Skyway expansion to Sport's Complex (arena, Baseball Grounds, & Everbank Field

[Shwaz]

Looks like the TU covered this recently:

After 20 years, Jacksonville Skyway remains a punchline

The Skyway has been a Jacksonville joke for a generation.

But the underachieving, 2.5-mile elevated people mover that first opened in 1989 isn't all that funny.

Look up at its silent, almost-empty cars and you can see the failure of downtown as a place to live and work. The dingy stations reflect Jacksonville's inability to come up with a successful long-term transportation plan.

More than 20 years after it opened, the number of people who ride the Skyway remains low. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority originally promised 100,000 riders per month, but its average last year was less than a third of that.

And it loses money - a lot of money.

The system that was built for $183 million, more than half from the federal government, needs $14 million to operate each year - $1.5 million of that from Washington for maintenance alone.

In 2009, it generated only $431,000 in revenue, less than a 4 percent return. Most public transit systems lose money, but by comparison JTA's bus system made back more than 20 percent - $6.2 million - of its $30.2 million cost in 2009.

JTA says to be patient and that eventually the Skyway will be a success. The agency is counting on things breaking its way, such as vibrant downtown development and private entities who are willing to partner with JTA to expand the Skyway or build a transportation system that links to it.

Those things, though, didn't happen even in a roaring economy.

While running for mayor in 1991, Ed Austin said he wanted to stop construction on the nearly new system because of doubts it would ever work. As mayor, he changed his mind, in part because of fears - true to this day - that Washington would force JTA to pay back the money it had gotten.

Last month, Austin said he still thinks it was a mistake.

"It could work if you get more people downtown," he said. "But it would take a major revitalization of the downtown for that to happen."

Whose line is it, anyway?

Most of today's Skyway ridership appears to be on the northern section, between Hemming Plaza and Florida State College at Jacksonville.

Stations at Jefferson Street on the Northside and Riverplace Boulevard and Kings Avenue on the Southside are a good place to enjoy some peace and quiet.

A fire shut down the Riverplace station last year for several months until about $270,000 in repairs were made. No one seemed to notice, or care.

And yet it has its supporters.

Brian Presley takes the Skyway from San Marco to the Central Station most weekdays while commuting to his office in the Wachovia Building. It's cheaper for him take the Skyway than park in a downtown parking garage.

"I think the Skyway is a good idea that badly needs to be expanded," he said.

Beth Slater enjoys taking the Skyway from the Southbank into downtown, especially when she's showing the city to out-of-town visitors and newcomers.

"Occasionally I get the feeling I'm in a different city," Slater said, "or that Jacksonville has a grasp on public transit."

She just wishes the ride wasn't so short.

And that's the problem, said Ken Button, director of the Center for Transportation Policy, Operations and Logistics at George Mason University in Virginia. Urban people movers need to travel farther to be effective.

"It's the type of system that works great at Disneyland or at an airport when there are not other options available," Button said. "But people in downtown areas won't ride it when they have other options."

How, and why, it began

In the 1970s, local leaders thought they had a great idea.

Concerned with congestion on roads and toll bridges, air pollution and a lack of parking, Jacksonville transportation planners came to believe another option was needed for getting people into downtown.

The solution? A 4.4-mile people-mover system that would connect the medical centers on Eighth Street with Riverside, San Marco and the Gator Bowl.

The federal government was willing, having already put up money for similar elevated people movers in Miami and Detroit. And although Jacksonville wasn't able to get enough money to build the whole route, after years of twists and turns, it built the first stretch of the 2.5-mile downtown line that exists today.

Former Mayor Jake Godbold championed the Skyway and was in office when the city was awarded the first federal grant in 1985. He said he now regrets it.

"The business community thought it would help the downtown," Godbold said. "But if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have pushed for it."

The system was built on the assumption that growth would continue downtown and that didn't happen, said former Mayor Tommy Hazouri.

"We all assumed people would always come downtown to go shopping," he said. "We didn't anticipate something like the St. Johns Town Center."

JTA and the city should have focused on a system that took people from the suburbs into the downtown, Hazouri said.

Instead, JTA wanted the city to limit downtown parking, which it said would have encouraged people to take the Skyway. That plan made its way into some of the city's long-term comprehensive plans but was never enforced.

