An Empty Feeling: Inside The Walls Of Downtown
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1059205142_EW86w-M.jpg)
Ever wonder why you're the only one walking down streets that were once full of life and energy around the clock? We tend to talk a great deal about revitalizing downtown, but the result of our actions and priorities over the years show another story. Metro Jacksonville presents a photo tour of the morbid scene left behind inside the walls of Downtown Jacksonville as corporate tenants continue to flee the city's once proud urban core.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-oct-an-empty-feeling-inside-the-walls-of-downtown
So what needs to happen?
I've attended 3 DVI Board meetings.
Walkable- Block by block.
Promised 680' Promised Downtown Public Pier- Pier by Pier.
I'm am asking that the Board of DVI sponsor a resolution to use the pier for Public Access and Economic opportunity. The Pier is just outside the land boundry of DVI
Can the boundry of DVI be extended to include the 680' Promised Downtown Public Pier?
That is another upcoming city council and mayoral campaign issue question.
I'd say YES.
Don Redman is the city council representative that just came on board with DVI.
At the political HobNob I discussed this issue with Jack Webb and Redman. A noticed meeting on the issue was supposed to have been scheduled but then was cancelled.
The Pier is in Dist.7 councilman Gaffney and he hasn't done a thing.
Go back to the Threads about the river and this explanation of the exodus from Downtown with the banking and Insurance businesses.
There is no way in heck that I would live Downtown if the elected legislative representatives are going to continue restrictive pieces of legislation that won't allow you to Access, Promote and Celebrate our St. Johns River our American Heritage River.
What needs to happen? Compact clustering of uses, pedestrian scale connectivity and better ground level integration between buildings and the street. DT has a ton of problems but whatever solution someone cooks up has to have these three things as the central components.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2010, 06:48:02 AM
What needs to happen? Compact clustering of uses, pedestrian scale connectivity and better ground level integration between buildings and the street. DT has a ton of problems but whatever solution someone cooks up has to have these three things as the central components.
Where are these 3 things happening in Duval county on the river, tributaries,etc that capture instead of buildings and street just substitute buildings and the river.
This should also be a central component and it was highlighted in a report for Downtown Vision by Chan Krieger and Assosciates. Connect the Northbank and Southbank.
Not only have businesses moved to the Southside, but as the article has noted, many have left the state.
The First Union and NationsBank gobble-ups hurt almost every city on the east coast....but were a boon to Charlotte...now with First Union/Wachovia becoming Wells Fargo even Charlotte is feeling the effects.
Jax just needs more people in it. Not enough people there.
Quote from: Noone on October 27, 2010, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2010, 06:48:02 AM
What needs to happen? Compact clustering of uses, pedestrian scale connectivity and better ground level integration between buildings and the street. DT has a ton of problems but whatever solution someone cooks up has to have these three things as the central components.
Where are these 3 things happening in Duval county on the river, tributaries,etc that capture instead of buildings and street just substitute buildings and the river.
This should also be a central component and it was highlighted in a report for Downtown Vision by Chan Krieger and Assosciates. Connect the Northbank and Southbank.
Pedestrian level vibrancy is achieved in spots where multiple pedestrian scale activities can take place. Thus, the focus of pedestrian scale connectivity, clustering and complementing activities can't focus on one use over another. In DT, the heart (centered around Laura Street) is area most suitable to build upon. There you have a mix of complementing uses (entertainment, residential, office, culture, recreation, etc.) already in place. So at the "CBD pedestrian scale level" we need to find ways to better utilize existing assets to stimulate additional foot traffic, which stimulates additional infill development. On an urban core level, we need to look at how to better take advantage existing assets through connectivity (mass transit, parks, waterways, etc.) in an effort to stimulate infill clustering and complementing uses. If we can do these two things, over time the isolation between downtown and adjacent walkable districts will disappear. At that point, a Brooklyn becomes something like Back Bay is to Boston's CBD. By foot, you don't realize you've changed districts (see images below).
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7345-aerial_boston.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/boston/DCP_5087.jpg)
The Boston Common can be clearly seen in this view from the Prudential Observation Deck. Like Springfield's chain of parks, the Common is bordered by several inner city neighborhoods. Downtown can be seen in the background, Beacon Hill to the left and Back Bay at the bottom of the graphic.
Quote from: Coolyfett on October 27, 2010, 08:33:31 AM
Jax just needs more people in it. Not enough people there.
