com
The Parkview Inn in it's heyday was really lovely. Had it been preserved, it would have been a great mixed use commercial/residential structure.
Whatever store goes in, I hope that it has a blend with the surrounding area (entrance to Springfield, Creek, and Park,) and it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. I would love to see an Northampton, MA vibe there.
http://gonewengland.about.com/od/mashopping/ss/aa-northampton-shops.htm (http://gonewengland.about.com/od/mashopping/ss/aa-northampton-shops.htm)
Pipe Dream, but I'm gonna dream it anway.
Quote from: finehoe on December 15, 2010, 02:25:52 PM
Maybe we can shoot for WalMart then:
QuoteWalmart will also be debuting a series of small-scale stores in metropolitan areas. The mini-Walmarts will be about 20,000 square feet in size, reports WWD, and Supermarket News says industry analysts predict the chain will roll out between 350 and 400 of these new format locations each year over the next ten years
http://racked.com/archives/2010/09/27/target-urban-stores.php
I heard of Walmart planning to do that. Is there any hope for them to our downtown? Or, would that be too much economic growth for city council's liking? Walmart has the money that a small business doesn't, so it would be quite feasible that they should have no trouble setting up shop. Again, I think city council would be their only obstacle.
WalMart is mainly looking at these stores in cities where it is difficult to build Supercenters, at least at first....Jax. isn't one of those...and with the new store on Philips near Emerson, I doubt they're looking to come downtown....I see them maybe up in the Gateway Mall area, but that's about it.
Maybe that would be a fit for Annie Lytle.. convert it into a Mini WalMart while preserving the building :D
ehh... fat chance.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 15, 2010, 09:40:47 PM
The difference is this...Target trest its employees better and cares more about the communities they are in.
And they usually have more than two registers open.
^^^Im sorry but I hate Target. I like variety and that is something they lack. And there stuff is a little pricey I went in there to find a decorative painting for the wall, and the cheapest was like 30.00. Which is shocking because you find the same thing in Wal Mart for 10 or 15. Everytime I go to Target I get mad and end up leaving and going to Wally World
I don't see this as a Target or Walmart location, both are just a few miles across the bridge. We need something that will draw people, but not either one of those, IMO, are or would be a good choice for that location
Quote from: duvaldude08 on December 21, 2010, 09:35:08 AM
^^^Im sorry but I hate Target. I like variety and that is something they lack. And there stuff is a little pricey I went in there to find a decorative painting for the wall, and the cheapest was like 30.00. Which is shocking because you find the same thing in Wal Mart for 10 or 15. Everytime I go to Target I get mad and end up leaving and going to Wally World
ov course target's more expensive than walmart. target's keen on paying its employees a living wage.
Here is a rendering of a proposed Urban Walmart in DC.
(http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2010/12/07/PH2010120707700.jpg)
Quote from: duvaldude08 on December 21, 2010, 09:35:08 AM
^^^Im sorry but I hate Target. I like variety and that is something they lack. And there stuff is a little pricey I went in there to find a decorative painting for the wall, and the cheapest was like 30.00. Which is shocking because you find the same thing in Wal Mart for 10 or 15. Everytime I go to Target I get mad and end up leaving and going to Wally World
Funny, I walk into Wal-Mart and after a couple minutes wading through zombies who seem to just be wandering aimlessly, and I can't wait to get the eff out of there.
Wal-Mart's my Elephant Graveyard...
Having a Wal*Mart come into a downtown like ours would really be counter productive for the city I would have to think. We have all these small storefronts that we want to fill, and Wal*mart has the capability to lower prices to the point where small businesses can't compete. The jobs it does create tend to be low wage with few benefits, too. It may bring some convenience to DT residents, but I think the cost is greater than the benefit. I would rather see a healthy mix of diverse small businesses and a few chains (such as a Walgreens) than to get one Wal*mart. I don't shop at Wal*mart a lot, and I get along fine.
Not enough population density for a wal mart downtown.
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 21, 2010, 11:38:35 PM
Not enough population density for a wal mart downtown.
It really sucks when you aren't good enough for a Wal-mart.
How about a good old fashioned Swap Meet?
I hope we don't get a chain of any kind. The best thing would be to have a business that is unique to Springfield that has a draw outside our area. We want to pull people into Springfield, but the people we want are the people who will appreciate it, want to be a part of it, and live in it. Not just hit a Target or WalMart because it's closer than another Target or WalMart. I'm asking Santa for something really cool! He can figure out what that is!
I'm with you, Chicken. I'd like to see a bunch of local "destination" shops like San Marco Square, Shoppes of Avondale and 5 Points. All of which looked pretty seedy at one time, by the way, before they got fixed up and became "cool."
and see...this is the problem....hoping not to get a chain....wouldn't that be better than leaving it to rot more?
YES! it would be much better and I think that that is more realistic. Like a Tj maxx or Cvs. I think local small shops are a better fit for Main street than State street
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 22, 2010, 02:12:06 PM
and see...this is the problem....hoping not to get a chain....wouldn't that be better than leaving it to rot more?
acsolutely not. that kind ov thinking is part ov why every city in america looks the same lately. better unique ruins than cloned stores.
Let's see 5-Points was dying or dead, then along came PUBLIX, EINSTEIN and STARBUCKS and bodda bing - bodda biff.... LIFE! Those unique little shops that are truly mom and pop or small corporate operations benefit from the traffic generated by a well known anchor.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: letters and numbers on December 22, 2010, 02:29:04 PM
YES! it would be much better and I think that that is more realistic. Like a Tj maxx or Cvs. I think local small shops are a better fit for Main street than State street
Good luck with that business model. All you have to do is look at the ghost of a shopping center at University and St Augustine to see the draw of national chains. Publix left and went across the street and the entire center died.
Quote from: stephendare on December 22, 2010, 03:53:15 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 22, 2010, 03:42:50 PM
Let's see 5-Points was dying or dead, then along came PUBLIX, EINSTEIN and STARBUCKS and bodda bing - bodda biff.... LIFE! Those unique little shops that are truly mom and pop or small corporate operations benefit from the traffic generated by a well known anchor.
OCKLAWAHA
It was actually the reverse....they came much later, after us indie types had already done the heavy lifting. ;)
I second that! I remember the Fusion Cafe well. It was a genius of an idea for a lot of us townies who looked for a way to have a fun night besides making the trek to Einstein-a-go-go at the Beaches. Not that there was anything wrong with Einsteins : )
It would be great if there was a locally owned/operated mom/pop business that fit this intersection perfectly AND had the capital and wherewithal to get this project off the ground. What, no takers? I guess Walgreens it is.
It would be different if the location was not going to be dependent on the people going to and from work or other shopping/ business to stop and shop. A well known name, which mostly, but not always, means a major chain, seems more likely to get those passing motorists to stop. I am hoping a smaller but well known chain takes the biggest spot and several other mom and pops take the rest. Best of both worlds and perhaps it will trickle on up Main.
Quote from: stephendare on December 22, 2010, 03:53:15 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 22, 2010, 03:42:50 PM
Let's see 5-Points was dying or dead, then along came PUBLIX, EINSTEIN and STARBUCKS and bodda bing - bodda biff.... LIFE! Those unique little shops that are truly mom and pop or small corporate operations benefit from the traffic generated by a well known anchor.
OCKLAWAHA
It was actually the reverse....they came much later, after us indie types had already done the heavy lifting. ;)
Maybe so, but I'd think the indie market is much smaller then that of a Publix or Starbucks. I have no doubt that it was the urban pioneers that kick started life here, but likewise imagine the really huge crowds and traffic jams came along with the big stores.
It might well be the indie group that rebirths downtown as well.
OCKLAWAHA
I disagree with needing an anchor store, and no, I'm not an expert either.
