Firehouse Subs closing

[fsujax]

Riverside and 5 Points are mad houses during lunch. I've given up on going over there at lunch time.  Wish we had more/better places in Springfield.....always plenty of parking there.

[RiversideGator]

Great shots, Lake.  Note the multiple free diagonal spots there.  You simply make the sidewalks a little narrower and stick in the diagonals.  We have these massively wide sidewalks in downtown Jacksonville as if it was Paris and no one walking on them.  It is actually pretty ridiculous.  Cut the parking spots out of those and bring the people in.  This is really a no brainer.

In fact, many of those pictures remind me of Jacksonville's Hemming Park.  Imagine free diagonal parking along that park and all of the people who the additional parking would attract.

[RiversideGator]

Here is another shot of Greenville's Main Street:



Note the plentiful diagonal free parking.  Rather than having extra wide car lanes (which encourage speeding thereby scaring pedestrians) and extra wide sidewalks (bereft of pedestrians of course) as is the case in Jacksonville, make them a bit narrower and add in the diagonals.  Also, the presence of parked cars shields the pedestrians from traffic who will then feel safer walking the streets and who will be increased in number because they were able to find a hassle free parking spot downtown.  People drive to downtown, park for free, and walk around.  Happens every day in San Marco and Riverside-Avondale.  What a concept!

Now, eventually when you get to a much larger sized urban area with hundreds of thousands of people coming downtown each day and/or living there, this paradigm would start to break down.  But, right now and for the foreseeable future we are far from having that problem.  It is time for a change.

[Ocklawaha]

Greenville needs a Trolley System...

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

Greenville is getting ......... BRT.  They're transit authority is pulling up an old rail line and putting buses into it.  However, for some strange reason it's no where in the ballpark of $750 million.

[vicupstate]

Greenville needs a Trolley System...

Ocklawaha

There is a free DT Trolley.  Of course, it's the Trolley-style bus, similiar to the ones Jax uses, not a genuine rail trolley.

There are two significant differences though. 1) the word "Free" is promeniently displayed on the vehicle and 2) it gets respectable useage.   

The local baseball team uses them to carry fans to the field, from a large surface lot that is several blocks from the field itself.  The Baseball field itself has no dedicated parking.  The team ownership also pays part of the maintenance.

[vicupstate]

Greenville is getting ......... BRT.  They're transit authority is pulling up an old rail line and putting buses into it.  However, for some strange reason it's no where in the ballpark of $750 million.

Actually the rail line was pulled up many years ago.  Like twenty or more. 

The city bought the right of way for next to nothing a few years back.  Part of the ROW will be paved for the buses to use, with a parallel walking/running/cycling lane as well.   Half of the walking/running/cycling path will be rubberized to reduce stress on (human)joints.

Rumor is the buses will run on hydrogen, so there will be no fumes. The total length is just over 8 miles I believe with a total price tag of $20mm.  Federal and state funds are anticipated to cover all but $1-2mm of that.   About 75% of the 8 miles will be totally absent of normal vehicular traffic.  No traffic lights, or interaction with other vehicles.   

Hell, for $1-2mm, what have they got to lose?   The hope is that in future decades after TODs and such have built up along the ROW, that a conversion to rail will occur.           

[thelakelander]

I'm not against the concept of BRT.  I think it can be a very good choice when it costs $1 to $2 million/mile.  Its when it ends up costing more than rail that I have serious issues with it.

However, there's a lot of research out there showing its pretty difficult to attract quality large scale TOD investment with BRT.  So Greenville will probably see TADs rise (car oriented developments in the burbs that happen to be adjacent to the old rail line), as opposed to TODs (developments with the mass transit option designed as a centerpiece).

[Steve]

so now we're comparing Jacksonville to Greenville, SC?

I thought you all want people to stop thinking small and realize that Jax. is becoming a big city!

The problem comes when cities smaller than us are doing things right.  Yes, Jacksonville is a larger city, but somehow, with their smaller population and (assuming) smaller city budget, they've figured it out.