Sure, downtown needs more people. However, the reality is that its not going to get them anytime soon. Thus, the focus in regards to residential, should be connectivity between it and the densely populated residential districts adjacent to it. Instead of worrying about how to subsidize and attract 10,000 residents in the Northbank, spend less money by better utilizing the +100,000 that already live within a 3 mile radius (or so) around it.
Take a look at the Boston MBTA TRANSIT maps. Note that Downtown is fed from all 3 directions by an intense network of buses... BUT LOOK CLOSER... The buses turn back at transfer stations in the burbs, 7-routes at FIELDS CORNER, 12-routes at FOREST HILLS and 9-routes at WELLINGTON. They could have laid out the bus routes right alongside the railroad on US - 1 and duplicated the whole damn rail system, but they didn't. In fact they use a system of transfers where the bus routes no longer go downtown. Much better use of the bus and rail system has allowed the downtown to boom with people rather then fume spewing transit machines.
OCKLAWAHA
Hmmmm......Are you trying to say the MBTA knows something that JTA doesn't?
You dont say!
I say focus on one small area at a time. Build out from the Landing. It is silly to think that any commercial buildings will be built any time soon with so much vacancy in buildings already. We need to work with the building leasers to get offices in there. The city then needs real solutions to parking issues. Almost every company that ahs left said parking was a major factor in them leaving. Most companies compensate their employees parking downtown. That costs a lot of money. They can go to the Southside and there are shimmering islands of asphalt as far as the eye can see of free parking. There has to be a incentive for a company to relocate downtown. Maybe foucus on smaller companies for now and work on getting all these offices rented. It will take time. Slow and steady until the economy starts to rebound again.
blame FBC
Jacksonville has no power base. Our political clout in Tallahassee has been lost to those in Orlando and South Florida. The local power base has been more concerned about social justice than commercial growth. Ideologies have driven out the vibrancy of the once popular downtown lifestyle.
Intensives create opportunities and investment. Our political leaders have no intention of granting incentives to corporate investment unless it is tied to some kind of unrealistic social payback. Corporate America will bring opportunities to Jacksonville that are directly related to their corporate mission. From that point once the corporation is feeding the streets with jobs and ancillary businesses those with ideological aspirations have the tools to improve social injustices.
Jacksonville is NOT corporate friendly. Jacksonville must visualize itself as a field barren and desolate which can be developed by a board of community planners that ARE NOT subject to political leadership. The Board of Planners create a consensus of what is the best option for Jacksonville and it is then presented to the people of Jacksonville under a referendum. I am POSITIVE that the people of Jacksonville will FUND a clean plan of attack to revitalize their city.
blame FBC! haha that is funny. I thought it was JTA's fault all the corporations were fleeing Downtown.
QuoteThe Boston Common can be clearly seen in this view from the Prudential Observation Deck. Like Springfield's chain of parks, the Common is bordered by several inner city neighborhoods. Downtown can be seen in the background, Beacon Hill to the left and Back Bay at the bottom of the graphic.
Interesting
I got bored last night and started organizing photos on my computer and happened across some Boston pics taken from that same Prudential Building and was imagining that same kind of connectivity transformation happening in Jax.
Quote from: SkipnStones on October 27, 2010, 10:20:04 AM
The local power base has been more concerned about social justice than commercial growth.
Huh? The local power base has been concerned with enriching suburban landowners and developers. I don't see how "social justice" flows from that.
I'm gonna have to side /w Ock on this one. Coming from Chicago a few years back (which I regret almost every day I'm here, not because of the people, but because of the political climate and general disdain the city has shown for itself on a grand scale), and using the "L" all the time to get to and from work, never owning a vehicle, and monthly paying for a $75 - $85 pass for unlimited transportation that ran most of the day and night. I really believe we need better public transportation in this city. I realize it's a daunting task due to the general land mass of the city, but that right there is the reason you should be working towards it.
The "Loop" of Chicago is the 1.16 square miles of area, and it only has approx. 16k people living there full time. Yes, I realize it's considered "the second largest commercial business district in the United States, after New York City's Midtown Manhattan", according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Loop#Economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Loop#Economy). Sounds a little bit like our downtown, short of the second largest commercial area. It's the fact that so many people come in and out of downtown to work on a daily basis, coming from as far away as Indiana and the far north and west suburbs (approx. 1 - 1 1/2 hours by public transportation). We need to turn downtown into an accessible entity that can be treated as the center of a wheel, and build up the neighborhoods around it.