In fact, it was reversed.

Available parking has probably doubled in downtown since the 1980s, said Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission. Keeping cars out of downtown was never a priority, he said.

Then there was the stadium idea.

A line to the Gator Bowl was on JTA's initial plans and remained on the drawing board until as recently as 2002. JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock tabled it, saying the system needed to be successful before it expanded.

Former Mayor John Delaney said it should have been the other way around.

"The Skyway was built in the wrong place," he said, "and will not work until an extension is done to connect it to the football stadium."

Failure is not an option

Despite the Skyway's shortcomings, no local leader has called for it to be torn down.

It would probably cost tens of millions of dollars, and JTA estimates it would have to pay about $90 million back to the federal government if it did.

It would also hold the city back from getting money for projects it actually needs.

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., the ranking Republican on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.

"It would go to the end of the line for everything," Mica said.

But that shouldn't be an issue, because there's nothing wrong with the Skyway, Mica said. It is supposed to connect to other modes of public transportation, those have never been built, and that is why the Skyway looks like a bad idea, he said.

"A lot of cities would love to have a system like the Skyway," Mica said "It would probably cost $500 million to install something similar today."

Blaylock said he would fight to keep the Skyway even if the federal government didn't care about getting its money back.

"Shutting down the Skyway is like turning your back on downtown," he said. "I can't do that."

But downtown may have already turned its back on the Skyway. Although the system needs downtown redevelopment to thrive, the feeling is not mutual.

Barton said its success or failure is not expected to have much impact on redevelopment. In fact, the Skyway's presence on Hogan Street may be making it harder to attract businesses downtown.

"Recognizing its marginal use," Barton said, "you certainly could make an argument that the Skyway has reduced the value of some properties it goes past."

What the future holds

Hazouri ties the success of the Skyway to efforts to revitalize downtown.

"Get people living and working downtown," Hazouri said, "and everything changes."

He's not alone in that view.

Steve Arrington, JTA director of resource management, said more people who work in the downtown are choosing to live closer to where they work. This is causing communities like Riverside, Springfield and San Marco to flourish. That will lead to more congested roads and parking downtown - and, Arrington believes, create a need for the Skyway with people parking at the Prime Osborn Convention Center parking lots and at the Kings Avenue parking garage on the Southside.

The Skyway has seen an uptick in ridership recently, and Arrington said that is largely due to more people living and working close to downtown.

Next, connecting the Skyway to other forms of transit is a necessity. Blaylock said that includes getting a commuter rail system built that will take people from the suburbs to the Prime Osborn - and getting federal money to build it.

A recent study found that a system could be built for about $600 million, and JTA hopes to get the money to build it within the next 10 years. Mica said JTA has a good chance because the Obama administration is pushing for more rail.

JTA might also pursue a fixed-rail trolley system to get downtown pedestrians to areas the Skyway does not go, such as Shands, EverBank Field and Riverside. A public-private partnership would be sought to get this done, Blaylock said.

The Metromover in Miami, which has a similar design to the Skyway, is a good model for eventual success Jacksonville, Mica said.

Opened in 1986 and extended in 1994, the 4.4-mile Metromover averaged 660,000 riders a month in 2009. The downtown system connects to Miami Metrorail, which goes to the outskirts of the city.

The Metromover, which cost $23.3 million to operate in 2009, is free of charge because of a half-penny sales tax Miami-Dade County voters passed in 2002.

The Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

Back in those days, former JTA Chairman Arnold Tritt, responding to continued criticism that the Skyway was costing too much, predicted that history would vindicate the agency.

"I really think in the year 2020, 2010 ... whenever," Tritt said, "people are going to say, 'What visionaries!' "

No one has, yet.

larry.hannan@jacksonville.com (904) 359-4470

Interesting tidbit I didn't know

he Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

[Ocklawaha]

While I'll argue till I'm dead that a heritage streetcar would have carried about 5x the traffic from day one, plus created a couple of BILLION in new development, there is just no excuse for the epic failure of the Skyway.