A collection of stores that offer similiar items is what attracts people in my opinion.
I've shared this example before:
www.4thstreetlongbeach.com
It's affectionately dubbed "Retro Row." All mom and pop stores. No chains. A couple of small eateries, coffee shop, even a vintage movie theatre. This place kicks ass. Long Beach has gone beyond embracing the arts.
Point is, I won't drive forever and a day for ONE store, but give me a few like stores in one area, and I am there. It's like mall shopping without the mall.
San Luis Obispo, CA
Northampton, MA
2 other good examples of adaptive reuse of buildings, mom and pop stores, and places people go to.
I crave antique and salvage stores in Jax, particularly in our old neighborhoods. They are virtually non-existent.
Quote from: strider on December 22, 2010, 06:53:17 PM
It would be different if the location was not going to be dependent on the people going to and from work or other shopping/ business to stop and shop. A well known name, which mostly, but not always, means a major chain, seems more likely to get those passing motorists to stop. I am hoping a smaller but well known chain takes the biggest spot and several other mom and pops take the rest. Best of both worlds and perhaps it will trickle on up Main.
Strider is exactly right - it's going to take an anchor with name recognition and significant financial resources, one attracted by high traffic counts, to get this project out of the ground. Five Points and the Avondale shopping district are very different from State and Main. Both areas have maintained decent occupancy rates since their construction. The building stock in those neighborhoods never declined to the condition of the Park View and ETH, so small businesses could move in without prohibitive construction costs. Both areas are surrounded by/
immediately adjacent to residential neighborhoods full of homes that actually have people living in them. An anchor that is more unique than a Walgreens would be ideal - something that would draw folks from San Marco, Riverside-Avondale and Arlington who might then shop at mom and pop businesses that would eventually open on Main. I would love to see a small Target (it would be the closest one to San Marco and Riverside) but agree with previous posters that my ideal is probably not realistic. A World Market? Utrecht? Small Crate and Barrel? Still dreaming, I know....
Quote from: stephendare on December 22, 2010, 03:53:15 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 22, 2010, 03:42:50 PM
Let's see 5-Points was dying or dead, then along came PUBLIX, EINSTEIN and STARBUCKS and bodda bing - bodda biff.... LIFE! Those unique little shops that are truly mom and pop or small corporate operations benefit from the traffic generated by a well known anchor.
OCKLAWAHA
It was actually the reverse....they came much later, after us indie types had already done the heavy lifting. ;)
Thats mostly how it always is in every city, but I'd argue it isn't really needed to the extent that most Jax residents perceive it as. I think a lot of residents here in general don't feel comfortable in an area until they see stuff in it they recognize (like a Starbucks, a Publix, etc). I think that's what we've become in our mallified, planned neighborhood, drive everywhere closed off society.
I do look at it as a necessary evil, but its really sort of a double-edge sword. On one hand the chains help a once blighted area grow faster, but on the other, too many chains & you start to look like the suburbs in Anywhere America. Riverside suffers a bit of this, but they still have a pretty decent mix I think (for now).
But I personally think its getting more & more of the "faux hipster" vibe than anything else lately (the young well-off using mommy & daddy's $$ to move to the area & play cool urban kid dress up time). Real hipsters don't have a lot of money, don't consider themselves hip or trendy & don't try so hard. And they certainly wouldn't be caught dead in a Starbucks drinking coffee that tastes like week old piss, all the while the independently owned ones close down a month after they open. Just saying.
BTW, I'm not trying to be a jerk (I'm really not) & I don't think everyone there is like that, but its just what I see more & more of.
i agree with PSU, for the most part. stephen too, come to think ov it--five points and riverside in general saw a lot more ov me when theory shop was open and publix wasn't there yet. i should watch that whole agreeïng with people thing; i wouldn't want it to become a habit.
I think the problem of traffic is going to be completely status and race based. A huge percentage of the yahoo's with disposable income around here wouldn't go near the place if they spot a homeless person, or GOD FORBID a African-American or Latino.
If the new development goes unique, it will depend solely on that "indie" "arts" group to keep the registers ringing. 5-Points/Riverside/San Marco/Avondale/Ortega all have that element in large numbers, but does Springfield? 3-Layers success would indicate that it does when it is offered, it just hasn't been offered with any scale.
Maybe some LOUNGE-STREETCARS, silent movie studios, and a black sheriff is all we need to get back to our progressive liberal roots.
OCKLAWAHA
I think you guys are putting too much thought into this. Whoever comes in with money to invest in that site is who is going to be there. I doubt the ownership group is going to turn away a chain or independent if they come in with the right amount of cash needed to stimulate a positive return on their investment. Nevertheless, given the demographics, site location and proposed development layout, I'll place my bet on something like a CVS or Walgreens, with smaller retailers being a mix of local and national.
Quote from: stephendare on December 23, 2010, 11:02:03 AM
QuoteBut I personally think its getting more & more of the "faux hipster" vibe than anything else lately (the young well-off using mommy & daddy's $$ to move to the area & play cool urban kid dress up time). Real hipsters don't have a lot of money, don't consider themselves hip or trendy & don't try so hard. And they certainly wouldn't be caught dead in a Starbucks drinking coffee that tastes like week old piss, all the while the independently owned ones close down a month after they open. Just saying.
Meh. Ive lived in most of the hipster scenes of the US, and Ive never seen a hipster scene that wasnt half trustafarian. It takes money coming from somewhere to afford leisure time.
Even back in the beginning of five points, there were extremely poor hipsters hanging around barely surviving. But it was also kids from some of the wealthiest families of the city. Especially the ones who had travelled.
The key is always street traffic, how many people are walking around and what is the perception of safety.
And the indie kids provided and built that in five points for 10 years of slow progress upwards before the Publix deigned to open there.
Back in the '90s, I remember when the 'grunge' trend went mainstream. Instead of trolling the thrift stores, folks could get their designer distressed flannel shirts from some of the most high end stores. This is when I noticed that the same jocks and cheerleaders from high school were beginning to adopt the same styles that they ridiculed a mere year or two earlier. That said, the Five Points crowd was diverse and afforded the same acceptance that others in North Florida would hardly begrudge.
Has there been any progress with this?
?
I agree with Lake, in that whomever comes in with the financial capabilities, etc., will be the one. I also agree that it would be a smaller chain to do this. When you consider Target and the other larger stores, there's the room for the actual store, but where would the huge parking lot be? Look at all of those large chain stores, they include large parking lots/garages and I don't see where this will fit into the current location.
Myself, I'd love to see a chain store such as Target there, given that I prefer to shop locally instead of traveling across town. I'd also love to see some unique shops...which is generally how the smaller malls go, and this is basically what this would be, a small mall.
QuoteMyself, I'd love to see a chain store such as Target there, given that I prefer to shop locally instead of traveling across town.
I don't think that's how most people define 'shopping locally', but to each his own.
I generally only spend my money at the local places...in my neighborhood. However, I see what you're saying, but think about it...there will be money that stays here, people employed, people who will dine in the area, and of course, taxes paid...so, although it's a chain, it's still local
Quote from: Springfielder on January 19, 2011, 12:29:49 PM
I generally only spend my money at the local places...in my neighborhood. However, I see what you're saying, but think about it...there will be money that stays here, people employed, people who will dine in the area, and of course, taxes paid...so, although it's a chain, it's still local
And cue Chris.....
QuoteRight, but that's a flawed analysis Tufsu. What really matters is how much money makes it back into the local economy. The reality is very little. All we're really doing is subsidizing a money-losing business so that SMG in Chicago, Omni Hotels in Dallas, and whatever corporate chain restaurants they all operate, can make money. It's us as a local community handing over money to giant corporations thousands of miles away.