The way that Jacksonville is set up makes this a very reasonable request, we already have numerous neighborhoods around downtown with their own identity. Downtown already has the buildings and amenities needed to maintain a commercial presence. We just need to improve the ability to access downtown. A train line would work wonderfully even if it needed to be elevated like the skyway, or having a train that ran to the downtown bus station /w connecting buses to various points downtown. And I know there is a prevalent amount of homeless downtown and near the bus station, but I can guarantee you, increase the flow of people into downtown through a train to bus system and you'll see a much more visible police presence in that area, and a diminished amount of homeless.
Ok, that's my rant and suggestions.
Quote from: JaxDiablo on October 27, 2010, 11:27:09 AM
Ok, that's my rant and suggestions.
Suggestions???????? We'll have none of those here, thank you. ;)
Return to its former glory? It ain't gonna happen, not in our lifetime and possibly not in the future after we're gone either! Change, change, change, in the leaders we choose and the attitude of the leadership, government and citizens is what's needed in order for downtown to even begin to think about returning to its former glory (whatever that was). Why can't we just move ahead with a new way of thinking, make downtown successful, and quit trying to return it to its former glory?
"HU"
Has anyone been to the Jacksonville Landing food court recently? Half of the spots are vacant it seems.
What happened tufsu?
You were swearing up and down there was no endemic vacancy problem just a couple months ago...
Quote from: JaxDiablo on October 27, 2010, 11:27:09 AM
I'm gonna have to side /w Ock on this one. Coming from Chicago a few years back (which I regret almost every day I'm here, not because of the people, but because of the political climate and general disdain the city has shown for itself on a grand scale), and using the "L" all the time to get to and from work, never owning a vehicle, and monthly paying for a $75 - $85 pass for unlimited transportation that ran most of the day and night. I really believe we need better public transportation in this city. I realize it's a daunting task due to the general land mass of the city, but that right there is the reason you should be working towards it.
The "Loop" of Chicago is the 1.16 square miles of area, and it only has approx. 16k people living there full time. Yes, I realize it's considered "the second largest commercial business district in the United States, after New York City's Midtown Manhattan", according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Loop#Economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Loop#Economy). Sounds a little bit like our downtown, short of the second largest commercial area. It's the fact that so many people come in and out of downtown to work on a daily basis, coming from as far away as Indiana and the far north and west suburbs (approx. 1 - 1 1/2 hours by public transportation). We need to turn downtown into an accessible entity that can be treated as the center of a wheel, and build up the neighborhoods around it.
The way that Jacksonville is set up makes this a very reasonable request, we already have numerous neighborhoods around downtown with their own identity. Downtown already has the buildings and amenities needed to maintain a commercial presence. We just need to improve the ability to access downtown. A train line would work wonderfully even if it needed to be elevated like the skyway, or having a train that ran to the downtown bus station /w connecting buses to various points downtown. And I know there is a prevalent amount of homeless downtown and near the bus station, but I can guarantee you, increase the flow of people into downtown through a train to bus system and you'll see a much more visible police presence in that area, and a diminished amount of homeless.
Ok, that's my rant and suggestions.
I think most people here would be pretty much with you on all of this.
JaxDiablo, I am right along side you. In Chicago, you find people willing to trade their time for a car and reduced transportation expenses. Certainly, using a bus or train takes longer (usually) than driving. (It takes me about the same amount of time to go equal distance here as it did in Chicago, but would be a 15 minute drive...)
Aside from the challenges with lack of vision at JTA, how do we convince Jacksonville's commuters increased travel time on public transit is worthwhile?
This is depressing. If this is the case, why are rents not dirt cheap in these buildings? Oh yeah, because they're positive that Goldman Sachs is going to relocate all of their staff to downtown Jax and pay top dollar. I forgot.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 27, 2010, 01:40:26 PM
This is depressing. If this is the case, why are rents not dirt cheap in these buildings? Oh yeah, because they're positive that Goldman Sachs is going to relocate all of their staff to downtown Jax and pay top dollar. I forgot.