Never building the recommended route from the stadium through the government center to Central Station, or from Riverside (which btw was supposed to be next to PS-4). The north-south line doesn't even enter the campus of FSCJ and even if they don't want a station, a station COULD BE built on the north end where students and Bethel Baptist folks could easily gain access without getting mowed down by speeding cars on Union Street. Shand's the VA Clinic, Baptist Hospital, Wolfson, Nemours, Ronald McDonald, Hilton, Atlantic at the FEC... all missed opportunities.

Until some future mayor-council has the testosterone to stand up and push this thing to completion based on the original plan, we'll never be able to accurately gauge it's success or failure.

For the shocker? I'll wager that the Skyway even as impotent as it is today, is still the highest (or damn close) Passenger Per Mile transit route in the City.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

For the shocker? I'll wager that the Skyway even as impotent as it is today, is still the highest (or damn close) Passenger Per Mile transit route in the City.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock.........I won't take that bet! But it can not help but be...........how long 2.5 Miles? Makes sense to me!

[Ocklawaha]

So how bad does the Skyway's ridership suck??

Well for two route miles, it gets over 2,000 daily riders, lets just call it 1,000 per mile-per day.

Every year JTA buses cover 8.5 million route miles...

Are you still with me?

If each bus carried the same load as the Skyway daily, the annual JTA Bus ridership would be about

853,000,000

or roughly

2,300,000 passengers DAILY.

Sucks don't it?

OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

Looks like the TU covered this recently:

After 20 years, Jacksonville Skyway remains a punchline

The Skyway has been a Jacksonville joke for a generation.

But the underachieving, 2.5-mile elevated people mover that first opened in 1989 isn't all that funny.

Look up at its silent, almost-empty cars and you can see the failure of downtown as a place to live and work. The dingy stations reflect Jacksonville's inability to come up with a successful long-term transportation plan.

More than 20 years after it opened, the number of people who ride the Skyway remains low. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority originally promised 100,000 riders per month, but its average last year was less than a third of that.

And it loses money - a lot of money.

The system that was built for $183 million, more than half from the federal government, needs $14 million to operate each year - $1.5 million of that from Washington for maintenance alone.

In 2009, it generated only $431,000 in revenue, less than a 4 percent return. Most public transit systems lose money, but by comparison JTA's bus system made back more than 20 percent - $6.2 million - of its $30.2 million cost in 2009.

JTA says to be patient and that eventually the Skyway will be a success. The agency is counting on things breaking its way, such as vibrant downtown development and private entities who are willing to partner with JTA to expand the Skyway or build a transportation system that links to it.

Those things, though, didn't happen even in a roaring economy.

While running for mayor in 1991, Ed Austin said he wanted to stop construction on the nearly new system because of doubts it would ever work. As mayor, he changed his mind, in part because of fears - true to this day - that Washington would force JTA to pay back the money it had gotten.

Last month, Austin said he still thinks it was a mistake.

"It could work if you get more people downtown," he said. "But it would take a major revitalization of the downtown for that to happen."

Whose line is it, anyway?

Most of today's Skyway ridership appears to be on the northern section, between Hemming Plaza and Florida State College at Jacksonville.

Stations at Jefferson Street on the Northside and Riverplace Boulevard and Kings Avenue on the Southside are a good place to enjoy some peace and quiet.

A fire shut down the Riverplace station last year for several months until about $270,000 in repairs were made. No one seemed to notice, or care.

And yet it has its supporters.

Brian Presley takes the Skyway from San Marco to the Central Station most weekdays while commuting to his office in the Wachovia Building. It's cheaper for him take the Skyway than park in a downtown parking garage.

"I think the Skyway is a good idea that badly needs to be expanded," he said.

Beth Slater enjoys taking the Skyway from the Southbank into downtown, especially when she's showing the city to out-of-town visitors and newcomers.

"Occasionally I get the feeling I'm in a different city," Slater said, "or that Jacksonville has a grasp on public transit."

She just wishes the ride wasn't so short.

And that's the problem, said Ken Button, director of the Center for Transportation Policy, Operations and Logistics at George Mason University in Virginia. Urban people movers need to travel farther to be effective.

"It's the type of system that works great at Disneyland or at an airport when there are not other options available," Button said. "But people in downtown areas won't ride it when they have other options."

How, and why, it began

In the 1970s, local leaders thought they had a great idea.

Concerned with congestion on roads and toll bridges, air pollution and a lack of parking, Jacksonville transportation planners came to believe another option was needed for getting people into downtown.