If you look at this alleged trickle-down effect, it doesn't exist. The extent of any of these players' local involvement is almost nil, they are remotely-run and hire as few employees as possible at as close to minimum wage as possible to do the physical running of the facility, and then the income is shipped out to support a corporate infrastructure located elsewhere. You or I, nor the rest of this community, will ever see the lion's share of the income generated off this business, despite being forced to fund it as taxpayers. Your normal hotel has a banquet/functions manager and a general manager that make a 6-figure salary, a couple mid-level management types pulling $50k, and then the other 98% making $7/hr with no benefits.
If you just do the math on that, it's already parasitic because that's not a living wage, which means we're all supporting some portion of their healthcare when they visit an ER, and likely some portion of their rent and food and transportation as well depending on what assistance programs they're on. These type of businesses (corporate chain restaurants, hotels, etc.) are exactly what DO NOT give back to a community, because the profits are shipped back to wherever the corporation is located and their involvement with the community is deliberately focused on paying as little to anyone as possible. There is a larger debate here, on the fairness involved in paying someone what you know they can't live on, but I digress.
This is not a substitute, in any way shape or form, for an actual industry (manufacturing, shipping, etc.) that pays a living wage and has roots in the community. We should get out of this taxpayer-subsidized money-losing business, that does nothing but hand out our local tax dollars to foreign corporations.
The corporation has to be headquartered in Jacksonville for the money to stay in Jacksonville.... ::)
QuoteHowever, I see what you're saying, but think about it...there will be money that stays here, people employed, people who will dine in the area, and of course, taxes paid...so, although it's a chain, it's still local
About 30% of the money stays local at a chain... a true local mom and pop has about 70% circulation locally for comparison.
In Springfield however, ANY business needs to be supported.
I know what a true mom & pop store is....as for the other figure of 30%, it's still 30% if tax revenue that isn't there now. Like I said before, I feel it would be beneficial to have a chain as the anchor and the rest with the little shops.
Quote from: fieldafm on January 19, 2011, 12:51:44 PM
QuoteHowever, I see what you're saying, but think about it...there will be money that stays here, people employed, people who will dine in the area, and of course, taxes paid...so, although it's a chain, it's still local
About 30% of the money stays local at a chain... a true local mom and pop has about 70% circulation locally for comparison.
In Springfield however, ANY business needs to be supported.
Yeah, at this point, anything opening up in this space (well, short of a strip joint or something) would need neighborhood support. Wouldn't it be great to argue over which national chain was going to open up a new store at the site of the old Park View?
Oh believe me, I've been sounding the Park View site as a multi-use commercial building with self-contained parking for some time. Go back, as I compared this parcel with a similar concept in Jax Beach.
Due to the high volume of traffic at the corner, the needs of the surrounding community(DT working population and residential population in Springfield) and the limited footprint... a drug store chain is the MOST viable option. I can say for sure that you can forget about Target and WalMart... none of those have current plans anywhere near that area.
Any updates on this project?
Quote from: cgaskins on February 09, 2011, 11:54:55 AM
Any updates on this project?
This and the Laura Street Trio project are in the same corner of the Magic Kingdom. They are separated there by a long stretch of greenspace in front of the Courthouse. And that courthouse only cost $140 million!
Quote from: Bativac on February 09, 2011, 01:21:41 PM
This and the Laura Street Trio project are in the same corner of the Magic Kingdom. They are separated there by a long stretch of greenspace in front of the Courthouse. And that courthouse only cost $140 million!
Is that between Fuddrucker's and Ikea?
Quote from: copperfiend on February 09, 2011, 01:28:56 PM
Quote from: Bativac on February 09, 2011, 01:21:41 PM
This and the Laura Street Trio project are in the same corner of the Magic Kingdom. They are separated there by a long stretch of greenspace in front of the Courthouse. And that courthouse only cost $140 million!
Is that between Fuddrucker's and Ikea?
Exactly, right across from the Macy's!
Good thing they put in that streetcar, or it could get tough to walk all the way from Macy's to Ikea.
LOL! you guys are killing me!
Quote from: Bativac on February 09, 2011, 01:21:41 PM
Quote from: cgaskins on February 09, 2011, 11:54:55 AM
Any updates on this project?
This and the Laura Street Trio project are in the same corner of the Magic Kingdom. They are separated there by a long stretch of greenspace in front of the Courthouse. And that courthouse only cost $140 million!
In other words , hurry up and wait .. It aint happening.. The Courthouse was far more important.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 09, 2011, 02:01:14 PM
Good thing they put in that streetcar, or it could get tough to walk all the way from Macy's to Ikea.
You could always take the gondola ride across the St Johns to get there.
http://www.metjax.com/forums/showthread.php?s=26c7c041e93d1045dfc280a1ec5a33ec&t=4947
Ohhhh MetJax. What ever happened to Chipwich and some of the old folks. I kept my name from the old days, did other people change names??
Quote from: Springfielder on January 19, 2011, 01:17:33 PM
I know what a true mom & pop store is....as for the other figure of 30%, it's still 30% if tax revenue that isn't there now. Like I said before, I feel it would be beneficial to have a chain as the anchor and the rest with the little shops.
You're not going to create more purchasing by adding a huge chain, unless it draws more people. All the money going to Target or Walmart is money that would otherwise be going to some other business. So you don't gain 30%, you go from 70% to 30%. And actually its not even the same 30%. The economies of scale allow the big chain to charge you less for those goods. So you might spend a dollar at the mom and pop, and 70cents stays in town. Now, you'll spend 90cents at Walmart, and 27cents stays in town (30% of 90). You spend less and there is less profit taken in on a whole. However, all that profit goes to some dude in New York who has plenty of money instead of to a local small business owner who is able to make a living off it. Not to mention if you have only small businesses, you have more businesses which creates more options for employees (more competition by businesses for employees), and employees can get better wages (instead of having only one option - Walmart - and being forced to accept their terms).
And we might also consider that a small business owner is much more likely to invest some of their profits back into the local community. So yes, you have to pay a small business more to get the same product, but you get back more than just the product in return. You just don't think of it that way when you need a new pair of shoes.
Walmart is a city killer, not a city builder. That's why Walmart is the largest owner of vacant land in the country. I say don't try to draw in the big guys and their big parking lots. That's not going to create the downtown that draws people in. Let's just stay out of the way of small business owners and let them develop this thing organically.
That all said, I think this development could be great.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 11, 2011, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: Springfielder on January 19, 2011, 01:17:33 PM
I know what a true mom & pop store is....as for the other figure of 30%, it's still 30% if tax revenue that isn't there now. Like I said before, I feel it would be beneficial to have a chain as the anchor and the rest with the little shops.
You're not going to create more purchasing by adding a huge chain, unless it draws more people. All the money going to Target or Walmart is money that would otherwise be going to some other business. So you don't gain 30%, you go from 70% to 30%. And actually its not even the same 30%. The economies of scale allow the big chain to charge you less for those goods. So you might spend a dollar at the mom and pop, and 70cents stays in town. Now, you'll spend 90cents at Walmart, and 27cents stays in town (30% of 90). You spend less and there is less profit taken in on a whole. However, all that profit goes to some dude in New York who has plenty of money instead of to a local small business owner who is able to make a living off it. Not to mention if you have only small businesses, you have more businesses which creates more options for employees (more competition by businesses for employees), and employees can get better wages (instead of having only one option - Walmart - and being forced to accept their terms).
And we might also consider that a small business owner is much more likely to invest some of their profits back into the local community. So yes, you have to pay a small business more to get the same product, but you get back more than just the product in return. You just don't think of it that way when you need a new pair of shoes.
Walmart is a city killer, not a city builder. That's why Walmart is the largest owner of vacant land in the country. I say don't try to draw in the big guys and their big parking lots. That's not going to create the downtown that draws people in. Let's just stay out of the way of small business owners and let them develop this thing organically.