Jacksonville is very strange in that regard. It seems landlords are unwilling to negotiate lower rents or property improvements, despite the fact that opening a business downtown nowadays is a lot like opening a snow cone hut in the middle of a desert.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 27, 2010, 01:39:37 PM
Aside from the challenges with lack of vision at JTA, how do we convince Jacksonville's commuters increased travel time on public transit is worthwhile?
I'll happily answer this at least coming from my own personal experiences and opinions.
I think numerous things could be done to promote this. Have the city buy up the majority of the land which is used for the questionable parking lots and use them for mini-bus depots. We already know they're in prime locations around downtown, why not use them to make it more convenient than having to drive, and potentially get a ticket instead of paying $1.75 to get to work each day or by using a monthly pass.
Promote the potential swelling of jobs that it would generate. Drivers, maintenance, mechanics, various office people for the management of the hubs/depots. Also take into account (if I'm not mistaken), we have or had a motor vehicle production plant in the Jacksonville area. Why not make this a win/win. Entice a bus building company to move into the building, build our fleet of buses, and then the company should get a huge tax breaks to bring all those jobs to jax, and then it takes care of our buses as well.
They're starting to put bus lanes in around Jacksonville and my area on the west side. If they did something like that downtown they could kill one side of the lane they use for parking downtown. Use it for a bus lane, and we could tout the fact that it's shorter travel time since people would have a dedicated lane for just their mode of transportation to work.
I'm starting to sound like the Ock of mass transit... lol
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 27, 2010, 12:05:18 PM
What happened tufsu?
You were swearing up and down there was no endemic vacancy problem just a couple months ago...
not quite...in fact, I surmised at the time that downtown may have experienced as much as a 25% drop in total workers since 2009, when there were an estimated 18,000 in the northbank core.
but perhaps you should read what Jim Bailey said the other night....something about it not being just a downtown problem and that vacancy is up all over town (and the country for that matter).
also, I still haven't found any data supporting your claim of only 7,000 people working downtown.
stephendare
Today at 08:37:49 AM
How do you go from 81 thousand full time workers in the compact downtown of 1981 to 7 or 8 thousand in 2010...And weve spent billions of dollars to do it.
WOW... thats amazing. And it's not like the industries that were here collapsed, like in Detroit... they just moved on to greener pastures. Just moved here, still wrapping my head around this city. Are there any good histories you'd recommend - of the urban planning decisions made?
I'm sure there's a complicated list of how this all happened. Part of me wonders if the construction of new roads, and incorporation of all of the county into the metro area spread the population too thin, leading to a loss of critical mass in the center. I also wonder if part of the move to Southside is flight from some of the predominantly african american neighborhoods that also have higher crime rates. Still not quite sure where those are, but biking around the Shands area I have noticed the neighborhood looks a bit rough, and have had some interesting interactions as I ride from riverside north towards Rt. 10.
Anyways, curious to learn more. Do you guys ever meet up at a coffee shop or anything to discuss?
you can usually find some affable and reasonably knowledgable conversationalists at three layers (which is one ov the reasons you'll never see me there).
These are all great Ideas!! Its just the city council is deaf!
One thing thats needs to be abolished is the stupid liquor license raffle..Its soo stuupid! Get rid of that, make it easier for restaurants bars and so on to come downtown to do business..And get the damn First baptist out of the city council..Alot of those vacant buildings could be great condos and apartments..Build at street level first do shops and such, give a small business tax break and make it more safe and reliable you will then have a great downtown..Its frickin simple..But the people who run the show are deaf !
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2010, 08:38:20 AM
Quote from: Coolyfett on October 27, 2010, 08:33:31 AM
Jax just needs more people in it. Not enough people there.
Sure, downtown needs more people. However, the reality is that its not going to get them anytime soon. Thus, the focus in regards to residential, should be connectivity between it and the densely populated residential districts adjacent to it. Instead of worrying about how to subsidize and attract 10,000 residents in the Northbank, spend less money by better utilizing the +100,000 that already live within a 3 mile radius (or so) around it.
So what needs to happen next?
Lake, With all due respect the connectivity by using the 680' Downtown Public Pier wll achieve the connectivity that you want.
Can you come up with a city that uses the water and not the land for the connectivity?
Again if you use containers and the Fred Kent power of 10 you will create that dense cluster.
Bring back the floating dock of Super Bowl XXXIX
The containers are donated.
Sportsmans container- sell fresh crabs. Fish, bait
-shuffleboard, checker and chess boards. etc.