The solution? A 4.4-mile people-mover system that would connect the medical centers on Eighth Street with Riverside, San Marco and the Gator Bowl.

The federal government was willing, having already put up money for similar elevated people movers in Miami and Detroit. And although Jacksonville wasn't able to get enough money to build the whole route, after years of twists and turns, it built the first stretch of the 2.5-mile downtown line that exists today.

Former Mayor Jake Godbold championed the Skyway and was in office when the city was awarded the first federal grant in 1985. He said he now regrets it.

"The business community thought it would help the downtown," Godbold said. "But if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have pushed for it."

The system was built on the assumption that growth would continue downtown and that didn't happen, said former Mayor Tommy Hazouri.

"We all assumed people would always come downtown to go shopping," he said. "We didn't anticipate something like the St. Johns Town Center."

JTA and the city should have focused on a system that took people from the suburbs into the downtown, Hazouri said.

Instead, JTA wanted the city to limit downtown parking, which it said would have encouraged people to take the Skyway. That plan made its way into some of the city's long-term comprehensive plans but was never enforced.

In fact, it was reversed.

Available parking has probably doubled in downtown since the 1980s, said Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission. Keeping cars out of downtown was never a priority, he said.

Then there was the stadium idea.

A line to the Gator Bowl was on JTA's initial plans and remained on the drawing board until as recently as 2002. JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock tabled it, saying the system needed to be successful before it expanded.

Former Mayor John Delaney said it should have been the other way around.

"The Skyway was built in the wrong place," he said, "and will not work until an extension is done to connect it to the football stadium."

Failure is not an option

Despite the Skyway's shortcomings, no local leader has called for it to be torn down.

It would probably cost tens of millions of dollars, and JTA estimates it would have to pay about $90 million back to the federal government if it did.

It would also hold the city back from getting money for projects it actually needs.

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., the ranking Republican on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.

"It would go to the end of the line for everything," Mica said.

But that shouldn't be an issue, because there's nothing wrong with the Skyway, Mica said. It is supposed to connect to other modes of public transportation, those have never been built, and that is why the Skyway looks like a bad idea, he said.

"A lot of cities would love to have a system like the Skyway," Mica said "It would probably cost $500 million to install something similar today."

Blaylock said he would fight to keep the Skyway even if the federal government didn't care about getting its money back.

"Shutting down the Skyway is like turning your back on downtown," he said. "I can't do that."

But downtown may have already turned its back on the Skyway. Although the system needs downtown redevelopment to thrive, the feeling is not mutual.

Barton said its success or failure is not expected to have much impact on redevelopment. In fact, the Skyway's presence on Hogan Street may be making it harder to attract businesses downtown.

"Recognizing its marginal use," Barton said, "you certainly could make an argument that the Skyway has reduced the value of some properties it goes past."

What the future holds

Hazouri ties the success of the Skyway to efforts to revitalize downtown.

"Get people living and working downtown," Hazouri said, "and everything changes."

He's not alone in that view.

Steve Arrington, JTA director of resource management, said more people who work in the downtown are choosing to live closer to where they work. This is causing communities like Riverside, Springfield and San Marco to flourish. That will lead to more congested roads and parking downtown - and, Arrington believes, create a need for the Skyway with people parking at the Prime Osborn Convention Center parking lots and at the Kings Avenue parking garage on the Southside.

The Skyway has seen an uptick in ridership recently, and Arrington said that is largely due to more people living and working close to downtown.

Next, connecting the Skyway to other forms of transit is a necessity. Blaylock said that includes getting a commuter rail system built that will take people from the suburbs to the Prime Osborn - and getting federal money to build it.

A recent study found that a system could be built for about $600 million, and JTA hopes to get the money to build it within the next 10 years. Mica said JTA has a good chance because the Obama administration is pushing for more rail.

JTA might also pursue a fixed-rail trolley system to get downtown pedestrians to areas the Skyway does not go, such as Shands, EverBank Field and Riverside. A public-private partnership would be sought to get this done, Blaylock said.

The Metromover in Miami, which has a similar design to the Skyway, is a good model for eventual success Jacksonville, Mica said.

