Metro Jacksonville

Trouble in Downtown?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/889016501_PejWo-M.jpg)

An owner of a recently closed downtown business wants everyone to know what he went through with his small downtown business, and asked that his notice be published on Metro Jacksonville and sent to the City Council, so here it is verbatim:



Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-oct-trouble-in-downtown

Does anything in that message suprise anyone?

It shouldn't, it really shouldn't. I really feel sorry for anyone trying make a living DT. City does not care, but they want your tax money.

Is this also being sent to the FTU?  We've seen this letter for days, but what about the metro-area?  It's important for the rest of the citizens to have the wool pulled back, whether they requested it or not.

As a side note...What is the viability of a barber shop in the Carling building?  Are there that many men snagging haircuts on any given weekday during office hours that 32202 needs 7 barbershops? 

I haven't had any problems finding an open meter all summer on Adams near Hogan or around the library; but I'll admit I have some rather good parking juju.

Why not bike it?

We absolutely need leadership, courageous and bold, on the homeless issue downtown. 

What cities (our size or a bit larger) have the homeless thing figured out? I'm really only familiar with St. Louis, and it was like Jacksonville's twin in that regards. Total cottage industry. It's definitely a national issue, but I wonder what cities are the examples to look toward.

Did London Bridge close too? I thought they were just getting renovations.

To take care of the homeless problem downtown, you don't spend more money on the safety net.  You have to make it less hospitable for transients, so they move along to another town.  I can't believe no one foresaw the problem that would be caused by building a taj mahal library between a homeless shelter that closes during the day, and Hemming Plaza.  The city has put out the welcome mat and it will be difficult to reverse the problem while that dynamic is in place.

Quote from: jaxzjax on October 18, 2010, 09:51:48 AM
Did London Bridge close too? I thought they were just getting renovations.

yes...but since they had been open for 8+ years, their closure is likely more attributable to business practices (new ownership) than downtown policies

I'd agree on the London Bridge issue.  Once Ginger and her husband (Martin?) sold it, the place was never the same.

Quote from: Steve on October 18, 2010, 10:48:57 AM
I'd agree on the London Bridge issue.  Once Ginger and her husband (Martin?) sold it, the place was never the same.

Very true... Martin and Ginger made the Bridge... the Bridge.

Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2010, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 18, 2010, 10:37:06 AM

Quote from: jaxzjax on October 18, 2010, 09:51:48 AM
Did London Bridge close too? I thought they were just getting renovations.

yes...but since they had been open for 8+ years, their closure is likely more attributable to business practices (new ownership) than downtown policies

based on......?

I don't know the inner workings of their financial empire that led to their demise, but as a former customer they're business practices under their latest regime flat out SUCKED!  If your product sucks... well the smartest accountants and wisest government officials aren't going to be a big help to you.

I can think of another downtown restaurant who I frequented quite a bit(even yesterday) whose product has also gone seriously downhill to the point where I won't patronize it any longer.

Maybe downtown was not ready for a barber shop since it has little population.  This letter is a bit slanderous.

yeah. i drive to riverside for haircuts

Quote from: TheProfessor on October 18, 2010, 11:04:50 AM
Maybe downtown was not ready for a barber shop since it has little population.  This letter is a bit slanderous.

I think the main clientele of a barbershop downtown would be people who live within walking or mass transit distance from its doors.  I certainly would not drive downtown to get a haircut and cant imagine too many people doing so.  Downtown NEEDS more working class residents in order to make those types of staple businesses work.  

I just received a telephone call from Joe Bererdino, owner of Tonsor Barber Shop.  He said that the shop is still open and the rent is current.

QuoteOur city is known over the country as the best place to be if you’re homeless, because they are treated better than the tax payers that support the shelters.

Is this true?  Does Jacksonville have a national reputation as a homeless haven?

QuoteJacksonville is already the most unfriendly to the homeless medium sized city in the country

According to JSO officers I speak to when they respond to vagrant related problems, and they would know best, they state that when interviewing vagrants from out-of-town, the vagrants say they came to Jacksonville for the no questions asked easy pickings to be had in Jacksonville.

I worry about electing a new mayor who believes a day center for vagrants will have any impact on the library / Hemming / Scotty's crowd.  Will smoking, drinking, drug use, profanity, spitting, gambling, weapons and fighting be allowed at such a day center?  If not, I don't think the center would have many visitors.

on this topic my roomate who is from Detroit just returned back from a vacation up there and she was telling me how bad the homeless population was in downtown. She was telling me it seemed worse than anything we have here.

Quote
No, this is completely untrue.  In fact, the opposite is true.  Jacksonville is routinely listed as one of the meanest cities to the homeless.

Where, on Yelp, Tripadvisor or Gayot?

Seriously, consider who produces these ratings, and how they would tend to benefit from giving a city a bad rating.  City that Beats it's Wife the Most? And is a bad rating something to be ashamed about?

Quote from: JC on October 18, 2010, 11:13:51 AM

Quote from: TheProfessor on October 18, 2010, 11:04:50 AM
Maybe downtown was not ready for a barber shop since it has little population.  This letter is a bit slanderous.

I think the main clientele of a barbershop downtown would be people who live within walking or mass transit distance from its doors.  I certainly would not drive downtown to get a haircut and cant imagine too many people doing so.  Downtown NEEDS more working class residents in order to make those types of staple businesses work. 

But WHY? Why do people drive to regency or southside, etc to get something instead of driving downtown. Driving is driving. Is the parking that bad downtown? Wouldn't a meter cost about $0.50 or so? (I don't really know, I'm just guessing)

Quote from: fsujax on October 18, 2010, 11:34:05 AM
on this topic my roomate who is from Detroit just returned back from a vacation up there and she was telling me how bad the homeless population was in downtown. She was telling me it seemed worse than anything we have here.

From my memory, although they have a high homeless population, they don't take over what should be the core area of downtown.  In other words, Campus Martius, Greektown, the riverfront, etc. remain virbant showcase spots.  Things get worse on side streets where dense clusters of abandonment building still remain.  On the other hand, in Jax what should be the epicenter of downtown (Hemming Plaza) is also the epicenter for vagrants.

When I visited Tonsor, I was always able to get a spot on Adams. If I couldn't, I would just park in the Burrito Gallery lot for free and walk the one block.

I think a little guerrilla marketing could have helped him though. Flyers on car windows etc during the day, that kind of thing.

Well, it is obvious that there is a problem downtown, urban outdoor people, and not too sure that a center would even be used...........current administration has no plan or vision for that particular issue and look forward to what the Mayoral candidates have to say about the issue! I feel for any downtown business that has those issue's to deal with, on top of trying to keep their doors open and their business viable! Something that might help could be as simple as correcting the downtown parking issue but what do I know!

Quote from: RockStar on October 18, 2010, 12:00:27 PM
When I visited Tonsor, I was always able to get a spot on Adams. If I couldn't, I would just park in the Burrito Gallery lot for free and walk the one block.

I think a little guerrilla marketing could have helped him though. Flyers on car windows etc during the day, that kind of thing.

FYI - I got a $55.00 ticket for parking in the "FREE" Burrito Gallery lot for dinner at Indochine. Not from the city...from the lot owner. If you are going to ticket, please mark the lot better, have someone or someplace to pay, and do not put trash cans in front of the the signage.

Quote from: CDG on October 18, 2010, 01:07:40 PM

Quote from: RockStar on October 18, 2010, 12:00:27 PM
When I visited Tonsor, I was always able to get a spot on Adams. If I couldn't, I would just park in the Burrito Gallery lot for free and walk the one block.

I think a little guerrilla marketing could have helped him though. Flyers on car windows etc during the day, that kind of thing.

FYI - I got a $55.00 ticket for parking in the "FREE" Burrito Gallery lot for dinner at Indochine. Not from the city...from the lot owner. If you are going to ticket, please mark the lot better, have someone or someplace to pay, and do not put trash cans in front of the the signage.

Hope you did not pay it yet.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-mar-fake-look-alike-tickets-part-of-money-grab-scam

Ive drawn the conclusion that the city leaders have conceded downtown for the social misfits, homeless, mentally ill ect. Ive done so by listening in the local talk radio and heard numerous citizens state they could care less for downtown. Also, with a large amount of real estate possessed by First Baptist Church, the citizens, voters have concluded that downtown is going in the direction they agree with.
also, such as been my personal experience when trying to move downtown. After 3 years and thousands of dollars of legal expenses, i realized and reluctantly accepted this , purchased a home in riverside and have been very happy since.
I will do what i can to support 21st century development of downtown, but Jacksonville IS a metropolitan area. Even without a cultural, economically viable center. i. e. Los Angeles ect.

In the March 2010 DVI plan, they stated a "long-time goal of 10K [residential] units."  Can someone put some context around "long-time" and why 10K units?

10,000 units is the rule of thumb benchmark that is needed to support the full complement of basic services required to sustain a residential area, grocery store, drug store, etc.  When Charlotte reached this milestone, there was a marked influx of such businesses. 