That all said, I think this development could be great.
Well I think you can relax, I do believe wal-mart will pass on the site, the competition with the Macys and Ikea would just be too much
Quote
Well I think you can relax, I do believe wal-mart will pass on the site, the competition with the Macys and Ikea would just be too much
Yeah right.
Neither of them will out bid Bass Pro. Clearly you know nothing about the Springfield retail market.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 11, 2011, 12:34:06 PM
Quote
Well I think you can relax, I do believe wal-mart will pass on the site, the competition with the Macys and Ikea would just be too much
Yeah right.
Neither of them will out bid Bass Pro. Clearly you know nothing about the Springfield retail market.
Now THAT'S an idea! Once we get Hogans Creek cleaned up Bass Pro will be a great fit for that location!
Quote from: Miss Fixit on February 11, 2011, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 11, 2011, 12:34:06 PM
Quote
Well I think you can relax, I do believe wal-mart will pass on the site, the competition with the Macys and Ikea would just be too much
Yeah right.
Neither of them will out bid Bass Pro. Clearly you know nothing about the Springfield retail market.
Now THAT'S an idea! Once we get Hogans Creek cleaned up Bass Pro will be a great fit for that location!
Be sure to leave room for a parking garage and the Southern Rock Hall Of Fame and Monster Truck Arena.
Quote from: civil42806 on February 11, 2011, 12:14:23 PM
Well I think you can relax, I do believe wal-mart will pass on the site, the competition with the Macys and Ikea would just be too much
Ikea I could live with.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 11, 2011, 02:19:09 PM
Quote from: civil42806 on February 11, 2011, 12:14:23 PM
Well I think you can relax, I do believe wal-mart will pass on the site, the competition with the Macys and Ikea would just be too much
Ikea I could live with.
The store, you can live with. Certainly not the cheap uncomfortable furniture, LOL
Well... first things first. Demolish the building.. it is a Deathtrap X 1,000,000!
Quote from: Timkin on February 11, 2011, 10:03:07 PM
Well... first things first. Demolish the building.. it is a Deathtrap X 1,000,000!
people keep saying that, but as far as i can tell the only injuries related to the building are from when some idiot ran into it.
OK... Its a hideous eyesore. Tear it down. Or do you disagree with that as well ;)
i do, actually. i think it's beautiful in its own way--but i don't delude myself into thinking that anyöne agrees with me.
ummmm....okay.. :)
Hmmm...as expected, pharmacy it is.
QuoteDemolition and renovation of the old Park View Inn on State Street hasn't kept pace with previous predictions. But work has begun.
In September, one of the owners said a contract would be let within two weeks and the new parking garage open by April. In December, the word was the demolition would start in January and the garage open by summer.
Tyler Saldutti, who is handling leasing for the project, said a contract was signed a couple of weeks ago and that the first demolition crew is now working on the motel. But it's primarily doing asbestos removal and it will be another 45 days before major demolition starts.
Meanwhile, Saldutti said that he has a letter of intent from an Atlanta-based retail developer for a project that would include a 24-hour pharmacy.
Saldutti, who also represents the owners of the old Claude Nolan Cadillac building next door, said he's in discussion with other developers for a possible nightclub and/or boutique hotel there.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-03-23/story/works-progress-updates-park-and-king-tulsa-welding-and-more#ixzz1HXygSs6k
24-Pharmacy will work out fantastic.
Happy news.
Great News!! I passed by today and they are removing the asbestos. Im glad to see atleast one projet is moving as expected.
"Letter of intent" which translates to "I'll believe it when I see it."
I will say that this is one building whose time has come and gone. I won't be sorry to see the Park View torn down... but I do not believe we will see the site developed anytime soon. I hope I'm proven wrong!
The site won't be abandoned. They aren't tearing the entire thing down. Only the old hotel room tower portion. They're keeping and remodeling the existing garage.
Goody...............just what we need ......another parking garage down town! I guess they want in on the parking garage gravy train too? Makes me wonder just which power/money circle will be involved on this blight to downtown..............maybe Vescor is branching out into other area's!
Quote from: CS Foltz on March 24, 2011, 04:49:47 PM
Goody...............just what we need ......another parking garage down town! I guess they want in on the parking garage gravy train too? Makes me wonder just which power/money circle will be involved on this blight to downtown..............maybe Vescor is branching out into other area's!
Dude, it's an already existing parking garage. They are taking an existing garage and adding retail to it. How is that a bad thing?? Check your facts before you rant.
CS..chill....this is a pretty decent development that includes an EXISTING parking garage...parking on that site would be a must for a pharmacy (or any other retail really), so a gargae is better than more surface parking.
This is good news. At least they are moving forward with something on the site. The Hotel portion is the worst looking , as it has the front and rear windows, doors, etc, already missing. Glad to hear work has finally begun.
24 hr pharmacy is another word for convenience store. I am not as excited about this as other seem to be. Heck Walgreen's and CVS sell singles at some sites. OK, so it might be a little more upscale than say Blue Front....but a 24hr Pharmacy on that spot is not going to be like the CVS at the Epicenter in CLT.
what did you think it would be uptowngirl? It was pretty clear to some of us from the beginning that the one proposed building (around 15,000 sf) was set up perfectly to be a drugstore...and given the nearby Walgreens up by Shands, I'm betting on CVS
I'll be okay with a standard CVS or Walgreens box, as shown on the conceptual renderings. However, I never expected the development to be like Charlotte's Epicenter.
I never expected the Epicenter either, I am just saying that 24hr pharmacy is a fancy way to say convience store with drugs, so while that may be better than a crumbling vacant motel- I would prefer to see another type of retail at that spot. We already have like four pharamacies in and around the neighborhood. My concern with this type of business is really around our parks, I can see the trash already in Confederate and the Dog Park.
really...how much trash is collected by the Walgreens at Park & King?
A CVS would be nice. I just hope it isn't under lock down like the one near Shands. I have to ask for a key just to get Axe deodorant!
You're tho one who wears that stuff! 8)
haha. it works!
That is where I am going fsujax! TUFSU- Park and King is not even remotely the same as the Parkview in area. Look to the Shell or Winn Dixie.....
I am not against it, SOMETHING needs to be there.... I just hope it is managed correctly because today a 24 hr pharmacy is an "upscale convience store" of which we already have a bunch that we spend weekends cleaning up after :-)
Someone mentioned on myspringfield that it was going to be a Walgreens. To compare just look at the Walgreens on Eighth Street. The one on State Street won't have as much foot traffic so it will probably be more tidy.
I hope you are right John P! I look at Winn Dixie and the Shell and start thinking OHHHHHNOOOOOO. But like I said, we need something there.
What's wrong with the Walgreens next to Shands? I don't go there often but when I do it appears to look like any other Walgreens on the inside.
exactly Lake...and uptowngirl, please explain what is so bad about the Winn Dixie on State Street?
well, if you enjoy being stalked in the lot and while shopping in the aisles and asked repeatedly for money, then being cursed for not giving it...nothing I guess. If you enjoy purchasing items that are already opened when you get home, standing in line while customers have individual items taking off trying to get to the point they have enough money for, if you do not mind buying those same items that have been sitting waiting to go back to the cooler, and if you do not mind the trash strewn on the sidewalks and crows leading away from the store....nothing I guess.
I shop there all the time and have never been asked for money in the aisles...and I've really never had an issue in the parking lot either.
As to the food itself, major improvements were made 3 years ago when the store was renovated...I have had few problems since.
And God forbid people have to use food stamps....sounds to me like you're wishing for the Riverside Publix or something...you do understand where Springfield is located right?
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 25, 2011, 09:35:41 AM
I shop there all the time and have never been asked for money in the aisles...and I've really never had an issue in the parking lot either.