Opened in 1986 and extended in 1994, the 4.4-mile Metromover averaged 660,000 riders a month in 2009. The downtown system connects to Miami Metrorail, which goes to the outskirts of the city.

The Metromover, which cost $23.3 million to operate in 2009, is free of charge because of a half-penny sales tax Miami-Dade County voters passed in 2002.

The Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

Back in those days, former JTA Chairman Arnold Tritt, responding to continued criticism that the Skyway was costing too much, predicted that history would vindicate the agency.

"I really think in the year 2020, 2010 ... whenever," Tritt said, "people are going to say, 'What visionaries!' "

No one has, yet.

larry.hannan@jacksonville.com (904) 359-4470

Interesting tidbit I didn't know

he Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

SomeONE here has friends in local media and that is unfortunate. The person on this forum spreading those lies andencouraging this sort of article would make a great politician. I mean some of the lies were word for word, quote for quote...now it really isnt funny.

[stjr]

For the shocker? I'll wager that the Skyway even as impotent as it is today, is still the highest (or damn close) Passenger Per Mile transit route in the City.

Ock, LOL.  I thought at first you were touting that the Skyway is the highest COST per passenger per mile!  It damn well better be the most traveled route miles in the JTA system.  Even so, it is still a financial disaster with its terrible return on investment as measured, not by dollars, but VALUE to the community.  But, then, I think most taxpayers already know that.  

[Ocklawaha]

SomeONE here has friends in local media and that is unfortunate.

Don't know about that, but MJ has sat down with the City Council, Blaylock, The Mayor, editors, reporters, writers, camera crews etc. for the last 5 years. We have done studies that would have cost the city a cool million, and besides thousands of pages of public comment, several informational videos. So I wouldn't be at all surprised that some of these guys sound like Parrots, guess that means we ARE doing our jobs.


OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

Well I hate the Gators I wish I had friends at the paper to help spread my hatred....but I dont know anyone at FTU. Bummer.

[civil42806]

What's wrong with the Stadium Shuttle that is currently available for Jaguars games? Sports Illustrated named it the NFL's top shuttle service a year or two ago. Seems to work pretty well to me. Much better than paying $20 and dealing with all the traffic.

ha ha ha ha ha Thats a good one.

Whats so funny about that a large number of people use the buses at the convention center including myself when I'm in town.  Lot easier than waiting for a slow moving people mover that holds a marginal number of people.  Thats why I asked what number of people could the riderless express move in a short period of time compared to the running of buses those 8 weeks.  Sure Ock could shed some light on that.  

[stjr]

SomeONE here has friends in local media and that is unfortunate.

Don't know about that, but MJ has sat down with the City Council, Blaylock, The Mayor, editors, reporters, writers, camera crews etc. for the last 5 years. We have done studies that would have cost the city a cool million, and besides thousands of pages of public comment, several informational videos. So I wouldn't be at all surprised that some of these guys sound like Parrots, guess that means we ARE doing our jobs.

I actually thought the article was reasonably balanced.  It captured most of the arguments, pro and con, posted in MJ threads.  This is likely due to the fact that the Skyway has thoroughly been debated here and in every forum in the community and among its citizens.

Any mimicking of MJ positions hopefully means MJ is doing its job at presenting BOTH sides of issues in the community.  Unfortunately, it doesn't help MJ, its readers, or the debate, that some resort to name calling and accusations toward those who disagree with their positions, calling opponents liars, manipulators with devious intentions, insincere, fabricators, avoiders, trolls, public saboteurs, dishonest presenters, etc.  This lack of substance only debases those hurling the accusations and shows the MJ moderators are asleep at the wheel.

[Coolyfett]

lol

[Coolyfett]

The TU article is making statements as fact, facts that are actually lies. Many old people still read news rags and will believe those lies as golden. Thats a very dangerous thing. Its kinda like Fox News & The PRESIDENT of the United States or Jacksonville Jaguars have no fans according to ESPN, Sport Illustrated & Radio Sports Talk....it creates a snowball of things that are just not true. Anyone that could co sign a rigged article has some real issues. Even MacGuyver thinks they rigged that article nicely.

[Coolyfett]

Anyway Shwaz posted that in the wrong thread and we all are hijacking it.....back to the discussion.

Extention of Skyway to Sports Complex.