There are exceptions though.  Winn Dixie is in DT Jax, albeit it gets panned by many.  Also, Greenville SC has fewer than 10,000 DT residential units yet sustains a DT Publix.       

Great great great article!  Excellent points!  Simple solutions.  I am about to post a new thread about my observations from Charlotte.  It might tie in...

Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2010, 11:10:30 AM

Quote from: TheProfessor on October 18, 2010, 11:04:50 AM
Maybe downtown was not ready for a barber shop since it has little population.  This letter is a bit slanderous.

There is plenty of population for a barber shop.  All of downtown and all of springfield.

true....which is why there are still at least 4 barbershops/salons downtown...and if it is true that Tonsor is still open, that would make 5!

Quote from: vicupstate on October 18, 2010, 02:49:33 PM
10,000 units is the rule of thumb benchmark that is needed to support the full complement of basic services required to sustain a residential area, grocery store, drug store, etc.  When Charlotte reached this milestone, there was a marked influx of such businesses.  

There are exceptions though.  Winn Dixie is in DT Jax, albeit it gets panned by many.  Also, Greenville SC has fewer than 10,000 DT residential units yet sustains a DT Publix.      

This is because their markets extend beyond the imaginary borders of their respective city's downtowns.  The magical number for grocery stores that size is typically around 20,000.  In DT Jax's Winn-Dixie's case, they're serving the Eastside, Springfield and Durkeeville in addition to DT.  I think this is something the JEDC, DVI and our city leaders need to take advantage of instead of isolating downtown.  If they took the holistic approach, they might see that State & Union is the corridor that they should place a higher focus on in regards to commercial development.

I won't get a haircut downtown because of the ridiculous parking policies.  Im not going to spend 21 on a haircut and another 10 for a parking space.
Stephen, do you believe that if you tell the same lie over and over again it will become true. There vis no $10.00 parking downtown except for special events. I am so tired of this lie you repeat over and over again. And I get my hair cut for $11.00. Maybe this guy is too expensive. And lastly The Carling is a terrible location. No one will survive there for a long long time.

And what is your answer. You have blamed parking as the only culprit downtown for years. I have read hundreds of atricles of other cities that wrestle with this problem. And for every example of a city making parking free there is another one with free parking that was the culprit. There is absolutely no proof that your point is even remotely valid. There are hundreds of contradictory articles on this subject.  And if all of the meters were removed in downtown Jacksonville these spaces would fill up immediately and the public would still have to park in garages. And to make these free should the city take this private property from its rightful owners and make these garages free too. And the city is terrible at running their own garages. Their employees steal thousands yearly. The city does not audit these garages and are getting ripped off every day by overpaid and over benefitted employees.

And if companies are leaving downtown isn,t it the landowners who are at fault for not providing parking for their potential tenants. If they paid too much for the property then it is their fault. If they can not compete with the burbs at competitive rates this is not a government issue.
How about somre honesty Stephen.

Dganson, it's easy for you to attack the messengers that report/editorialize on what's actually happening downtown. But it doesn't negate the fact that it's actually happening. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that points to parking being one of the major issues. When you have the companies that are moving out blatantly saying "parking is an issue", you saying that parking is not an issue is like saying that the sky is green and grass is blue.

You seem to have a record of calling the lot of us "whiners" for pointing this out. What's your vested interest in parking downtown?

(http://imgur.com/swZxH.jpg)

I also doubt parking is an issue for the companies downtown.  It's an issue for the Landing and for small businesses and that's it.  We have enough parking spaces, we just need to replace the meters with a higher tech more user friendly system ($1/hr with 2 hr max, pay by card, cash, or coins).  We also need to work on public parking signage and ease of entry/exit.  I for one have never had problems parking downtown, but there could be improvements.

Also in other cities garages are more aesthetically pleasing, are easier to find and enter, and offer a "free or cheap" visitor/patron section below the residents' or office users' parking levels.  That way most garages can be conveniently used by all.

It was an issue for MODIS.  They actually stated it as a major expense they were reducing in their recent decision to move to the burbs.  It was also mentioned in today's article about Tree of Life's decision to bail to the Southside as well.  However, this parking thing is much more complicated than making a decision on whether to have meters or not.  Office needs are also different from residential and retail parking needs.  When you employ over 100 people, you're not worried about on-street parking meters.  You're expense is in reserving that many dedicated spaces in a garage.

Or they could just manage parking as the COJ does for all its employees...POORLY! All the muckity mucks are given primo parking whenever and wherever. Those with city vehicles have prepaid parking assignments but think it's OK to stop at a meter and flash a pass if they so desire. But all the rest of us are at the mercy of the Parking Cartels where we are reduced to groveling, begging and sometimes borrowing parking that is both convenient and safe. All despite the fact that there is a City Ordinance mandating what city employees are required to pay for city owned parking. Somehow, when the city hires a management company to run city owned garages it becomes a whole new ballgame!

Or they can do what they are currently doing....move to another location where they can cut costs and not have to deal with the headache of being in downtown Jacksonville.

As someone else mentioned on Jacksonville.com, another problem is that this city does not have enough young professionals who will happily pay for downtown parking or even live downtown and walk to work.  We don't have any top universities that form the basis for the young professional class (though Charlotte doesn't either), and we have a higher proportion of blue collar companies.  The white collar companies we do have require years and years of experience and business connections as barriers to entry, and so they aren't even looking for college recruits.  The rest of the companies are either call center types or are distribution/warehousing/shipping and are blue collar oriented (but still pay well, just a different crowd that works there).  Charlotte is an example of a purely white collar city (I did not see *any* industry there whatsoever and everyone walks around with a suit, even in the suburbs).  We on the other hand are a blue collar town with rich people in it.  Charlotte's crowd is way more conducive to downtown employment and downtown/urban living.  Our crowd is way more conducive to suburban living and suburban employment so that it is easier to leave work and play golf or the blue collar crowd which isn't exactly a "progressive/urbanist" crowd.

And besides, I just emailed someone that works right there and knows a thing or two just to see his opinion on the matter.  He does not believe that parking is an issue downtown.  There is high availability and our rates are cheap by city standards (and the city subsidizes so much already to the operators so that they don't lose money because there is actually an overabundance of garages in the area and not enough workers to fill the spaces).  He thinks it is just another excuse, and why not use parking as an excuse?  Sleiman has been screaming about parking for years now and so it has become a common theme (in his case rightfully so since the city never honored its contract).

Lake, you mentioned the right word: it's a headache to be downtown right now.  It should be a way to leverage those added expenses against increased exposure and increased profitability.  Instead, the expenses are not worth the measly benefit, even though the expenses are so low (trust me, we have low lease rates and low parking rates, there are suburbs more expensive than our downtown in other cities, and before the recession there were many office buildings on the Southside with much higher lease rates than downtown buildings).

Where I take issue with many portions of this post. I will focus on one target area; the misrepresentation of the homeless men, women and children who live in our community:

Quote: "Finally, the "HOMELESS".  What a misnomer for the majority of them who are actually criminals, drug-addicts, alcoholics, and just plain bums."   
   The majority of homeless men, women and children are NOT criminals, drug addicts and ‘bums’. That is not to say that substance abuse is not an issue for some people who are homeless but it is not fair to say ‘majority’. Most of the 4,000+  homeless people living in Jacksonville are hidden from view and many of them are families with children who are suffering from crisis poverty.  According to the National Coalition for the Homeless, children and families account for one of the fastest growing segments of the homeless population. Nationwide, approximately 924,000 children are homeless. In this economy it is not surprising that more and more people are finding themselves facing homelessness. Many of the homeless living in Jacksonville are men and women just like the individuals reading this blog, but who have lost their jobs and have no where to turn for help except for the emergency shelters.

Quote: "But we can’t even get the homeless shelters to create a data base so our home less will have proper ID."
   The local homeless shelters do have a system in place that tracks the people that are served and many of the shelters do track the recidivism rate. As far as IDs go, people who are homeless also have to bring multiple forms of identification including an original birth certificate to get a state issued ID. All of the local shelters assist their clients with obtaining proper identification but as I am sure you know it can be a tedious process.

Quote "My answer is because the shelters get their money based upon  how many people they can count in their headcount, and if they were to keep count the right way with I.D.’s we would see that they are all helping the same people over and over again." 
   Shelters do not receive money based upon the number of people in their headcount. They receive money based on outcomes. Every shelter in this city is full every night and hundreds of homeless men, women and children are turned away because there is no more room. There is no shortage of people needing help.

Quote: "…creating the Jacksonville Paradise of Homeless"

Have you ever visited a homeless shelter?

Quote: "only to panhandle about the urban center from the well-intentioned but naïve visitors to the city"
Studies have shown that only about 2% of the homeless population panhandle. The other 98% are hidden from view.