[vicupstate]

I'm not against the concept of BRT.  I think it can be a very good choice when it costs $1 to $2 million/mile.  Its when it ends up costing more than rail that I have serious issues with it.

However, there's a lot of research out there showing its pretty difficult to attract quality large scale TOD investment with BRT.  So Greenville will probably see TADs rise (car oriented developments in the burbs that happen to be adjacent to the old rail line), as opposed to TODs (developments with the mass transit option designed as a centerpiece).

In the abstract, I would agree, but in this instance there are circumstances that make this BRT more likely to achieve  TOD's versus TADs.  One, the line runs through two large chucks of currently-developing land, one is called Verdae, and is a large mixed and multiple use development.  The other is the International Center for Automotive Research (ICAR).  ICAR is more employment-oriented but is mixed use as well.  Both are being designed with the ROW in mind, and with their highest densities along the ROW. 

Second, with a normal BRT, the route can be changed relatively easily.  Don't like Atlantic Blvd, move it to Beach Blvd instead.  But with the majority of the system being exclusively buses only, there is no way to change the route to other roadways without intergrating the new route into normal traffic.  This would exponentially expand the travel times, gas consumption,etc.  To me this huge disincentive, would make changing the route non-sensical.       

[tufsu1]

my comments regarding Greenville were not to say that they aren't doing some good things....and perhaps more than Jacksonville....its just not an apples-to-apples comparison...better comparisons for Jax. would be Orlando, Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Richmond, etc....

and by the way Mr. Dare...I don't drink the DVI kool-aid.....you're the one who use the 80k number they publish.....my info. is based on data from the Census and InfoUSA employment data....San Marco is nowhere close to downtown in total employment

[Ocklawaha]

Second, with a normal BRT, the route can be changed relatively easily.  Don't like Atlantic Blvd, move it to Beach Blvd instead.  But with the majority of the system being exclusively buses only, there is no way to change the route to other roadways without intergrating the new route into normal traffic.  This would exponentially expand the travel times, gas consumption,etc.  To me this huge disincentive, would make changing the route non-sensical.

True, but the highway/bus lobby has been selling bus transit for nearly 100 years, as "The Flexible Alternative." This century of preaching and teaching is rooted in every developers mind as a FACT. That "fact" is what kills TOD with BRT systems. Add in features on fixed routes like Miami-Busway, many entrances and exits for BRT buses to join the system in-route. So if 2 out of 12 routes using the BRT are not performing, we just reroute them. They no longer join the parade of buses, and service suffers along the Billion Dollar busway.
No sane developer will stake the family farm on the odds that JTA will "Do the right thing." Costs? Has anyone SEEN the price of hydrogen buses? Might as well buy AMTRAK for the City's exclusive use.  

Ocklawaha

[tufsu1]

and by the way Mr. Dare...I don't drink the DVI kool-aid.....you're the one who use the 80k number they publish.....my info. is based on data from the Census and InfoUSA employment data....San Marco is nowhere close to downtown in total employment

and just to follow up on my previous post.....2005 employment figures for San Marco and the Southbank combined are about 11,000....the downtown core alone (Jefferson to Liberty and Beaver to the river) has over 29,000

plus Stephen...you mentioned the Dalton Agency in San Marco area....aren't they the ones moving downtown who forced Boomtown out?

[Ocklawaha]

WTF? Hey, don't y'all realize that parking meters are already installed? They require almost no investment? They work like a magic gum ball machine, a few hundred dollars invested returns .25 cents per 1/2 hour forever, or at least until you drive all the customers away. Why with parking meters making up to $12.00 a day, it's an immediate income for all of Jacksonville to spend and enjoy. Contrast that with new development that would come from free parking. We might see $100's of millions of dollars in new development, but the key word is "might". So on the one hand we keep the meters and have REAL revenue today, on the other we trash the meters with the chance that someone will spend the big bucks. Just like us, take the quarter so we don't deal with the millions... besides, who in Jacksonville can count that high? Oh the humanity!

Ocklawaha

[gatorback]

is that 12.00 per mete or for all the meters combined? And then the parking ticket revenue!  Why bothers?