Arts container- Rotate with RAM
Exercise container- Tie in with YMCA and other gyms downtown
Food container-
District 7 container
Music container
Pet container
Pick an idea for another.
We are a Port City.
Quote from: Noone on October 28, 2010, 06:29:13 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2010, 08:38:20 AM
Quote from: Coolyfett on October 27, 2010, 08:33:31 AM
Jax just needs more people in it. Not enough people there.
Sure, downtown needs more people. However, the reality is that its not going to get them anytime soon. Thus, the focus in regards to residential, should be connectivity between it and the densely populated residential districts adjacent to it. Instead of worrying about how to subsidize and attract 10,000 residents in the Northbank, spend less money by better utilizing the +100,000 that already live within a 3 mile radius (or so) around it.
So what needs to happen next?
Lake, With all due respect the connectivity by using the 680' Downtown Public Pier wll achieve the connectivity that you want.
While the public pier would be a great project, it will not achieve the connectivity and vibrancy people want for downtown, due to the location. It can be a great space in and of itself but connectivity is also driven by the uses surrounding it. Unfortunately, in the case of the Shipyards, the uses surrounding it (Berkman skeleton, county jail and Maxwell House plant) kill pedestrian level synergy, walkability and urban connectivity. For example, when people say they want a vibrant walkable downtown, this is the type of scene they envision:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818143_CyjQb-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/593548771_7CPvq-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968215113_2F4bW-M.jpg)
Not only would you have direct access to the river and green space, that scene would also be clustered with residential, dining, entertainment, office and an assortment of other uses basically right on top of each other. Water aside, take a look at the aerials of downtown Indianapolis and Jacksonville below.
Indianapolis
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3465-indianapolis.jpg)
Jacksonville
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3466-jacksonville.jpg)
Pedestrian scale connectivity at the heart with building/mixed use density and clustering is why downtown Indianapolis looks like this at street level.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570696448_tULN3-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570696491_UjWRD-M.jpg)
Being the exact opposite (sprawled out urban uses) is why downtown Jacksonville looks like this at street level.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1059205533_VFeYq-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/875176466_4PsMk-M.jpg)
QuoteCan you come up with a city that uses the water and not the land for the connectivity?
No, not in America. However, I'm not sure its a good idea to ignore land. The overall goal should be able to have ultimate connectivity with both. Something as simple as opening the Landing to visually connect the river with Laura Street would be an example of pulling land and water together within a compact urban setting in where the public space (the central courtyard) would have both an inner/outer square and opportunity to reach out with its surroundings like an octopus.
7. The Inner Square & the Outer Square
Visionary park planner Frederick Law Olmsted's idea of the "inner park" and the "outer park" is just as relevant today as it was over 100 years ago. The streets and sidewalks around a square greatly affect its accessibility and use, as do the buildings that surround it. Imagine a square fronted on each side by 15-foot blank walls -- that is the worst-case scenario for the outer square. Then imagine that same square situated next to a public library: the library doors open right onto the square; people sit outside and read on the steps; maybe the children's reading room has an outdoor space right on the square, or even a bookstore and cafe. An active, welcoming outer square is essential to the well-being of the inner square.
8. Reaching Out Like an Octopus
Just as important as the edge of a square is the way that streets, sidewalks and ground floors of adjacent buildings lead into it. Like the tentacles of an octopus extending into the surrounding neighborhood, the influence of a good square (such as Union Square in New York) starts at least a block away. Vehicles slow down, walking becomes more enjoyable, and pedestrian traffic increases. Elements within the square are visible from a distance, and the ground floor activity of buildings entices pedestrians to move toward the square.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-dec-ten-principles-for-creating-successful-squaresQuoteAgain if you use containers and the Fred Kent power of 10 you will create that dense cluster.
Bring back the floating dock of Super Bowl XXXIX
The containers are donated.
Sportsmans container- sell fresh crabs. Fish, bait
-shuffleboard, checker and chess boards. etc.
Arts container- Rotate with RAM
Exercise container- Tie in with YMCA and other gyms downtown
Food container-
District 7 container
Music container
Pet container
Pick an idea for another.
We are a Port City.
These things would make the pier a great place in and of itself. However, in terms of downtown walkability, synergy and vibrancy, whats located directly adjacent to a space (in this case, the pier) is just as important as what goes into the space itself. When talking about urban walkability and pedestrian scale interaction, if true vibrancy is to occur, this concept will have to be applied to all uses.