I think that it should also be noted that many times people assume that someone is homeless because they are sitting in Hemming Plaza during the day. Recent homeless censuses have shown that not to be the case. Many of the men and women who spend their days in Hemming Plaza have homes. But they are low income and chose to utilize the free PUBLIC resources available to them such as Hemming Plaza and the Main Library. 

Most importantly one should remember the ‘the homeless’ are individuals. They are people who are someone’s son or daughter, sister or brother, mother or father. I am truly sorry that this gentleman lost his business and I know that can be devastating. I only hope that he is treated with the same sympathy, respect and kindness that I ask we give to every member of our community.

Dear Joe,

As an employee of a local shelter agency, I'm struck by your characterization of shelters as "paradise." I'd like to invite you to come down for a tour sometime. I can also show you our databases we use to track client data - I can't show you private client data, of course. We actually use 2 different databases. One, is custom-made proprietary software, which meets our agency's specific needs. The other, is a United Way-administered database, which tracks data across a 5-county area. The purpose of this is to limit "double dipping" and to help us best meet the needs of our clients.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that the "panhandling" homeless encountered downtown represent a scant minority of the more than 4,000 homeless men, women and children residing in the First Coast. The majority of these 4,000 individuals and families remain mostly invisible to the public.

Locally there are only around 1,000 shelter beds. That leaves roughly 3,000 with no place to go.

Also, please note that the idea that our homeless have bused in from some other locale is one of the biggest misconceptions regarding the issue. In FY 09-10, 70% of individuals served by my agency were from Duval County. These aren't outsiders or interlopers. These are our neighbors.

It's extremely unfortunate that many businesses have failed downtown. I know that I would be devastated if I was in your shoes. But, scapegoating the poor doesn't go too far with me.

Like I said, shoot me an e-mail and I can give you a tour some time.

Sincerely,
Taylor Strasser

taylor, i think i love you.

RiversideLoki  I have no vested interest in parking in any way. I am just a retailer trying to make a living. I never called you whinners...I called Stephen a liar by saying a haircut cost $21.00 plus $10.00 to park. This type of lie just exacerbates the perception of a nonexistent problem. No metro area our size has free parking as land costs too much to do this. But our rates are market competitive. And no one avoids downtown if there is a reason to be here..see next weekend..or this weekend for that matter. Parking does not keep theatre goers away. If there is something to do people will come. See July 4th, Fl/Ga, Christmas tree Lighting and boat parade, Jazz festival..I could go on and on. Sometimes small business fails because they have the wrong model or wrong location or just don't know how to manage a small business. My only point, I repeat MY ONLY POINT is that Stephen continually pushes parking as the single impediment to downtown success and lies about facts to validate his argument. Period

SaraD & Taylor Strasser,

Kudos for standing up in defense of such an easy target.

You both mentioned that the vast majority of homeless people do not panhandle, and Sara, you also that the people using Hemming Plaza or the library are mistaken to be homeless yet are not. To add to that, I've also heard that the majority of panhandlers are not homeless, and I was wondering if either of you have ever seen that in a study or know of this as likely true?

To my knowledge there is no definitive study on what percentage of panhandlers have a home, either locally or nationally. What I do know is a large percentage of persons who stay at any of the emergency shelters in Jacksonville are working or actively looking for work. But remember to legally work in the U.S. you have to prove you can legally work - you need an I.D. Non profits througout FL who assist with replacement I.D. have seen the cost double from 2008 to 2010. This is for both the records to get the I.D. and the actual photo I.D.

To reply to SarahD and Taylor Strasser, I agree that the criminal vagrants that terrorize downtown give the legitimately homeless a bad name. So, if in fact you do maintain a data base of bonafide clients, that are enrolled in your rehabilitation program, wouldn't it be easy to deny service to those who are not, like the criminal vagrants that give us all a bad time? 

This idea goes back to the Jacksonville Universal Assistance Card suggest long ago in MetroJax posts.  The concept is a simple one:  Reward those who endeavor to improve their condition, and deny services to those who do not.  The criminal vagrants that give the homeless a bad name will be weeded out of the system, and move on to some other venue.  Downtown will be better off, the people who live and work here will be happy, business will be satisfied, and your social service organization will have more resources available to devote to legitimate clients.

in reply to Jerry Moran:
Most of the shelters will ban a client if they are found to be participating in illegal behavior while receiving services. The ban can last from anywhere from 6 months to an indefinite period of time depending on the severity of the crime.

Also, most shelters hold their clients accountable for their actions and the clients are enrolled in programs that measure outcomes. If a client is not making progress and working hard towards improving their lives and reintegrating back into the community then they are in most cases suspended from receiving services.

Homeless services agencies work hard to be a hand up not a hand out. There is a big focus on sustainability and rehabilitation. That being said not everyone can be helped but I think it is important that we support our social services agencies as they play a key role in the improvement of our urban core.

QuoteMost of the shelters will ban a client if they are found to be participating in illegal behavior while receiving services. The ban can last from anywhere from 6 months to an indefinite period of time depending on the severity of the crime.

Also, most shelters hold their clients accountable for their actions and the clients are enrolled in programs that measure outcomes. If a client is not making progress and working hard towards improving their lives and reintegrating back into the community then they are in most cases suspended from receiving services.

OK, that's great.  Stop the handouts to those that are not behaving themselves.  Communicate and cooperate with the other shelters in town and work as a team.  If someone is blackballed by one shelter, they're blackballed by all.  That's what the JUAC Card was supposed to do: a single services ID card required by all shelters to be used with a common database.  The shelters need to stop competing against each other. As it stands, the shelters are being played for fools by the vagrants that swing between one shelter and another for duplicate and extra services.  That's how the problem people make a living, year after year in Jacksonville.

Almost forgot:

Quote"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty"
Thomas Jefferson

Quote from: Jerry Moran on October 20, 2010, 12:09:40 AM
Almost forgot:

Quote"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty"
Thomas Jefferson

If only 25% of the homeless ever have the opportunity of being in a shelter in Jax, doesn't that make it uncomfortable from the jump?  What, maybe itching powder in their bedding? Random attacks by wild packs of dogs?  What more should we do to make people who have no homes uncomfortable????

Of our 4K homeless, 80% are from Duval County.  We aren't talking about imports.  We need to be working harder to get our neighbors back in homes and on the road to recovery.  The already taxed shelters don't need to be spending 90% of their time dealing with 10% of the problem. 

Quote from: Jerry Moran on October 20, 2010, 12:09:40 AM
Almost forgot:

Quote"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty"
Thomas Jefferson

Maybe you could buy them all refrigerators to live in, that would be uncomfortable!

I dont get why people feel if you are hardworking and lucky enough to have a job, own a business or your own home you should be happy and feel blessed to be surrounded by homeless people, drug addicts, trash, fecal matter, urine, sexual displays, body odor, and camp debris. I have a feeling tough, if this was occurring at the SJTC, or in one of many gated communities it would not be going over too well. Hmmm speaking of gated communities, should they not be abolished? I mean isn't that blocking the poor souls from getting a nice free bath in the pools behind those gates? Should not the residents want to open their clubhouse facilities to for the grand cause?

So uptowngirl, you think people being advocates for the homeless are saying you should feel blessed to be around them? Don't you think that's a bit of a leap into pure dishonesty?

Quote from: Jerry Moran on October 20, 2010, 12:09:40 AM
Almost forgot:

Quote"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty"
Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson never said that.  It's a quote Glenn Beck made up, and he even attributed it to Ben Franklin...but he was wrong there too. 

No one cared about the homeless problem downtown, until we bused them out to sjtc!

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2010, 12:59:07 AM
JC.  Maybe you should stop being a dick to the guy who stepped up to help Miss Maggie a refrigerator when she needed one.

You didnt dig too deep into your own pocket to help buy that refrigerator, and yet you have the nerve to rag Jerry from the sidelines.  You may talk the talk, but to your own shame, Jerry walked the walk.  

I guess its less expensive to call Jerry names than to help out a woman who needed help.

In fact, I think its sickening that so many of you guys (TUFSU, can you hear me) think that its righteous to insult Jerry when he is the one out there every day having to pick up the slack where people of 'good conscience' seem to never have the wherewithal to help out.

It is morally wrong to force a merchant to also become the social worker for every social ill that makes its way downtown.  It is craven in the extreme to criticise him because he has the bad taste to bring the problem that exists downtown to your attention.  Its much easier to refuse to give change, complain about the evil 'conservatives' and then kick the man in the ribs whose actual livelihood is at stake every day because of your own apathy and inaction.

If you don't like Jerry's piss poor attitude about the criminals he has to deal with every day, then why not get off your self satisfied asses and come down and help deal with the people.

You see the need, but you feel better just throwing your rocks and running.

Meanwhile, when an actual need came up, Jerry answered the call and bought a poor woman with no means, a refrigerator that allows her to keep food in her own home.

You didnt.

And shame on you for it.