[jacksoninjax]

Whats the estimate cost of expanding the skyway out to the stadium/arena complex?  Who will be riding it?  The only way you'll get jaguar fans on it is if you do away with the bus service, and really its only 8 weekends a year.  What the max people it could transport in an hour and a half?    Lets face it after a couple hours of tailgating, then the game, the goal of most people is to get home.  Baseball games?  I doubt it, there is more than enough surface parking for those and most of the events in the arena.  Now the gator bowl and the fl-ga game I could see that working well.  But all that depends on the cost estimate.  I don't see expanding to the stadiums as being a panacea or even significantly increasing the ridership when taking the extra cost into account.

You're right, expanding the Skyway to the sports complex won't be a "panacea."  However, it will be a step in the right direction.  Whether we like it or not, the Skyway exists and, as I see it, the city (JTA) has three options.

1. Don't expand it and accept the fact that it will always lose money and will forever remain downtown's white elephant.
2. Tear it down and pretend it was all a bad dream.  
3. Bite the bullet and expand it to the sports complex in order to generate higher and consistent ridership and, in turn, more revenue.  

Sure, there will be costs associated with an expansion.  But that's much better than Option 1 (stagnant ridership and little chance of increased revenue) and Option 2 (re-paying the federal government millions of dollars in grant money as a penalty for dismantling the Skyway).  

Also, the use wouldn’t be limited to home football games.  What about events at Metro Park, concerts at the Arena, Jax Sun’s baseball games, Florida-Georgia game, and the Jax Fair?  As I've mentioned, there is a huge disconnect between the sports complex and the rest of downtown (Northbank, Landing and Southbank).  How great would it be if people actually used the outlining parking areas (including the Kings Avenue garage) and took the Skyway to the sports complex, with the option of stopping along the way at restaurants and nightclubs (and hopefully one day the Shipyards complex) that will surely begin the sprout up along the Bay Street and Forsyth Street corridors.    

[stjr]

Want to talk about misleading statements and unanswered questions, Stephen, why don't you address these:

-Skyway projections by the "experts" for the system as CURRENTLY BUILT, off 90+% after 20 years with no explanation.

-Multiple mayors wishing the system was never built but never did anything to contain the "damage".

-Original approving Congressional committee chair saying the whole project was nothing but pork barrel (Translation:  It was never thought to be viable and was only built as a political bone so we should not be surprised it isn't viable so far and should consider it never will be)

-City leaders saying it would enhance downtown development when now they say its proven to do just the opposite.

-Expenses off the charts when measured against original promises, comparable transit systems, or in absolute dollars per ride with no projections showing the results would change with additional investment.

-JTA not publishing on its web site for two years current financials.

-Your misrepresentation of my position on mass transit, roads, and just about anything else you throw about to distract from the real debate on the Skyway.

-Your unwillingness to account for the amortization through depreciation of all capital costs, whether up front, on a replacement basis, or as further investment in expansion.

-Lack of written documentation for public consumption establishing what happens with the Skyway if it's shut down and addressing the question, if its a failed DEMONSTRATION system, when and why we can't finally exit it without a penalty (its obvious this provision, IF it exists and IF there was any desire, politically, to enforce it, would not last forever).

-Why people movers like this have failed to meet anything close to cost-benefit expectations in every city (including cities with bigger populations and more developed mass transit systems) they have been built in and why no more are being built?

-Why ridership has gone down regardless of economic cycles?

-Why you reduce your arguments to name calling rather than tackle the above questions with fact based answers?

-Why you call out any opposing arguments on the Skyway lies but never state exactly what the lies are?  (A contributing factor may be your inability to distinguish opinions from statements of fact).

The reason you don't understand my desire to abandon the Skyway is because you don't understand how to financially and politically evaluate it in more than one light and think its success is just around the corner (now running on decades of such failed promises with no change in sight) rather than maybe never or, at best, decades and hundreds of millions dollars more in operating losses later.

Regardless, your emotionally charged position is akin to a baby crying because he can't have his way.  I can only LOL when I read your posts because they seem to be so much more self descriptive of your own antics and are way beyond being taken seriously.  I only bother to respond because new readers enter the fray regularly and I would hate for them to be left with only your take on things.  Now that would be misleading.