As to the food itself, major improvements were made 3 years ago when the store was renovated...I have had few problems since.
And God forbid people have to use food stamps....sounds to me like you're wishing for the Riverside Publix or something...you do understand where Springfield is located right?
Hey people use food stamps at the Riverside Publix too, albeit less frequently than at that Winn Dixie. This ain't the 'burbs.
We need a Trader Joe or Whole Food Market here more often. Publix and Winn-Dixie has dominantly inflated the local market to the point that it is much expensive here as it is in California or New York where the living standards are higher and cost more than here in Jacksonville.
-Josh
Have you ever lived in New York?
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 25, 2011, 09:32:15 AM
well, if you enjoy being stalked in the lot and while shopping in the aisles and asked repeatedly for money, then being cursed for not giving it...nothing I guess. If you enjoy purchasing items that are already opened when you get home, standing in line while customers have individual items taking off trying to get to the point they have enough money for, if you do not mind buying those same items that have been sitting waiting to go back to the cooler, and if you do not mind the trash strewn on the sidewalks and crows leading away from the store....nothing I guess.
Okay, so the issue isn't the actual building structure or company operating the business. Your issue is with some of the customers and maintainance of public ROW?
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 09:58:05 AM
We need a Trader Joe or Whole Food Market here more often.
If Starbucks can't keep it going, there's no way this project or even downtown, will be seeing a Trader Joes or Whole Foods open anytime soon.The demographics simply aren't there to support them in those specific locations. Nevertheless, a Walgreens or CVS helping to anchor some smaller specialty retail on this corner is a huge plus for Springfield and downtown. Especially in this economy.
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 09:58:05 AM
We need a Trader Joe or Whole Food Market here more often. Publix and Winn-Dixie has dominantly inflated the local market to the point that it is much expensive here as it is in California or New York where the living standards are higher and cost more than here in Jacksonville.
-Josh
I know first hand that a powerful entity is working to bring a viable competitor to Jacksonville/Florida to combat Publix.
It isn't Trader Joe's though.
Must be Kroger!
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 09:58:05 AM
We need a Trader Joe or Whole Food Market here more often.
If Starbucks can't keep it going, there's no way this project or even downtown, will be seeing a Trader Joes or Whole Foods open anytime soon.The demographics simply aren't there to support them in those specific locations. Nevertheless, a Walgreens or CVS helping to anchor some smaller specialty retail on this corner is a huge plus for Springfield and downtown. Especially in this economy.
[/quote]
Agreed. Unfortunately one of the real estate agents working on the property (I don't think he is anymore) told a few people that he had a rep from Trader Joe's coming to look at the site and got people excited. However, another person in the commercial real estate field that I trust told me that he had been trying to get Trader Joe's people to Jacksonville for sometime and that this agent was using "Trader Joe's" as a way to excite everyone and entice other investors/businesses.
A Whole Foods or Trader Joe's would likely go in San Marco or The Southbank before DT. That is the only spot in the core where you might be able to get the demographics to work in a 5 or 10 mile radius.
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 10:12:44 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 09:58:05 AM
We need a Trader Joe or Whole Food Market here more often. Publix and Winn-Dixie has dominantly inflated the local market to the point that it is much expensive here as it is in California or New York where the living standards are higher and cost more than here in Jacksonville.
-Josh
I know first hand that a powerful entity is working to bring a viable competitor to Jacksonville/Florida to combat Publix.
It isn't Trader Joe's though.
No sane person would ever come to Florida and even attempt to trump the mighty Publix. Impossible.
How about a CVS, Dunkin Donuts and a Local Restaurant in a Courtyard Marriott on the site.
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 10:25:16 AM
The demographics are there, City Life.
The problem is the toxic bubble of policies in Downtown.
Like Springfield, the reason the commercial district failed to develop had a lot more to do with policy and politics than it did with demographics.
The demographics to support a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's are in place in DT?
I am sure they would look at their market area as more than 32202. I think Stephen has a good point.
Quote from: fsujax on March 25, 2011, 10:33:57 AM
I am sure they would look at their market area as more than 32202. I think Stephen has a good point.
When retailers and grocers look at locations, they put a 5 and 10 mile radius around the location and look at the demographics inside.
Retailers like Trader Joe's and Whole Food's are looking for upper middle class incomes and up for their demographics. From their standpoint (not mine) it makes no sense to open a location in DT, because all of the demographics north of DT (save portions of Springfield) are not even close to what they are looking for.
If they were to put their little bubble in San Marco or the Southbank they would hit, San Marco, St. Nicholas, Miramar, Epping Forest, San Jose, Riverside, Avondale, parts of Ortega, DT, and Springfield.
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 10:25:16 AM
The demographics are there, City Life.
The problem is the toxic bubble of policies in Downtown.
Like Springfield, the reason the commercial district failed to develop had a lot more to do with policy and politics than it did with demographics.
^They aren't, at least in the case of Publix (I used to do architectural work for them and a major retail developer, who's centers are typically anchored by Publix). Publix's CEO told me the average household income and residential population of the Northbank/surrounding neighborhoods did not meet their minimum locational requirements. As a rule of thumb, a chain that size typically needs a local market population of around 20k to make it their worthwhile. DT is no where near that. While we can exceed that number by including the surrounding neighborhoods, they also have to account for the fact that they already have two stores (Gateway/Riverside), another proposed (San Marco) and a Winn-Dixie and Food Lion within a five mile radius. A new chain would have to be willing to accept that there are already 4 grocery markets and one proposed within a five mile radius of downtown (and I'm not even including what's in Arlington or down Beach and Atlantic Blvds). If people want a full blown grocery near downtown, in addition to the Winn Dixie that already exists, it would be better to focus on a smaller niche market like an ALDI.
Quote from: copperfiend on March 25, 2011, 10:06:43 AM
Have you ever lived in New York?
Haha no, but I have visited there plenty of time, have good friends who live there, etc. There are more activities, more options, more things in New York especially New York City than Jacksonville.
-Josh
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2011, 10:41:32 AM
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 10:25:16 AM
The demographics are there, City Life.
The problem is the toxic bubble of policies in Downtown.
Like Springfield, the reason the commercial district failed to develop had a lot more to do with policy and politics than it did with demographics.
^They aren't, at least in the case of Publix (I used to do architectural work for them and a major retail developer, who's centers are typically anchored by Publix). Publix's CEO told me the average household income and residential population of the Northbank/surrounding neighborhoods did not meet their minimum locational requirements. As a rule of thumb, a chain that size typically needs a local market population of around 20k to make it their worthwhile. DT is no where near that. While we can exceed that number by including the surrounding neighborhoods, they also have to account for the fact that they already have two stores (Gateway/Riverside), another proposed (San Marco) and a Winn-Dixie and Food Lion within a five mile radius. A new chain would have to be willing to accept that there are already 4 grocery markets and one proposed within a five mile radius of downtown (and I'm not even including what's in Arlington or down Beach and Atlantic Blvds). If people want a full blown grocery near downtown, in addition to the Winn Dixie that already exists, it would be better to focus on a smaller niche market like an ALDI.
If they aren't there for a Publix, they sure as heck aren't there for a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's.
I think ALDI is a great idea Lake. I know they are expanding all over Florida and recently went into Daytona Beach.
I wanted to go after them for a location in Springfield....but......
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 10:12:44 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 09:58:05 AM
We need a Trader Joe or Whole Food Market here more often. Publix and Winn-Dixie has dominantly inflated the local market to the point that it is much expensive here as it is in California or New York where the living standards are higher and cost more than here in Jacksonville.
-Josh
I know first hand that a powerful entity is working to bring a viable competitor to Jacksonville/Florida to combat Publix.
It isn't Trader Joe's though.