Its one thing to disagree with someone's politics, god knows Jerry and I agree on very little politically, but this hypocritical bullyragging is very uncalled for.  I know Jerry Moran to be an honorable and decent fellow, and I don't think many of the people who take such liberties criticizing him are man enough to master the obstacles that he has to deal with every day just to keep his very decent restaurant open downtown.

Stephen you have no idea what I do or don't do for people because there aren't any threads about my activities.  Unfortunately I cannot afford to by myself a fridge let alone someone else but I can promise you that if you ever need some basic home or auto repair done and you cant afford the labor I will be happy to help out.

Sorry but I have a hard time isolating an act of kindness from a pile of nastiness and I don't consider it thread worthy or cause for celebration. 

Quote from: Jerry Moran on October 20, 2010, 12:09:40 AM
Almost forgot:

Quote"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty"
Thomas Jefferson

This is a horribly dishonest and destructively stupid statement and it shows a complete lack of prospective on matters of poverty, no refrigerator can make up for this kind of thinking. 

But I am done Stephen, you are right, I am being a dick and my dickness is somewhat counterproductive and a distraction, I have said enough. 

Although my activities downtown are pedestrian I at least show up!  I drive my wife and kids to the library once a week and walk down the street like average normal people, check out some books, and get some lunch or a snack when we have a little extra money.  I go to Chamblin when there is a book I would rather own than borrow and sometimes grab a cup of coffee.  My wife loves three layers and when she needs time to herself she will go and hang out with the bunny.  Stephen my family and I are active and involved just because we show up.  Yes, I get asked for money and when its rainy I walk my family past the gauntlet of homeless hanging out in front of the library but I still show up.  Why do I show up?  I don't know, maybe its because I want to be part of a community, and whenever I walk around downtown I think wow, this place is gorgeous, and then there is some reminder of where I am, maybe its a little too hot that day, maybe its the fact that I am outnumbered by desperate people, possibly its the lack of families, maybe its some hint at the white conservative christian thinking that dominates downtown, whatever it is I am reminded how fast I need to get the fuck out of here because this place is dying...

Stephen I think your misrepresentations are part of the problem. You continually say things that are pure fabrications. For example:
Those 90% vacancy rates must be invigorating What 90% vacancy rates? Where?
This would apparently include not only the small businesses whose doors were shut over the past 15 years since your presidency nailed the coffin lid shut on the last remaining downtown merchants association. This association failed when the worst mayor in history ( Jake Godbold ) destroied downtown and the department stores left and the association main funding source dissappeared. And Jimbo Stockton was president when the association folded, not me. perhaps you can explain why my predictions about the downtown have been so accurate and why yours have been totally wrong? I made no predictions and my only point is that parking is not the culprit. Incidentally, the parking garages on Bay Street charge 10 dollars. Only for 4 hours parking...plenty of time to get a haircut for $21.00. Last time I checked, Doug, you were doing business with Mark Rimmer.  . Mark was a college roomate of mine and we are good friends, but I have never had any business relationship with Mark. NEVER!!!! why not start by explaining what kind of business connections you have maintained with these parking czars. Again I have bno business relationship with anyone. I run my own business but am not involved in any other business at all. NONE!!!! Didnt they promise you a piece of the 'tod' action at the time? Who are they and the answer is NO. I have no relationship with any business but my own. Now you are awfully cozy with the appropriately named Mr Rimmer and his cohorts, and yet awfully quick to call people 'liars'. What cohorts...what does this mean. Mark is a good friend and that is all.
Stephen once again you have misrepresented me and the problems downtown. And you always blame business failures on others and not the business itself. You have failed in Boomtown in 5 Points, The Jacksonville Landing, Hemming Plaza and Springfield. It is you and not the environment. La Cena is a success, as is Chamblains, Hemming plaza Jewelry, Jacobs, and many more....but you failed in the same locatiohn...it's you not the environment. City leadership has failed us massively starting with Jake (the Corrupt) Goldbold and now Johnny the Disaster. But it is not all about parking as you cliam, the problems are much broader. And you lying about the facts above does not help.

dganson, how did Jake Godbold destroy downtown?  Was it done on purpose?

2 hour parking limit signs. they work in san marco they work in riverside both areas more populated and more utilized then downtown . remember the perception of parking being a hassle is a big part of the public's problem with going down town.   

noöne's fauilting jerry for buying miss maggie a refrigerator--it's the most awesome thing he's done all year, and admittedly it's more awesome than any single thing i've done this year, too.

...but there's this little nagging voice that says 'man, i wish i could afford that kind ov quick image repair--one refrigerator later, everyöne wants to ignore who he is the other 364 days ov the year; now he's the golden man than none may slight with impunity'.

This is totally off topic, but are you using a non-US keyboard? Because you replace your "F"s with "V"s and have accent marks over your "O"s and your posts are really hard to read.

OK to change the topic a little...didn't we use to frequently comment on how many surface lots there were and how many garages there were downtown?  I don't personally work downtown, but my father always has, my uncle always has, and just about everyone I know works downtown.  I have never heard anyone complain about the parking whether it is the lack thereof or the prices (and the last couple days I asked around to be sure).  I think larger companies leaving downtown because of a "parking issue" or building managers (might I add just the manager of the Life of the South building) screaming the same thing are probably making excuses.

There is no less concentration of parking in the immediate core, the Southbank, or around downtown than any other city, and our prices are very competitive if not better (though our garages tend to be crappier).

I agree there is a public perception that it is hard for the average "downtown visitor" to find parking, but I think all it is is perception (and our meter maids are out of control, though the last time I was downtown I did not get ticketed nor did anyone else around me for being late on the meter).  I have been downtown countless times for any variety of reasons at almost any hour of the day and I have never had a problem finding a spot.  The average person who rarely comes downtown may not know how or where to look, but we can make it easier on them by implementing the exact same things we on this board have discussed and other cities have already done.

We don't need to go as far as making curb parking free (I have never seen that in a downtown unless it is off hours or the weekend).  We just need to take up all the coin meters and replace them with more modern equipment.  We need to increase signage not only on the garages, but also on street signs (public parking next left, etc).

We have so many empty garages in the core, not always connected to anything, but nonetheless empty that parking is definitely not an issue.  And once more people start coming downtown more often, the perception will fade and people will be used to being able to find a spot.  Modis has a garage, BofA has a garage, AT&T has a garage, Wachovia has a garage, Riverplace Tower has a gargae, Aetna has a garage, every building I can think of has a garage.  There is definitely not a lack of parking downtown.

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2010, 02:22:57 PM
Simms its not a problem for the residents and the small office professionals. 

The problem is the amount of money it costs for the out of neighborhood visitors and customers.

I hate jumping in, but with two large corporations leaving downtown recently, I think they're making it out as a problem for a lot more than just visitors and customers.  Or they're using it as a scapegoat. 

Before I go any further, I'm gleening all of this from what I've read in this thread - there's no actual fact checking involved.

2 major corps have moved to the southside, both claiming parking issues - not saying exactly what those issues were, but we have to assume it's the cost and not the availability.  Some (I'm sure I'll be corrected here) garages are subsidized by the city to turn an 8% profit.  By losing these 2 companies, the city will have to fork over even more taxpayer money to help these garages.  There was no apparent resolution between the city and these corps to come to terms with - just parking. 

Based on these facts, there seems to be a lot more going on behind closed doors than just a parking issue.  Because it would seem that the city could have cut it's 'parking' losses and justified it with the taxes they would receive yearly.

What say you?

Scapegoat.  Sure the suburbs are cheaper.  Downtown office locations are supposed to be an advantage and benefit to certain companies, but in downtown Jax they really aren't benefiting anymore.  The only people that work downtown are workers from Ortega, Avondale, Riverside, San Marco, and government workers and AT&T workers.  For the rest of the population (the majority of the professional working population) Southpoint, Gate, the Beaches, Flagler, and Baymeadows are closer and offer the same thing downtown does at less cost.

As we keep saying downtown is suffering from poor leadership, not parking, and companies are just using parking as a scapegoat.  As someone in another thread somewhere (maybe not MetroJax) said in Charlotte you aren't anyone if you aren't downtown, from a corporate perspective.  Charlotte is a very corporate city, though, not unlike how Jacksonville was in the 1980s/early 1990s.  Jacksonville now has a more services/industry/call center type job focus that doesn't require a large presence downtown, so downtown is hugely suffering from vacancies and poor leadership and the remaining companies with employees from the southside are fleeing.

Forteza was in a good building (for Jacksonville standards) in a good location and they had parking.  I know for a fact they had parking.  There are any number of reasons they are packing up for the Southside beside parking.  Could be the executives live closer to Deerwood, could be the majority of employees live near Deerwood, could be inside financial problems (I doubt that until I find out for sure whether their lease will be significantly less at Deerwood), could be anything.  They have been there forever.  They are not packing up now because of a parking issue when parking has not increased in price (at least significantly) and when there is more available parking, particularly for that area due to vacancies.  This is just common sense.