Lake, Your killing me. lol
I was Downtown for the Navy weekend. Took some pics. Need to get them posted. But the point is I'm standing next to Berkman and there are just boat after boat after boat going straight through Downtown to get a spot to watch the Blue Angels from the water.
Capture this market. The pier can help achieve that.
Its a single. Not a home run.
I think this is one of the biggest city council and mayoral campaign issues for the spring election.
Who is going to MAKE IT HAPPEN?
I was on the riverfront as well and took a couple of images myself. I walked the riverwalk from Liberty to Hogan. The highest concentration of activity took place between the Hyatt and the Landing. That's a part of the core area I described above. If you can capture water based activity within your dense cluster of mixed land uses, you'll hit a triple or inside the parker instead of a single. With that said, I'm not saying the pier is not important or that it should not be done. I'm a huge fan.
This sounds aweful but if find the hyper conservative ideas that run rampid in this cities history. I see that not until that changes will the city's downtown change. The church that runs this area is actually it's downfall. I go to other minor cities and wish our downtown was like them...we dont even match a small town downtown...seeing this and then looking at the amount spent on the courthouse is rediculous...unless the republicans somehow come to see the light of day this is not going to stop and we'll continue to be the laughing stock of the united states...they know us in england as close minded and lost...i could'nt believe i hear that in a pub in london..lol..how embarrassing.
while i'm all kinds ov keen to blame things on republicans, not all ov downtown's problems are as directly or simply political as all that.
i agree with you about the church, though. people have been talking about how they provide so many services that would otherwise be lacking, but they provide those services for people in the church. i'm not saying paid members only, but certainly only for people who are interested in putting up with their dogmatic nonsense. those services don't do anyöne who, because ov religion or a basic sense ov ethics, won't set foot in the church. their highly-touted private security, for instance, is just that: private. it really only serves to further isolate them, and it kind ov makes our downtown look like something out ov a gibson novel, where the rich and elite pay for protection and the rest ov us are hosed.
I love the exclusive mind-set of the "Blame The Church" crowd... Fact is that one church brings more people downtown then probably anything else on a regular day to day basis. That we haven't figured out how to capitalize on this says a lot more about "us," then it does about "them." If we could have a dozen FIRST BAPTIST CHURCHES downtown, well... can you imagine the volume of people? The Christian commercialism of giant chain book, clothing, music, health food and other stores would be incredible.
Ah ha! but that hasn't happened. Why? Because we "the city" and it's population have not seen fit to even attempt to revive downtown, in part, on the success of this churches crowds. Take that Laura Street project all the way up to STATE STREET, and develop storefronts... Oop's I almost forgot, the new annex and other sundry buildings no longer have any.
Does anyone really think a weekly meeting of 10,000 Hell's Angel's or Paleontologist's for that matter would be any different if the business community continues to stagnate?
OCKLAWAHA
paying members of the church? where do you guys get this stuff from? it is almost laughable.
Quote from: stephendare on October 28, 2010, 11:15:58 AM
I have never. not even once, had to deal with the church obstructing anything.
ov course not, love. you're a
member. i never said it actually had anything to do with religion or baptist morality. it's all an old boys club. you're either in it, or you're not.
three cheers for the south.
Thank you, Stephen, for standing up to some of the rather silly stereotypes that are popping up in this thread.
All of us, regardless of faith or political orientation, should work together on how churches (particularly FBC due to its behemoth size and position as a potential barrier if not integrated into downtown) and downtown can be better integrated just as Ocklawaha mentioned. Something that brings that many people downtown can be a great asset to downtown with the proper outreach and coordination. Especially as the pastor sounds like he's willing and enthusiastic about being part of a downtown renaissance.
There are people of every political and belief background on this board who are equally passionate about core revival and equally willing to work toward the same goals. Random broad-brush stereotypes get us nowhere. They encourage a focus on the differences in our respective backgrounds and beliefs and distract from our common-sense shared visions for the city. And no one fits that easily into one box.