Best of luck but they will go the way of Albertson's and Harris Teeter. Not only did they pack up and leave but Publix bought alot of their old locations.
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: copperfiend on March 25, 2011, 10:06:43 AM
Have you ever lived in New York?
Haha no, but I have visited there plenty of time, have good friends who live there, etc. There are more activities, more options, more things in New York especially New York City than Jacksonville.
-Josh
Yeah and it's hella more expensive to go grocery shopping in NY than it is at Publix or Winn Dixie.
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 10:51:34 AM
I wanted to go after them for a location in Springfield....but......
but...they are already planning to come to town? It appears so on their website.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on March 25, 2011, 11:04:06 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 10:51:34 AM
I wanted to go after them for a location in Springfield....but......
but...they are already planning to come to town? It appears so on their website.
I was talking about a year and a half ago...
LOL, I never said anyone was paying with foodstamps. Usually it is the customer using cash. I mean you should be able to run through some basic numbers in your head and know generally if you are even close...seems like some have a vision of the customer using foodstamps that is not too accurate.
Lake you are correct, I have no issue with a Walgreens or CVS (I do like CVS better), just the maintenance and upkeep/security of one in that location. As we are all aware we have quite a homeless issue in that area, and I can see issues here if not managed correctly.
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 10:39:49 AM
Quote from: fsujax on March 25, 2011, 10:33:57 AM
I am sure they would look at their market area as more than 32202. I think Stephen has a good point.
When retailers and grocers look at locations, they put a 5 and 10 mile radius around the location and look at the demographics inside.
Retailers like Trader Joe's and Whole Food's are looking for upper middle class incomes and up for their demographics. From their standpoint (not mine) it makes no sense to open a location in DT, because all of the demographics north of DT (save portions of Springfield) are not even close to what they are looking for.
If they were to put their little bubble in San Marco or the Southbank they would hit, San Marco, St. Nicholas, Miramar, Epping Forest, San Jose, Riverside, Avondale, parts of Ortega, DT, and Springfield.
correct!
Quote from: copperfiend on March 25, 2011, 10:57:06 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 10:12:44 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 09:58:05 AM
We need a Trader Joe or Whole Food Market here more often. Publix and Winn-Dixie has dominantly inflated the local market to the point that it is much expensive here as it is in California or New York where the living standards are higher and cost more than here in Jacksonville.
-Josh
I know first hand that a powerful entity is working to bring a viable competitor to Jacksonville/Florida to combat Publix.
It isn't Trader Joe's though.
Best of luck but they will go the way of Albertson's and Harris Teeter. Not only did they pack up and leave but Publix bought alot of their old locations.
Not quite though. This is a better grocer than either of those two and said powerful entity can definitely make things happen.
Not saying it will come to fruition, but it is being explored.
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: copperfiend on March 25, 2011, 10:57:06 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 10:12:44 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 09:58:05 AM
We need a Trader Joe or Whole Food Market here more often. Publix and Winn-Dixie has dominantly inflated the local market to the point that it is much expensive here as it is in California or New York where the living standards are higher and cost more than here in Jacksonville.
-Josh
I know first hand that a powerful entity is working to bring a viable competitor to Jacksonville/Florida to combat Publix.
It isn't Trader Joe's though.
Best of luck but they will go the way of Albertson's and Harris Teeter. Not only did they pack up and leave but Publix bought alot of their old locations.
Not quite though. This is a better grocer than either of those two and said powerful entity can definitely make things happen.
Not saying it will come to fruition, but it is being explored.
The only possible chain would be Kroger. Publix recently passed them as the number one grocery retailer in the Atlanta area. I wouldn't think Kroger would be in a big sweat to move to Florida, which is like Publix mob territory.
Just wondering out loud... what would a green transit way, with streetcar in a park like setting do for that area, if the old F & J was converted from Beaver to 21st and on to Gateway?
I've been to the Walgreen's exactly once, and got harassed going in and out, then watched said strung-out female dart off into 8Th street towards Mickey D's with a manager yelling after her. Great entertainment really.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: copperfiend on March 25, 2011, 10:57:54 AM
Quote from: wsansewjs on March 25, 2011, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: copperfiend on March 25, 2011, 10:06:43 AM
Have you ever lived in New York?
Haha no, but I have visited there plenty of time, have good friends who live there, etc. There are more activities, more options, more things in New York especially New York City than Jacksonville.
-Josh
Yeah and it's hella more expensive to go grocery shopping in NY than it is at Publix or Winn Dixie.
My point is that the cost of living here in Jacksonville is cheaper than in New York City, BUT the grocery like Publix and Jacksonville is too expensive for our cost of living here overall. In other words, why not bring in a competitor that has a large foot in the market that has higher cost standard, but get better products / services than the two primary ones (Winn-Dixie and Publix). That would push them around and teach them about "virtually monopolizing" the market in prices in the area where the cost of living is low.
Ah, the beauty of competition for the consumers.-Josh
As I said Stephen, retailers and grocers use 5 and 10 mile bubbles for their demographics. They don't give a crap about Amelia Island, St. Mary's, GA, etc when it comes to opening a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's DT.
When talking about chains in Springfield and DT, they absolutely do look at the demographics and they absolutely do hold the area back.
Go ask Rich Trendel or Bill Cesery if demographics don't hold Springfield and Main Street back. They will laugh in your face.
However, the demographics are far from the only thing holding Main Street back. Hionedes has no desire to do anything to make a market (I learned this first hand), and SPAR's Commercial Revitalization efforts are downright pathetic (the reason why I left my job there)
You would think a Trader Joes somewhere would have made more retail sense than Whole Foods. How is the Whole Foods doing?
From what I heard on the grape vine. The Whole Foods in Mandarin is their worst performing store in the country. I cannot verify it at this time.
That location is just terrible (access stinks). They should have opened at SJTC when they had the chance.
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 12:11:44 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 25, 2011, 11:45:23 AM
As I said Stephen, retailers and grocers use 5 and 10 mile bubbles for their demographics. They don't give a crap about Amelia Island, St. Mary's, GA, etc when it comes to opening a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's DT.
When talking about chains in Springfield and DT, they absolutely do look at the demographics and they absolutely do hold the area back.
Go ask Rich Trendel or Bill Cesery if demographics don't hold Springfield and Main Street back. They will laugh in your face.
However, the demographics are far from the only thing holding Main Street back. Hionedes has no desire to do anything to make a market (I learned this first hand), and SPAR's Commercial Revitalization efforts are downright pathetic (the reason why I left my job there)
Well, Jeremy, Since I've done this for almost as long as youve been alive, I don't think either gentlemen would laugh in my face.
What you mean to say, although you don't have the experience to know it, is that some retailers and grocers are not compatible with the demographics of downtown, and some retailers don't give a crap about amelia island.
Obviously Walgreens must not have consulted you before they decided to open. And since demographics werent the problem with Dunkin Donuts, they must not gave called you before they looked seriously at Richie's 2nd street location.
You know, its easy enough to google all this: Look up 'retail industry conventions'. ;)
Hang on to your ego.
They would laugh at the notion that the demographics of Springfield's surrounding neighborhoods don't hurt it. Not you. Don't take it personally.
We are talking about Whole Foods and Trader Joe's here. That is all. Somehow you went off on a tangent, but Trader Joe's and Whole Foods is what the discussion is about.
I hope you realize that Walgreens and Whole Foods/Trader Joe's don't have the same demographic standards. That is what the discussion is about.
I wouldn't need to google retail industry conventions. I've been to ICSC in Orlando. Maybe we can carpool to the next one?
The sooner the thoughts of getting national retailers (other than a drugstore) in either DT or Springfield are forgotten, the sooner a real revitilization can begin.
Only after a respectable number of locally owned businesses have found success, will you see any GENUINE interest by the nationals.