As for downtown visitors, Stephen if you read my above post I agree it is not as easy and convenient as it could and should be, but it is not the absolute end of the world.  For the businesses downtown that offer a necessity for people or a service that people really really want (like all of our new bars/clubs on Bay, Chamblins, La Cena, RCBC, the top floor restaurant in BofA, and a few others come to mind) they are doing fine with the parking situation we currently have.  Nobody is denying it could and should be better, though.  If the area's only Best Buy were downtown, people would find parking to get to it.  I have found it more difficult to park at a mall many times before than to park in our downtown.

The subsidized garages are not the garages that would affect any companies at Modis or the Life of the South building.  Modis has an underground garage and 2 large parking garages with lots of empty spaces in them 1 block away (1 is catty corner).  Life of the South has a large large lot next door and another garage only a block away, as well as 2 large garages only 1.5-2 blocks away.  Parking in Jax is also fairly cheap.  If employees/employers "all of a sudden" can't afford our parking rates, then we are definitely plummeting into the poor house.

Parking enforcement as visitors witness firsthand does not affect office employees who have spots in garages, some spots even assigned.  Parking enforcement only affects those who either park in a visitor garage and lose their ticket/can't pay or those who park at the meters and either don't pay or the time runs out.  Parking enforcement isn't enforcing employees who have a monthly contract, until they forget to pay their monthly bill.  In that case parking enforcement is right to try to collect.  They don't necessarily have to be nazis about the meters, though (and I think they have actually let up considerably since we put the pressure on them).  There is a balance, if parking on the curb were free and there were no time limits, the curb spots would be taken up by office workers trying to avoid the monthly garage fees.

I have also made it a strong point to distinguish the large office companies from the small businesses.  Please don't tangle my words.  As far as 5 Points and San Marco are concerned, they are commercial strips with chains and small businesses.  I am only referencing larger companies that require physical office space.  I know plenty of executives downtown and I know a few business owners.  That is not necessarily relevant to any of my points.

I am not talking about a conspiracy.  I never believe in conspiracies and this is no "collusion" to screw downtown, it is just a snowball that is rolling down a mountain and building.  I am making some very "educated" assumptions based on what I have heard first hand and I think what I am saying is quite logical once you put 2 and 2 together.

The reason we charge for parking is because most of our garages are built by private companies (I believe) and garages, no matter how ugly and plain they are, are fairly expensive.  The usual amount of time for a developer to make money back on a garage is anywhere from 10-20 years depending on if they charge for the spots and how filled up the garage is.  If a developer builds a building with an attached garage (say below ground or below the usable space but above ground) then they can more easily make their money back on that construction cost in other ways (slightly higher lease rates, higher condo prices or apartment rental prices, etc).  BofA and Modis charge high rates for their attached garages because there are not that many spaces in those garages and a higher concentration of high net worth executives who are more than willing to pay premium for interior garage spaces.

The bottom line is that garages charge because some must in order to service that construction loan and/or to turn a profit (it IS a business, too) and some garages charge simply because they can.  Would you build or run a garage for free?

Of course we want the businesses to succeed and believe it or not parking companies are businesses too.  Also, parking was not an issue just 5 years ago or 15-30 years ago when downtown was booming.  Parking has only improved since then yet just now companies are citing it as a problem.  That does not add up my friend.

Yea Stephen duh there is not enough demand for the supply, but they can't just make all garages free and take losses.  Now the garage business is probably one of the most competitive tricky businesses in town because they are losing their demand and their is a glut of supply.  They obviously have to figure out a way to make money, I couldn't begin to claim to know how to run a garage business, but I don't know any business that can survive by charging absolutely nothing for a product or service.  There was a restaurant that tried to set a voluntary price where customers paid only what they thought the food they were getting was worth, but they didn't "have to" pay.  Well that restaurant folded pretty dang quickly but not after it applied for SBA loans.

You just pointed out that the garages are more of a problem for the taxpayer than the companies located downtown.  I agree.  Now can we agree that any company currently downtown in one of our office buildings who moves and cites "parking issues" as the reason is probably just making an excuse.  I don't know Mark Rimmer, but that policy is not one I would endorse by any means.  Sure there are probably some really bad contracts with the parking guys and some corruption going on, but Metropolitan Parking Solutions probably did not originally envision the courthouse not being ready until 2011.  Meanwhile its garage has sat there since the mid 2000s.  MPS has probably screwed us over in many ways, but I think the city screwed us over in that instance.

There is demand for the central core garages where the employees are (less now than there used to be but still there).  We are subsidizing the courthouse garage which doesn't even service the AT&T building since they have another garage located NE of that building and we are subsidizing 2 more garages (I think sports complex and/or Kings Ave).  MPS does not operate any of the attached parking garages that are always full because of demand or all of the interior lots and garages that service the buildings.

I don't think supply and demand situations downtown are spread evenly (I know they are not) and I don't think they apply to the parking problem.  Downtown is supposed to not only be central to a community's workers thereby being the most convenient workplace for the majority of the population, it is supposed to enhance the business that goes on by making everything closer together.  If you have a meeting with one company it may be on another floor in your building or just a couple blocks away.  Time is spent more productively because there is more collaboration, less time driving for lunch and for meetings, and the overall atmosphere is supposed to be conducive to work.  Another huge huge huge supposed benefit of a downtown is exposure and advertising.  Having a trophy tower in a signature skyline can end up being your company logo (think Transamerica).  It sends signals to other companies and makes it easier for people to find your offices.

That all being said, downtown is no longer central to the majority of the NE FL population.  There is no overwhelming force to keep downtown as the center of town.  Once a few companies left for reasons of convenience to employees/executives, it started a chain effect that is continuing today.  Southpoint/Deerwood/Gate Parkway now offers an environment equally as good as downtown and for similar if not less costs.  Companies are close to each other and the workforce there, and now there are restaurants and shops and entertainment all nearby, thus making a more active environment than downtown separated only by the fact that one has to drive everywhere there.

Companies can realize huge benefits by being downtown, which is why office buildings usually can charge higher rents (though parts of the Southside and the beaches became more expensive in jax) and parking is not a problem.  Unfortunately these benefits are now virtually the same on the southside and with huge vacancies out there property managers are lowering rents there significantly and convenience to the workforce is the icing on the cake.

To bring downtown back, we need to concentrate growth more equally on all sides of downtown and in the core to make it more centralized and we need to make the downtown environment a better place to do business once again.  The parking is basically there already and now we have the streetscape project, we just need to provide better incentives and/or loosen regulations on all new developments within 3 miles of downtown to encourage more centralized growth.

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2010, 03:45:16 PM
Which companies left for convenience?  To which employees and employers are you referring?

What was the convenience that they sought?

Concrete examples please?

It is no secret that many employees of companies in Jacksonville live on the southside, the beach, or in northwest St. Johns County.  Downtown is no longer the geographic center of population that it once was.  You could make an argument that the Southside is now.  Perhaps some companies leaving downtown (or even companies moving to Jax) are more inclined to be within proximity to their employees, for better or for worse.

Stephen, I think we all know companies that left downtown over the past 20 years.  Now you just sound like you are picking on me.  It is common fact that downtown has become less and less the central hub of the local workforce while the JTB corridor has become it.  I think you questioning me for saying so is ridiculous.  All new companies to town skip right over downtown now, too.  I think that's a common fact, too.

I also specified the convenience of being centrally located (which is not downtown for most companies/people anymore).  Now the JTB corridor also means convenience to all of Jacksonville's good shopping, dining, and much of the entertainment.  That is also part and parcel of centrally located.  It's a snowballing chicken before the egg/egg before the chicken effect that we so commonly talk about here on MetroJax.  Need I explain?  We just need to bring that snowballing effect back downtown.  Parking is not the big problem.

Well I appreciate it (love practicing my debating skills on Metrojax) but I think everyone will agree that with a fact as commonly known as companies leaving downtown for Deerwood or any number of office parks on JTB specifics aren't exactly necessary.  Plus there are *too* many companies to name :(  Of course there are plenty of companies that have stayed downtown for their entire existence, though.  They deserve applause but when leases are up I wouldn't be shocked to see more leave.

QuoteThis is an excellent point, Cline.  And no doubt that it has been an ongoing pressure for the past couple of decades.  But there is a reason why that became true, non?

There are no doubt numerous reasons for this trend.  I tend to think one of the major causes was the general shift in favor of the suburban office park. Large landowners, assisted greatly by the city, wasted no time in converting farm and timber land to cheap, available land for office and commercial uses.  JTB provided the conduit for getting people in and out.

Sure parking is cheaper in the suburbs.  There is no denying that, but usually a downtown can offer enough benefits to certain companies needing that kind of office space where parking is not a problem.  Our downtown no longer offers these perceived benefits to these companies and it is no longer centrally located to employees/executives.  Every downtown in America competes with suburbs where parking is free, but not every downtown suffers as much as ours.

Here is a quote from a recent article on the issue of companies abandoning downtown Jacksonville.