Quote from: Garden guy on October 28, 2010, 10:36:32 AM
This sounds aweful but if find the hyper conservative ideas that run rampid in this cities history. I see that not until that changes will the city's downtown change. The church that runs this area is actually it's downfall. I go to other minor cities and wish our downtown was like them...we dont even match a small town downtown...seeing this and then looking at the amount spent on the courthouse is rediculous...unless the republicans somehow come to see the light of day this is not going to stop and we'll continue to be the laughing stock of the united states...they know us in england as close minded and lost...i could'nt believe i hear that in a pub in london..lol..how embarrassing.
With you 100% on the courthouse and some of the rather silly ideas from this administration, but please don't assume Republicans and conservatives are automatically opposed to good urban planning and downtown revitalization. There are plenty on this board, and a good number in Jacksonville's political history and present, who "get it"--e.g., Delaney, Bailey, and Moran. The Peyton administration does not typify what every conservative or Republican who loves Jacksonville thinks.
I've never heard any concrete examples of First Baptist standing in the way of any kind of downtown progress. It seems like their members would welcome an influx of cafes or bookstores or whatever, and I'd imagine they would love an easier way (ie transit) to get to church.
I really think a huge problem with downtown Jax is the apathy of most of Jacksonville's citizens. From living here my whole life and talking to other lifelong residents, they either don't care about downtown or are convinced it is a hotbed of criminal activity.
Yeah, you need strong leadership, but you also need the population at large to care about downtown. There are a few of us who would love to see something happen downtown, and there are a few on the other side who are of the "DOWNTOWN JAX IS DEAD!!! TEAR IT ALL DOWN!!!" (those are usually T-U posters). Then there are what I think is the majority of people in Jax, who don't care one way or the other but who don't want their tax dollars spent someplace where they don't think it'll do any good. I think it crosses both liberal and conservative lines, young and old.
I know after about a year of trying to successfully sell things at events downtown and trying to get people excited, my business partner and I kind of just gave up. He'll be leaving town in the next year and my wife and I may not be too far behind.
Correct. It's laughable to blame FBC in any way on lack of Jacksonville downtown development. They've been downtown since 1800's
thelakelander
Yesterday at 10:03:38 AM
Hmmmm......Are you trying to say the MBTA knows something that JTA doesn't?
I think it should be: JTA doesn't know anything MBTA does.
Quote from: videojon on October 28, 2010, 12:39:59 PM
Correct. It's laughable to blame FBC in any way on lack of Jacksonville downtown development. They've been downtown since 1800's
Yeah, its hard to pin the blame on FBC for shipyards closing, Adecco and American Heritage heading to the Southside or Barnett Bank being bought out by what is now known as BOA.
Quote from: Bativac on October 28, 2010, 12:22:19 PM
Yeah, you need strong leadership, but you also need the population at large to care about downtown. There are a few of us who would love to see something happen downtown, and there are a few on the other side who are of the "DOWNTOWN JAX IS DEAD!!! TEAR IT ALL DOWN!!!" (those are usually T-U posters). Then there are what I think is the majority of people in Jax, who don't care one way or the other but who don't want their tax dollars spent someplace where they don't think it'll do any good. I think it crosses both liberal and conservative lines, young and old.
This happens in some other cities too. And sometimes all it takes is the right leadership to turn those attitudes around consistently. There have been incidents where this happened at least temporarily--the Godbold years, from my outside perspective, seemed to get people excited about and believing in downtown for a time, even though some of the plans and/or their execution were misguided/incomplete at best.
I'd agree that your comments correctly express the majority sentiment in Jacksonville, but even those who share those sentiments are often willing to take visitors downtown to see the riverfront or the Landing, or to take the skyline and bridges as a point of pride. I'm not giving up on the idea that a passion for downtown's success can be rekindled and sustained. And sometimes it really is darkest before the dawn...Norfolk in the late 90s is an excellent example.
Wacca Pilatka.............I agree with your take on the issue! This administration has no bearing on much due to time constraints so they can not be counted on for much of anything........other than spending more money we don't have! But the next Administration can basically start with a clean slate, excluding budget issue's, if they have a vision of what needs to take place in order to revitalize downtown. No matter who wins, they must have an idea and a vision and the means to fund that vision! To this date, no mayoral candidate has said much and I can understand that........come January that probably will change and all will have something to say about the issue's that all of us are concerned about.............don't expect any of them to have all of the answers, but they must be willing to discuss it, if uniformed, they need to get informed! We as a City can no longer drift around with no clear goal to work towards........we must get focused and we must plan for the future!