If Borders was truly interested in Springfield, that goes a long way toward explaining why they are in bankruptcy.
LaCena, Chamblins and the like are the future of DT Jax, not Publix, Trader Joe's or Whole Foods.
The sooner that is realized, the better.
DT has a very long way to go before national chain stores will be interested. The only reason drugstores are the exception is 1) Shands=Hospital Walgreens/CVS=pharmacy and 2) high traffic counts on State/Union with no competition nearby.
Quote from: chipwich on March 25, 2011, 12:29:19 PM
From what I heard on the grape vine. The Whole Foods in Mandarin is their worst performing store in the country. I cannot verify it at this time.
That location is just terrible (access stinks). They should have opened at SJTC when they had the chance.
I can't say for sure it is their worst performing store but it definitely is performing poorly. I started a thread on here some time ago about how poorly it has done. They have had to toss alot of product because they can't sell by the expiration date. There have been times they have had empty shelves because they are not restocking their inventory. They have also cut back on alot of ready to eat items because of poor sales. It is a shame because I love Whole Foods. But I agree the location is awful.
+1, Vic.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 25, 2011, 12:31:55 PM
The sooner the thoughts of getting national retailers (other than a drugstore) in either DT or Springfield are forgotten, the sooner a real revitilization can begin.
Only after a respectable number of locally owned businesses have found success, will you see any GENUINE interest by the nationals.
If Borders was truly interested in Springfield, that goes a long way toward explaining why they are in bankruptcy.
LaCena, Chamblins and the like are the future of DT Jax, not Publix, Trader Joe's or Whole Foods.
The sooner that is realized, the better.
DT has a very long way to go before national chain stores will be interested. The only reason drugstores are the exception is 1) Shands=Hospital Walgreens/CVS=pharmacy and 2) high traffic counts on State/Union with no competition nearby.
Exactly. Most retail growth in Springfield and DT will have to come organically as it has in recent years.
Most people involved in these areas are aware of that, but it is very difficult to make a market with an awful lending situation and unreasonable demands/expectations from property owners.
I was only speaking of the overall Jax market regarding Trader Joes....
and comparing the viability of Trader Joes vs. Whole Foods
I've never been inside of an ALDI's.....
they just announced the closing of the Buckhead Triangle's Borders, that was pretty much what I would have considered a flagship store
Quote from: vicupstate on March 25, 2011, 12:31:55 PM
The sooner the thoughts of getting national retailers (other than a drugstore) in either DT or Springfield are forgotten, the sooner a real revitilization can begin.
Only after a respectable number of locally owned businesses have found success, will you see any GENUINE interest by the nationals.
If Borders was truly interested in Springfield, that goes a long way toward explaining why they are in bankruptcy.
LaCena, Chamblins and the like are the future of DT Jax, not Publix, Trader Joe's or Whole Foods.
The sooner that is realized, the better.
DT has a very long way to go before national chain stores will be interested. The only reason drugstores are the exception is 1) Shands=Hospital Walgreens/CVS=pharmacy and 2) high traffic counts on State/Union with no competition nearby.
You really do raise a good point that I didn't realize.
I only fear that once those small awesome business are up and running, then the national retailers comes in to kill them off.-Josh
Speaking of Walgreens and CVS, I used to do site layouts for them as well. Once an area meets their demographic requirements, they prefer locating at signalized intersections along heavy volume corridors. So without a doubt, this is an ideal location for either one of them, considering neither has a presence in the downtown area.
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 01:20:37 PM
The national chains never get the chance, Josh. They are killed by the local policies first.
Downtown Parking enforcement, homeless policies, and traffic control, combined with real estate speculators, neighborhood boycotts, and code enforcement harrassment have managed to kill the small shops before any chains would ever want to open.
Downtown's policies have a larger impact on smaller chains than larger ones like CVS, Publix, Target, etc. When they come in, if working with a development firm, that firm typically purchases a parcel of property and designs it to the specifications of the anchors and tenants they desire. For example, the fact that the Park View parking garage is being preserved, means they will have a ton of dedicated parking already in place to serve them (something they require and something that the landing doesn't have). Thus, they won't be impacted by regulations like parking enforcement that have a tendancy to kill off smaller businesses.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2011, 12:38:42 PM
+1, Vic.
I see your +1 and raise you a +9!
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 12:44:22 PM
Borders is a national chain that originated in the Midwest, that like all media based retailers is suffering from online media distribution. between readers, Ipads and the general economy, the media content available online will eventually destroy the major book retailers as we now know them.
It has nothing to do with their Malthusian Expansion strategy.
Borders didn't go bankrupt because of online media distribution, they went bankrupt because they were a poorly run company. Its been poorly run for nearly 2 decades. I'd dare say once Kmart touched it, it was doomed. And its been ready to fail since. Nearly half of Barnes and Nobles stores are college bookstores, putting them in a better position to weather a tough economy as well as the growth of online content. Also, their website and in-store cafes are better. And, it follows from their continued existence, they are better managed.
Not sure I get the connection to Malthus regarding vic's statement.
The same goes for Best Buy and Circuit City. Both were experiencing the same strains, but one is a well run company and one was a poorly run company. And Circuit City's problems were a direct result of their poorly executed expansion.
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 12:44:22 PM
Yes you are correct, there is a hospital (with three existing pharmacies, incidentally) in one of the areas, and a high traffic count on the corner or Main and Union. Are you under the thunderously shortsighted impression that those two demographic details cease existing once you build a Walgreens?
I believe his main point about the success at State/Union was the lack of competition. So that business would be hurt by another pharmacy (I'm not saying it couldn't support them though, because I don't know).
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 02:05:50 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2011, 01:38:57 PM
Downtown's policies have a larger impact on smaller chains than larger ones like CVS, Publix, Target, etc. When they come in, if working with a development firm, that firm typically purchases a parcel of property and designs it to the specifications of the anchors and tenants they desire. For example, the fact that the Park View parking garage is being preserved, means they will have a ton of dedicated parking already in place to serve them (something they require and something that the landing doesn't have). Thus, they won't be impacted by regulations like parking enforcement that have a tendancy to kill off smaller businesses.
+1
ditto!
I've seen Charleston's Downtown (King Street) morph from utter abandonment to the Rodeo Drive of South Carolina. It occurred in stages, with the Local merchants proving the market before the national chains came in and drove rents to Chicago-Loop levels. The locals that BOUGHT early, stayed and prospered, the ones that LEASED got priced out of their buildings and had to move on.
I have been a part of efforts to recruit a grocer to DT Columbia that went nowhere for years, even though USC was nearby with 20,000+ students, not to mention tens of thousands of office workers. Only a ratty Food Lion (think the Market Street Winn-Dixie of 5 years ago) was in place to serve a 5-7 square mile urban core.
Finally, Publix filled the void, but only with a big subsidy from the city.
Greenville's DT is quite successsful and has a Publix and a Staples and a mid-sized regional retail store. An urban storefront CVS is now under construction. All of that came after 25 years of ONLY locals powering DT revitilization.
Yet, even with that DT environment, both Whole Foods and Trader Joe's built at Greenville's equivalent to SJTC. They must have known what they were doing, because both are doing very well.
National chains are not 'pioneers', quite the opposite. They take their cues from each other and stay pretty close to their M.O. demographics. I've heard it from people in the business, and I have seen it happen just that way in several cities.
Such is the basis for my opinions on this subject.
And yes, Josh, as I mentioned above, the national's will drive out the locals that LEASE (rather than OWN) their locations. Once the market is PROVEN, and DT is obviously fertile ground (thanks to the local's entreprenurial efforts), the national's will rush in.
Charleston's King Street is a prime example of that. Uptown Charlotte is fast becoming another.