QuoteMore companies leaving Downtown Jax

Already struggling from the soaring vacancy rates that have plagued the office market since the recession began, there is a growing concern that some Downtown office buildings might empty out even more as businesses contemplate relocating to other parts of Jacksonville.

The vacancy rate on the Northbank climbed to 26.1 percent in the second quarter from 25.3 percent in the previous quarter, according to the Cushman & Wakefield Marketbeat Jacksonville Office Report, and to 13.3 percent on the Southbank from 12.4 percent during the same period.

Bob Retherford, a senior director of office brokerage services at Cushman & Wakefield, said that to date, most of the losses in the Downtown office market can be attributed to businesses downsizing or closing altogether, not to businesses relocating to other submarkets. But that could soon change.

In addition to Adecco’s expected move, CNL Real Estate Services Principal Brad Chrischilles said he knows of at least two other Downtown businesses occupying 40,000 to 50,000 square feet of space that are also considering moving to other Jacksonville submarkets.

Those moves, combined, could create what Chrischilles calls “a tale of two cities” in which Jacksonville suburban office markets could start to recover while the Downtown market could decline even more.

“I love Downtown and have spent most of my professional career there,” Chrischilles said. “It hurts my heart to see this happening.”

During the recession, businesses have given up as much as 200,000 square feet of office space in the Bank of America and AT&T towers Downtown. And other spaces that emptied before the recession, including space in the Atlantic National Bank building once occupied by Regency Centers Corp. (NYSE: REG) before its move to the Modis building, never filled back up. That building is now 90 percent vacant, and the one tenant that does occupy space there, the U.S. Census Bureau, is only temporary.

Chrischilles said some of the reason for the increasing vacancy rate Downtown can be attributed to the high cost of parking, which can range from $80 to $110 per space per month on the Northbank and $40 to $60 per space per month on the Southbank.

Some businesses, including Rayonier Inc., have made the conscious decision to stay Downtown even as they shopped around for better lease rates. Rayonier (NYSE: RYN) recently signed a 10-year lease to relocate from 34,295 square feet in the Bank of America Tower on the Northbank to 35,615 square feet in the Riverplace Tower on the Southbank.

Office users new to the market have been few and far between, but the largest one recently, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., chose the Baymeadows corridor to open a temporary 155,000-square-foot office after considering Downtown space, brokers said.

Some investors, too, are looking at markets other than Downtown.

The Davis Cos., a Boston-based real estate investment, management and development firm, recently announced its interest in buying properties throughout the Southeast using a $230 million investment fund the company recently established.

Managing Principal Seth Werner said he is looking in markets all over Florida, including Jacksonville, but not in any downtown areas because most are suffering from high vacancy rates as businesses move to outlying markets that have fewer traffic and parking issues and more densely populated residential neighborhoods.

“Our preference would be to seek opportunities in more mature suburban southern markets in Jacksonville,” Werner said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/07/19/story3.html

How does the parking and leasing rates of downtown compare with the Southside's?  If downtown is significantly higher, why would any company be willing to pay more for these things in an environment that's not worth the extra expense and hassle?

Here's another from back in February...

QuoteCity could subsidize downtown parking

One way to convince employers to stay downtown may be to pay them to offset the cost of parking.

Although no official plan has been drafted, Jacksonville city officials are toying with the idea because, Jacksonville Economic Development Council Executive Director Ron Barton said, the average rental rate is higher downtown than in the suburbs, making relocating to a cheaper area with better parking a more attractive alternative.

“You pay a premium for having an office downtown,” Barton said. “If you recognize you can’t make the premium go away you’ve got to create value for the premium.”

The city hasn’t yet set any criteria for the proposed parking incentive program, or found a funding source or set a timeline for putting it into place, but Barton said if city officials do decide to move forward with it, he’d like to do it soon.

Adecco North America, which recently acquired Jacksonville-based MPS Group, has already announced it will move out of its headquarters that span five and a half floors in the Modis tower, named for MPS Group’s information technology staffing subsidiary. Other downtown companies are also looking into relocating, Barton said.

Still, Barton said he doesn’t want to open a Pandora's box by providing the incentive.

“We want something that works and is sustainable,” he said. “We can’t afford an empty downtown.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/02/08/daily16.html?ed=2010-02-10&ana=e_du_pub

Actually, parking seems to be the only issue that the city can actually deal with that has a time-frame. 

Downtown can't/won't provide the value on the premiums that these companies are willing to pay to have an office downtown.  It makes sense, in a way.  Why would I pay more to have my company located farther away from my employees with less QOL options before and after work?

When you step back and look at it, why would anyone want to work downtown, especially if it's going to cost more?

Ah my good friend Stephen, a true master of misdirection. Every time you respond to me you seem to miss the point and focus on the inane. For instance, my only real point that I am making is that you embellish your stories and your life with such simple transparency. I stated that there is no $10. Parking to get a $21 haircut.  You have yet to defend that and I think that you damage the already fragile perception of downtown by constantly repeating these destructive non truths. And you instantly get personal. Mark  Rimmer  has nothing to do with any of this and you probably have never spoken to him. And then you always remind everyone of my history with a slight about my business and my membership in the Downtown Merchants Assn., both of which were over 15 years ago. And it is doubtful that I have had any impact on downtown at all ever…except maybe to provide some conveniences to the people who work and visit downtown. I am just a small businessman working hard every day to turn a profit.

You have also made the comment that the two companies that announced that they are leaving are leaving because of parking… but it isn’t true. You repeat this over and over again to make your case but it just is a fabrication of assumptions that you like to make. Here are statements released by both companies as to their decision:

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=532104

“We chose to relocate our corporate headquarters to Flagler’s Deerwood South business park because of its convenient location, quality space offerings and world- class corporate setting,” said Fortegra Financial President and CEO Richard S. Kahlbaugh in a statement


http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/07/26/daily12.html
Tyra Tutor, senior vice president of corporate development for Adecco, said: “Through the entire process we remained fully committed to the Jacksonville community and decided on this specific location for a variety of reasons, including proximity and convenience for our employees, an efficient building layout and the ability to create the best possible working environment.

Doing some simple math let's say you have 30 employees and need 15,000 SF.  Let's also say the average parking rate on the Northbank is $95 and your rental rate is $20.  You are going to pay roughly $357,000/yr for your space if you are covering your employees' parking.  In the suburbs if you are paying $18/ft and obviously parking is free then you are paying only $270,000/yr, which is almost 25% less.

There are other factors to take into account, but just looking at a cost structure the suburbs are cheaper.  There was a time at the height of the boom in the mid 200s where certain southside submarkets had considerably higher rates than even the northbank, which leveled the costs.  Now the southside is almost as vacant as downtown and building owners have a higher profitability margin on their buildings there so they have slashed rates drastically.

Now downtown is already a tax abatement zone I believe, and it is part of a CID (tax increment zone) and it is an enterprise zone, so there are more incentives to be downtown, but even those aren't making up for the added costs.  We need to make downtown central to the workforce and we need to provide further incentives for companies to be downtown.  I don't know what all other cities do, but I do know that every city grapples with competing suburbs that offer free parking and I do know that other cities have just as much white flight as Jacksonville, but they still manage to get the majority of their companies to be downtown.

In Atlanta where rates and parking are more expensive, vacancies are really high (due to downsizing just as one of those articles mentioned creating shadow space and just being way overbuilt) companies are still relocating to the two inner submarkets of Midtown and Buckhead.  Regions Bank is the only significant bank in Atlanta without a name on a building and it is seriously shopping around right now (in the city, not the burbs).  Alston and Bird, a local big 50 law firm, is tired of sharing an older building (One Atlantic Center, 1988, 820 ft. high, 50 floors, Phillip Johnson design...still not good enough LoL I guess bc it's not LEED certified) with other tenants and is somewhat considering building its own new building in Midtown.  Either local city leaders do something to keep companies in the downtown area or the city itself provides the right environment for companies to feel that the benefits outweigh the costs (which are higher here than in jax).

It may be that Jacksonville is just a lot poorer than other cities like Charlotte and Atlanta and truly can't afford downtown anymore.  If that is the case then we are pretty screwed for a while.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 20, 2010, 05:07:17 PM
Actually, parking seems to be the only issue that the city can actually deal with that has a time-frame. 

Downtown can't/won't provide the value on the premiums that these companies are willing to pay to have an office downtown.  It makes sense, in a way.  Why would I pay more to have my company located farther away from my employees with less QOL options before and after work?

When you step back and look at it, why would anyone want to work downtown, especially if it's going to cost more?

This.