Quote from: thelakelander on October 28, 2010, 12:43:09 PM
Quote from: videojon on October 28, 2010, 12:39:59 PM
Correct. It's laughable to blame FBC in any way on lack of Jacksonville downtown development. They've been downtown since 1800's
Yeah, its hard to pin the blame on FBC for shipyards closing, Adecco and American Heritage heading to the Southside or Barnett Bank being bought out by what is now known as BOA.
They also bring several thousand people into down town from the suburbs on a regular basis. The big activity days are of course Sunday and Wedensday but other days have activities.
Maybe a new "urban Wal-Mart" would attract people downtown. Seems like the company is going to start expanding in a new way.
http://www.americanbankingnews.com/2010/09/22/wal-mart-nyse-wmt-hopes-to-expand-to-san-francisco/
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2010, 08:41:06 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2010, 08:38:20 AM
Quote from: Coolyfett on October 27, 2010, 08:33:31 AM
Jax just needs more people in it. Not enough people there.
Sure, downtown needs more people. However, the reality is that its not going to get them anytime soon. Thus, the focus in regards to residential, should be connectivity between it and the densely populated residential districts adjacent to it. Instead of worrying about how to subsidize and attract 10,000 residents in the Northbank, spend less money by better utilizing the +100,000 that already live within a 3 mile radius (or so) around it.
+1,000,000
Just came across this number from an old Brooklyn Park article. Although this is a five mile radius around Five Point's Publix, it gives you a general idea of the population just outside of downtown that could be an asset if properly connected and utilized.
QuoteOne of Miles' closest competitors isn't worried a new development would hurt its own business.
The Publix-anchored Riverside Market Square, which is a shopping center about a mile away, has been a significant success since it opened in 2002, according to Sue Harker, a leasing representative for The Sembler Co.
Harker said that the center is completely leased and that the company expects it to stay that way for some time, even if the Miles center offers competition.
"It's a very strong market," she said. "We've been the only player in the game since that center opened, and honestly, I think bringing that in will strengthen the market."
Sembler's research shows 193,018 people within five miles of its center, with an average household income of $48,298.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/040507/bus_9063760.shtml
Riverside Avondale is a vibrant community close to downtown. JTA is experimenting with the Riverside Trolley (actually just a bus decorated like a trolley....isn't that funny, even JTA recognizes how cool actual trolleys are!) and has said that ridership is insufficient to continue the service.
So, here is an example of connectivity offered but not utilized in large numbers. Maybe all of those reading Metro JAx posts should ride the Riverside Trolley once in a while.
A PCT is not an example of fixed transit connectivity. A PCT is actually worse than a bus. With that said, I'm not saying this form of transit doesn't have its benefits. However, what I am saying is that it isn't the type of transit mode that has the ability to stimulate the economic development and connectivity desired and needed for a vibrant urban transit and pedestrian friendly atmosphere.
To help Lake's Point, JTA recently did away with some bus stops and changed some routes around Springfield. We lost business at our thrift store because of it. If it had been fixed rail based, the stops would still be there and so would our business. The routes and stops of rubber wheeled transit are subject to the whims of JTA so how could rubber wheeled transit ever have a positive impact on commercial development? Which in my mind translates to never being able to promote a vibrant urban area either.
strider....communities have made cuts in fixed route transit....cities like NYC, Philly, and Chicago have closed underutilized stations....fact is, JTA has seen a significant decrease in funding (due to a dip in sales tax revenues)...so some hard choices needed to be made.
Quote from: tayana42 on December 12, 2010, 12:57:35 PM
Riverside Avondale is a vibrant community close to downtown. JTA is experimenting with the Riverside Trolley (actually just a bus decorated like a trolley....isn't that funny, even JTA recognizes how cool actual trolleys are!) and has said that ridership is insufficient to continue the service.
So, here is an example of connectivity offered but not utilized in large numbers. Maybe all of those reading Metro JAx posts should ride the Riverside Trolley once in a while.
Looking at some information on the pros and cons of transit loops and came across this quote concerning a proposed New Haven streetcar system:
New Haven architect Robert Orr applauded Piscitelli for advocating the streetcar, noting that experience in other cities has shown that when an existing bus route gets trolley service, “ridership has gone up as much as 700 percent.†Streetcars, he observed, are “seen as more middle class.â€http://newurbannetwork.com/article/new-haven-plans-streetcar-will-one-way-loop-work-well-13245