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2011, 03:13:47 PM
Well, PeeJay, considering the KMart hasnt owned Borders since 1995, (16 years ago) http://www.borders.com/online/store/BGIView_bgiabouthistory , it seems unlikely that KMart managed it badly for the past two decades.
In the following link, you will see that the industry itself cites online competition and the rise of 'readers' as part of the reason for the decline, exactly as I detailed.
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/borders-files-for-bankruptcy/
Yes, KMart hasn't owned it in 16 years, hence why I said "touched it" and not "bought and held it until it went bankrupt." It was just a death touch. When KMart merged Borders (a successful company) with Walden (a failing company) they lost most of the Borders management. When that happened, a good company turned into a bad company, and their performance over the subsequent decade and a half after KMart spun them off bears this out.
Maybe even if I said "bought it" and didn't explicitly state that they later spun it off, you'd have an argument, but I think the intention of "touched" is fairly clear - it doesn't sound very permanent. Regardless of KMart's involvement, Borders as a business was not well run after 1992.
All the things you highlight in the article demonstrate how Borders was poorly managed in relation to B&N, Amazon, and others. So I stand by my statement that they went bankrupt because they were poorly managed. If every single physical storefront chain went bankrupt when they started competing with online shops, you'd be absolutely correct. But there are plenty still around, and some of them have adapted to online sales. So it stands to reason that some (those not bankrupt) are doing something that the others (the bankrupt) are not. Hell, they stocked 6 different e-reading devices (dumb and confusing) rather than putting out one and pushing it like mad (smart)? They deserve bankruptcy for that reason alone? The e-reader itself was a fairly obvious evolution for books, why didn't Borders figure that out and produce it first? Because they were poorly run. They didn't produce one at all, or even team up with a company to offer a signature device.
Video didn't kill the radio star. There are still radio stars. Borders (now I'm being metaphorical) was never one of them.
This has gone on a tangent. Vic's original assertion that you refuted was basically that Borders was dumb, and that's why they're bankrupt. I think that's a fair thing to say.
....sign of the times ....
White's Bookstores saw the "writing on the wall" and changed their format to a store with less books and more home accessories, changed the name to Cowford Traders too.
Any word on anything happening on the site yet?
Yeah man it looks like there's going to be a walgreens for sure and maybe other stuff too
Awesome news ! :)
I hope de-construction, then re-construction, starts soon.
definitely.. the sooner the better :)
They've already broken ground. Demo work is taking place now.
sweet.. I thought I read Asbestos removal was on-going at present?
That's a part of the demo phase in my book.
Has anyone heard any more news about that the BP station that was going to be built a block up from the parkview?
This development should help bridge the gap between the urban core and Springfield. It will draw FSCJ students along with Springfield and Northbank residents. Maybe this will also push the BP station to break ground.
Starbucks with the drive thru they love. I would prefer a Dunkin Donuts.
+1
Starbucks already closed 11E, and now they are closing The Landing store. Do you really think they would locate there? Maybe...the traffic count is way better, but with two failed stores already downtown, I wonder.
I do not believe either of them failed. The first came as a mass closing of Starbucks that had multiple stores close together and the other came when they felt they were having the rent unfairly raised.(IMO) I would not be surprised at all if in closing the landing site they had an alternate in mind especially if it allowed them to add a drive thru. * All conjecture as I have no inside info.
No offense to Starbucks lovers, but I would think a Dunkin would also work there. :)
I would prefer a Dunkin Donuts.
That or Krispy Kreme.. but Dunkin would be my first choice. :)
Ditto, Timkin. Good point about Starbucks, JeffreyS. I forgot both those points. Although, I still imagine a SB on the corner of Main and State would get far more drive-in traffic than either downtown SB ever got in foot traffic.
Update:QuoteSunday notebook: No sale yet for old Park View Inn lot
In case you're wondering what's going on with the old Park View Inn downtown, or what's left of it, the answer is not much. Tyler Saldutti of Prime Realty said he had a contract on the property from a group that wanted to build affordable apartments on the site at State and Main streets.
But that fell through.
He said the original plan was for a 24-hour pharmacy and a boutique grocery, but that didn't happen. He said there's been interest from convenience stores and fast food restaurants, but there's nothing signed yet.
In the meantime, Colliers International has taken over the listing.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400580/roger-bull/2013-09-01/sunday-notebook-no-sale-yet-old-park-view-inn-lot
What is the environmental story with that site?
The city operated a coal gasification plant on the site a century ago.
QuoteThe Superfund label would put the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in charge of deciding how to repair environmental damage around a site east of Main Street, where coal was converted into natural gas, starting in the 19th century.
The ground there contains coal tar, a cancer-causing material thought to have contaminated ground water entering the creek.
The full extent of the pollution isn't clear. The affected area includes vacant commercial buildings south of the creek and part of the park on the creek's north bank.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-22/story/toxic_past_haunts_future_of_jacksonvilles_hogans_creek#ixzz2de8Yiiwi
It is my understanding that the gas plant was privately owned and that it has not been possible to trace the original owner (or matters to that effect). If they could be traced or their "successors" then they could be held responsible for a clean up.
It is interesting - in the early 1900s a man named Segui drowned in Confederate park, which at that time was mostly deep cypress ponds, when they pulled him out of the filthy water (with a boat hook) he was covered in a black slimy grease. If this grease was the by product of the gasification plant (creosote) then that could explain why the great fire was able to cross the "creek" at Hammatt's mill, on the north side just west of Main. With that intense heat it seems the water would "burn".
Lakelander, I thought I read on this site that the environmental issues were all made up to cause problems for the owner?
I believe Stephendare mentioned that in a discussion on this topic a few years back. He'd have to explain his reasoning though because there was definitely a coal tar/gasification plant on site around 1900. I have a picture of it from the Great Fire of 1901. Surprisingly, it didn't burn down.
Quote from: Demosthenes on September 01, 2013, 11:47:39 AM
Lakelander, I thought I read on this site that the environmental issues were all made up to cause problems for the owner?
Not necesarily made up, but SPAR did get the brilliant idea to call the EPA trying to thwart VanWinkel, which actually resulted in the whole neighborhood being slapped with hazard warnings instead of just this one property. Then pretended like they had no idea how it happened.
I thought the tags were related to ash from the Cleveland St incinerators, and stemmed from a law suit in the 90s that had the Feds requiring Jax to clean up of all ash sites? How is that related to this gasification plant?
Quote from: Demosthenes on September 02, 2013, 12:28:58 PM
I thought the tags were related to ash from the Cleveland St incinerators, and stemmed from a law suit in the 90s that had the Feds requiring Jax to clean up of all ash sites? How is that related to this gasification plant?
Springfield had been off the radar until SPAR called the EPA, the ash-as-fertilizer mess wasn't known in the 90s. But then again you're not actually asking a question are you.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 01, 2013, 07:47:33 AM
Update:
QuoteSunday notebook: No sale yet for old Park View Inn lot
In case you're wondering what's going on with the old Park View Inn downtown, or what's left of it, the answer is not much. Tyler Saldutti of Prime Realty said he had a contract on the property from a group that wanted to build affordable apartments on the site at State and Main streets.
But that fell through.
He said the original plan was for a 24-hour pharmacy and a boutique grocery, but that didn't happen. He said there's been interest from convenience stores and fast food restaurants, but there's nothing signed yet.
In the meantime, Colliers International has taken over the listing.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400580/roger-bull/2013-09-01/sunday-notebook-no-sale-yet-old-park-view-inn-lot
Affordable apartments will never happen Downtown, nor will additional apartments in general any time soon. The city doesn't want people that need "affordable" anything anywhere near DT, nor any more residents in general.
After driving by this place a few times with our Uber driver coming back from the beach. What is the story with this ugly eye sore of downtown? The Public/Private partnership never materialized?