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2010, 05:18:05 PM

Quote from: dganson on October 20, 2010, 05:10:03 PM
Ah my good friend Stephen, a true master of misdirection. Every time you respond to me you seem to miss the point and focus on the inane. For instance, my only real point that I am making is that you embellish your stories and your life with such simple transparency. I stated that there is no $10. Parking to get a $21 haircut.  You have yet to defend that and I think that you damage the already fragile perception of downtown by constantly repeating these destructive non truths. And you instantly get personal. Mark  Rimmer  has nothing to do with any of this and you probably have never spoken to him. And then you always remind everyone of my history with a slight about my business and my membership in the Downtown Merchants Assn., both of which were over 15 years ago. And it is doubtful that I have had any impact on downtown at all ever…except maybe to provide some conveniences to the people who work and visit downtown. I am just a small businessman working hard every day to turn a profit.

Perhaps calling someone a 'liar' might be considered 'personal'?

I don't know how much you spend for a haircut, but I spend at least 21.  If Im going to come all the way downtown to have a haircut, chances are Im going to hang out and grab lunch as well, keeping in mind the standard uncertainty as to when a stylist is going to be available.

If Im driving (which incidentally I don't) Im going to park for a while.  I have a choice, either hang out on the street and risk a 15 dollar ticket, or park in a garage.

That is going to be ten dollars for a couple of hours.

And given a choice between the same haircut and lunch in five points minus the parking fee, Im going to choose five points or san marco.

Don't forget, 5 pts is also way more fun.  Downtown still gives me that feeling of a small police state or authoritarian utopia.  Going to downtown is a headache.  Going to 5 pts is interesting. 

Again a lie. There is no where downtown that 2 or 3 hours costs $10.00. You continue to push this same line but it is a lie. Just because you say it doens not make it true.

Oh I get mty haircut in the BBT building...another long time successful business downtown, John Combs..and it is $11.00

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 20, 2010, 05:07:17 PM
Downtown can't/won't provide the value on the premiums that these companies are willing to pay to have an office downtown.  It makes sense, in a way.  Why would I pay more to have my company located farther away from my employees with less QOL options before and after work?

When you step back and look at it, why would anyone want to work downtown, especially if it's going to cost more?

Quite frankly, this is what it basically boils down to.  Downtown in its current state is not worth paying more operate a business in over the suburbs.  Whatever issue we want to make as the main culprit doesn't really matter.  The fact that the environment flat out isn't worth the costs to operate in it does.

except for fans & stoves, all the interesting has been bled out ov five points...

...but that's neither relevant nor constructive.  stephen, i do think you're a little too hung up on this parking thing.  yes, it's a factor in our downtown desolation, but you're ascribing it far more importance than it actually has.

on the other hand, Dganson, your private little crusade against stephen (and presumably other 'liars') is getting a little tiresome.  i don't doubt that 10.00 for two hours is unlikely and perhaps nonexistant, but you've got to allow people a little hyperbolë for dramatic effect; no point has ever been clearly made without it.

And now on to Jake Goldbold. Jake is a hick and he was corrupt. His buddies Tommy Greene and Don McClure were convicted and they were all corrupt. But that is not why I dislike him so much. It is about two things. The convention center is primary. He knew it was too small to build but did it anyway making it impossible to build an appropriate one for 25 years. A convention center that only could handle less than 15% of national conventions was stupid. Al he cared about was his legacy...not doing the right thing

And secondly, another legacy was to rebuild Hemming Plaza and all of the streets downtown. And he did...for three years. During that time Iveys, May Cohens and Pennys left downtown. And with this loss of mass the Landing never got going as it could of. And he was the first mayor to put off providing the promised parking to The Landing that was built under his watch. He just did not get the big picture and we have never recovered from his administrations damage. And now our current mayor has made it 10 times worse.

Stephen...people will pay for percieved value. Businesses fail due to poorly percieved value. If the value is there people will pay whatever you ask. I mean someone gets $21 from you for a haircut. I could pay John Combs $11 and $10 parking and still be even with you.

Quote from: dganson on October 20, 2010, 05:26:47 PM
Again a lie. There is no where downtown that 2 or 3 hours costs $10.00. You continue to push this same line but it is a lie. Just because you say it doens not make it true.

Outside of special events and first hour parking validation (most don't know about), you'll pay around $9 for 3 hours if you park at the library parking garage.  I'm not too sure about the other garages.

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2010, 05:41:47 PM

Quote from: dganson on October 20, 2010, 05:40:32 PM
Stephen...people will pay for percieved value. Businesses fail due to poorly percieved value. If the value is there people will pay whatever you ask. I mean someone gets $21 from you for a haircut. I could pay John Combs $11 and $10 parking and still be even with you.

So are you under the impression that Addeco and Tree of Life, failed?

I'd like to add to Stephan's comment - Of these 'failed' businesses, how many re-opened in another part of town with success?  Not that anyone would know, but it adds another dimension to the fact that maybe they just 'relocated.'

Here is another article related to Adecco and parking costs DT vs the burbs.  Before Adecco decided to leave downtown there was an article that stated they were paying +$500k/year on parking costs.  By moving to the burbs, that's a significant instant savings to relocate to an area that has more energy and life.  Just as soon as I find it in the archives, I'll post it to this thread.

QuoteJacksonville finds it too costly to pay business’s employee parking as incentive

The proposal was considered to keep Adecco downtown.

By David Bauerlein
City officials have ruled out subsidizing employee parking in order to keep a major employer in the downtown.

Adecco Group,  which recently purchased MPS Group, has said it is leaning toward moving 375 employees out of downtown.

Adecco Group hasn’t requested financial incentives from the city, but the possibility of losing its corporate presence in the heart of downtown triggered talks at the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission about what the city might do. The 35-story Modis Building is named after a subsidiary of MPS.

JEDC Executive Director Ron Barton on Wednesday told commissioners the cost of paying for employee parking can equate to an additional $2 to $3 per square foot in leasing costs compared with being in the suburbs. He said it’s not financially feasible for the city to cover that cost.

“I will tell you this â€" the city can’t write a check large enough,” Barton said at the JEDC’s monthly meeting.

He said the cost of parking is a financial consideration for other downtown employers. The city needs to work on better transit connections to less-expensive parking on the edge of downtown, he said.

According to a 2009 survey by Colliers International,  Jacksonville’s parking rates ranked as the 18th lowest among 64 cities analyzed in North America.

http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-5382729/aHR0cDovL2ZlZWRzLmphY2tzb252aWxsZS5jb20vfnIvSmFja3NvbnZpbGxlY29tQnVzaW5lc3MvfjMvMy1NZkhubGxrRGcvamFja3NvbnZpbGxlX2ZpbmRzX2l0X3Rvb19jb3N0bHlfdG9fcGF5X2J1c2luZXNzJTI1RTIlMjU4MCUyNTk5c19lbXBsb3llZV9wYXJraW5nX2FzX2k=

No they just relocated, for the reasons given above. Are you that dense. I am obviously speaking of small retail and food downtown.

Chew is doing so well and have been unable to negotiate more space that is affordable that they are leaving due to landlord issues. As are the other two. You want to blame parking and government for your problems but sometimes a landlord has other objectives that you are not aware of or just are willing and able to wait it out.

more misdirection Stephen...come on you have been much better than this in the past. I am starting to lose interest in yanking your chain. You are beginning to bore me.

Quote from: dganson on October 20, 2010, 05:40:32 PM
Stephen...people will pay for percieved value. Businesses fail due to poorly percieved value. If the value is there people will pay whatever you ask. I mean someone gets $21 from you for a haircut. I could pay John Combs $11 and $10 parking and still be even with you.

This is the problem that Jax will be facing for years more, with no 'percieved' answer in sight.  There is no 'percieved value' for being downtown anymore, that is a nice 1950's sentiment that is no longer in fashion.  Today's culture demands that we have greenspaces, campuses and all those other eco-friendly buzz words that lure people to the 'burbs.  The funny thing is, for all of the community and ergo-living BS that they are selling, ask one person who works on the southside that walks to lunch.  How many southsiders can brown bag it and enjoy lunch looking over the St. John's.  

I keep arguing against myself, but both my points are clear to me - Companies are being lured away with 'percieved values', and downtown can't build any value in itself to keep them.

Quote from: simms3 on October 20, 2010, 05:16:46 PM
I don't know what all other cities do, but I do know that every city grapples with competing suburbs that offer free parking and I do know that other cities have just as much white flight as Jacksonville, but they still manage to get the majority of their companies to be downtown.

What to do is quite simple to me.  You have to bit the bullet, stop blowing hot air and actually invest in downtown with public/private projects that make urban living worth living.  You know, the stuff like mass transit, active parks, better schools, etc.  You may even have to give up property for free and tax breaks to land a major company, housing development or educational facility to anchor your DT.  You also have to cluster your investment to immediately create pedestrian synergy around it and the surrounding area.  Invest in things that breed life and activity and then some companies may not mind paying more on parking to be in the center of it all.  On the other hand, if we keep blowing hot air and trying to sell people on a polished turd, the race out of DT will continue.

agreed

Quote from: thelakelander on October 20, 2010, 06:16:27 PM

Quote from: simms3 on October 20, 2010, 05:16:46 PM
I don't know what all other cities do, but I do know that every city grapples with competing suburbs that offer free parking and I do know that other cities have just as much white flight as Jacksonville, but they still manage to get the majority of their companies to be downtown.

What to do is quite simple to me.  You have to bit the bullet, stop blowing hot air and actually invest in downtown with public/private projects that make urban living worth living.  You know, the stuff like mass transit, active parks, better schools, etc.  You may even have to give up property for free and tax breaks to land a major company, housing development or educational facility to anchor your DT.  You also have to cluster your investment to immediately create pedestrian synergy around it and the surrounding area.  Invest in things that breed life and activity and then some companies may not mind paying more on parking to be in the center of it all.  On the other hand, if we keep blowing hot air and trying to sell people on a polished turd, the race out of DT will continue.

I'm entirely too lazy to do the research, but isn't this sort of what happened in Atlanta?  People flocked out of the downtown 'core' only to build up Buckhead, and now, 20 years later they are still trying to get people/businesses back into the city.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 20, 2010, 05:59:27 PM

Quote from: dganson on October 20, 2010, 05:40:32 PM
Stephen...people will pay for percieved value. Businesses fail due to poorly percieved value. If the value is there people will pay whatever you ask. I mean someone gets $21 from you for a haircut. I could pay John Combs $11 and $10 parking and still be even with you.

This is the problem that Jax will be facing for years more, with no 'percieved' answer in sight.  There is no 'percieved value' for being downtown anymore, that is a nice 1950's sentiment that is no longer in fashion.  Today's culture demands that we have greenspaces, campuses and all those other eco-friendly buzz words that lure people to the 'burbs.

These are things that also lure people to vibrant urban cores all across America.  Leave Jax and visit a peer like Charlotte, Austin, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Raleigh or Norfolk and you'll see people wanting to be in their downtowns.  That's because those places actually invest in their downtowns with things that improve the quality-of-life element within a compact environment.  All we do here is study, repeat failed policies and wonder out loud why things still don't work after +40 continuous years of redevelopment strategies.  If we open up our eyes and look around us, we'll discover that we're making downtown redevelopment more difficult and time consuming than it needs to be.

A solution. Build a convention center next to the Hyatt. Reclaim 1/2 of the Shipyard property and make it public access land on the river forever. Sell Sleiman the land under the Landing so he can develop it. He is the only player with the interest and financial clout to make something happen. Do these two things immediately, sit back and watch the vibrancy return to downtown in less than 10 years.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 20, 2010, 06:20:34 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on October 20, 2010, 06:16:27 PM

Quote from: simms3 on October 20, 2010, 05:16:46 PM
I don't know what all other cities do, but I do know that every city grapples with competing suburbs that offer free parking and I do know that other cities have just as much white flight as Jacksonville, but they still manage to get the majority of their companies to be downtown.

What to do is quite simple to me.  You have to bit the bullet, stop blowing hot air and actually invest in downtown with public/private projects that make urban living worth living.  You know, the stuff like mass transit, active parks, better schools, etc.  You may even have to give up property for free and tax breaks to land a major company, housing development or educational facility to anchor your DT.  You also have to cluster your investment to immediately create pedestrian synergy around it and the surrounding area.  Invest in things that breed life and activity and then some companies may not mind paying more on parking to be in the center of it all.  On the other hand, if we keep blowing hot air and trying to sell people on a polished turd, the race out of DT will continue.

I'm entirely too lazy to do the research, but isn't this sort of what happened in Atlanta?  People flocked out of the downtown 'core' only to build up Buckhead, and now, 20 years later they are still trying to get people/businesses back into the city.

I haven't been to Atlanta in a year, but it seems like people are flocking back to that city's downtown & Midtown with no problem.  Projects like the new aquarium and Atlantic Station have been really popular additions.

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2010, 05:51:59 PM

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 20, 2010, 05:49:44 PM

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2010, 05:41:47 PM

Quote from: dganson on October 20, 2010, 05:40:32 PM
Stephen...people will pay for percieved value. Businesses fail due to poorly percieved value. If the value is there people will pay whatever you ask. I mean someone gets $21 from you for a haircut. I could pay John Combs $11 and $10 parking and still be even with you.

So are you under the impression that Addeco and Tree of Life, failed?

I'd like to add to Stephan's comment - Of these 'failed' businesses, how many re-opened in another part of town with success?  Not that anyone would know, but it adds another dimension to the fact that maybe they just 'relocated.'

Well actually there are a number of them.  Consider for a moment the fact that Jonathan Insetta is closing his Chew restaurant.  Is he a 'failure'?  Doesnt sit to well with his Orsay restaurant or his proposed new construction in Five Points.

Based on his crowds at lunch, Insetta isn't exactly 'failing' downtown!

I think it is clear that Chew has tried to expand downtown, so let's not consider it closed just yet

correct...I have never stated that all businesses that close downtown have a "flawed business plan"...in some instances, that has been the case...but clearly there have been successful retaiol businesses downtown...such as Burrito Gallery, Dos Gatos, several Landing establishments, etc.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 20, 2010, 06:29:23 PM

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 20, 2010, 06:20:34 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on October 20, 2010, 06:16:27 PM

Quote from: simms3 on October 20, 2010, 05:16:46 PM
I don't know what all other cities do, but I do know that every city grapples with competing suburbs that offer free parking and I do know that other cities have just as much white flight as Jacksonville, but they still manage to get the majority of their companies to be downtown.

What to do is quite simple to me.  You have to bit the bullet, stop blowing hot air and actually invest in downtown with public/private projects that make urban living worth living.  You know, the stuff like mass transit, active parks, better schools, etc.  You may even have to give up property for free and tax breaks to land a major company, housing development or educational facility to anchor your DT.  You also have to cluster your investment to immediately create pedestrian synergy around it and the surrounding area.  Invest in things that breed life and activity and then some companies may not mind paying more on parking to be in the center of it all.  On the other hand, if we keep blowing hot air and trying to sell people on a polished turd, the race out of DT will continue.

I'm entirely too lazy to do the research, but isn't this sort of what happened in Atlanta?  People flocked out of the downtown 'core' only to build up Buckhead, and now, 20 years later they are still trying to get people/businesses back into the city.

I haven't been to Atlanta in a year, but it seems like people are flocking back to that city's downtown & Midtown with no problem.  Projects like the new aquarium and Atlantic Station have been really popular additions.

Correct.  I live in Midtown along with about 50,000 other young professionals/students (this in my zip code of 30309 and my old zip code of 30308).  Downtown is surging.  Georgia State is one of the most urban and unique campuses in any city and they have created a thriving 24/7 environment in downtown.  Their "Greek" housing is a new rowhouse project and they have built lots of new buildings and acquired others in order to bring as many of their 35,000 students to live downtown as possible.  Add to that the Aquarium, World of Coke, Peachtree Center, CNN Center, all the Merchandise/Fashion/Gift Marts, the stadiums being right there, Centennial Olympic Park (a better park than most cities have anywhere), new condos, the new W Hotel & Residences downtown (recently foreclosed though), and the list goes on.

Midtown West is booming big time as well.  Really all of the surrounding areas are being built up in the same fashion as Charlotte, except with a more modern look.  Atlanta is so large it has like 5 CBDs, Buckhead being one, but Buckhead is becoming more walkable and is kind of its own city.  I just got back from a bar in Buckhead.  Oh and downtown has received 80% of its funding for a trolley/streetcar line to go from MLK Memorial on Edgewood all the way to CNN Center near the Aquarium/World of Coke/future AA Museum/future College Football Hall of Fame/Centennial.  That will really do wonders.  Eventually it will tie in to a North-South line and hopefully the Beltline.

I agree Lakelander, we just need to bite the bullet and invest more.  We have improved our local roads enough to last at least another 5-8 years so let's quit funding new roads and put that money to better use.  Also, in good times I think we could sell more muni bonds, but it does not currently look like that will be possible.  Plus the city does not want to risk its credit (already shaky right now, as are most cities).  Funding will be the issue.  Unfortunately the timing isn't the best to really invest downtown, but we can at least start.

By the way, one will often encounter traffic on a Thursday-Saturday night heading into Midtown/Downtown Atlanta because everyone from around the metro comes here either to the Fox or to an event or to any number of restaurants, bars, and clubs.  Luckily I can walk.  The Eagles just played a big show in Piedmont Park last weekend and of course I am down the street so the thousands of fans who took MARTA and walked a couple blocks to the park resulted in the streets being closed and traffic backing up out of sight.  It's the place to be.  Charlotte felt the same way on a smaller scale.  Everyone wants to be Uptown there.

Like I said, our budget is going to take a hit no matter what we do because this economy stinks, but we should increase our tax abatement zone/enterprise zone from downtown to a 3 mile radius.  We should also deregulate zoning/land use plans for that 3 mile radius to encourage any and all development to come in, whether it is good or bad.  We just need a critical mass around downtown and in our core.  Once we get that ball rolling then we can phase back in normal taxation and regulations and just stick to the typical CIDs.