Battle Over Huge Costs of Public Pensions

[CS Foltz]

Gentlemen.................don't forget about "Naples" and what they have done! We should be so lucky to have leadership like they do! They started several years ago to get their ducks ina row and what do we have going......the GOB Network and the Nifty Fifty siphoning off of the top! Time for a big change and this voter is going to do his part fellas!

[stjr]

lol, old friend.  I respect your opinion and input like few others, so dont let you panties get so wadded up!

Don't worry, Stephen, I have thicker skin than that.  It's just sometimes you "argue" in a manner that really can't be logically responded to.  At that point, I have to abandon your ship.

I tend not to be an extremist on anything (I guess that puts me in the moderate category) and savor playing devil's advocate as I can usually see two or more sides to any subject.  I will often post when I see someone going to far over to one side or the other without regard to other viewpoints.

Unfortunately, I see many flying back at me with reflexive, knee jerk reactions that are emotionally charged, entrenched in the status quo, and/or beyond logic or the actual facts.  Due to limits in time and energy, at some point I will just move on leaving my feeble posts for those who wish to ponder them and not caring much more about those who don't.

I guess if I have an agenda, it's to confront the over simplified, sound-bite based views to the extreme limits that are now dividing this country and our society.  Not healthy or sustainable for our secure and prosperous future.  Time to bring back the voice of reason.

[NotNow]

Perhaps you can untack them and spare me the indignity of agreeing with NotNow on anything.

Think of how I feel!  I suddenly feel the need to go wash off! 

[NotNow]

stjr,

I am not disregarding your arguments, but I'm looking for some basis of fact in them.  You suggest that public employee's are "MORE-than-fair" compensated yet you offer no facts to back up that statement.  You say that your "comparison is NOT to other plans of public employees, but to TOTAL compensation (salary AND benefits together) in the marketplace AT LARGE (i.e. across all employment opportunities available in the private AND public sectors that compete for the services which the subject personnel offer and qualify for)."  That sounds like "I think ya'll just make too much" to me.  There is not now nor has there ever been any measurement of compensation based on "TOTAL compensation (salary AND benefits together) in the marketplace AT LARGE".  Who's compensation is (or can be) based on such a thing?  The only proper way to compare salaries is just as I said, a comparison of like professions in like cities in the same region.  Comparable cities to Jax in Florida are Miami, Tampa, and Orlando.  I offer real facts and hard numbers, what I see in your definition is your idea of public "opinion".  Please tell me where I am wrong.

You offered two arguments earlier, "I gave two answers to this when I posted above.  One, the market for these candidates for these jobs has shifted below current package levels.  And, two, actuarial assumptions previously made may need to be updated and revalued. Both of these considerations occur in the private sector or a company will not remain competitive."  

Show me the research that indicates that the value of QUALIFIED candidates has shifted below the current package level (the lowest of Florida's major cities).  I have shown again and again that by the only FACTUAL measure, the compensation package drives qualified candidates to other cities.  

And if "actuarial assumptions" may need to be updated, then why hasn't that been done BEFORE attempting to break a contract?  Instead, city leaders choose to just demonize public employees in the media.  This from a city that loves to fund a "study".  Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[Ranger7]

When was the last time a firefighter here left for a better job?

[NotNow]

I don't have any access to those records, do you?  I can tell you that we lose several Police Officers per year to better jobs.

[Ranger7]

I assume those records are public.  The logical person to look at them would be a T-U reporter.  So far, the paper has done a terrible job of providing meaningful info.  At least they now hint at the extreme pressure by the police & fire unions on our elected politicians. 

[NotNow]

I agree, the T-U could do a better job.  The purpose of the IAFF and the FOP is to protect Firefighters and Police Officers.  They are doing what they are supposed to do.  Frankly they have at least provided some facts in this debate.  I realize there is always some of the "hero" rhetoric coming out of them, but they will largely point to the stat's or history that proves their point.  Compensation and Pension Fund is a solid numbers debate.  Is Jax compensation fair?  Every profession in America uses "like" comparisons to decide fairness of salary.  The City of Jacksonville just recently did the same thing for middle management, and has often compared senior executive salary in other Florida cities to justify the salary they were paying.  Now, suddenly, it doesn't matter what happens in other cities, if the cops and firemen don't take a pay cut they are "not pulling their weight"?  Everyone knows that the city took several "Pension Holidays" on their pension payments and yet now the cops and firemen have a "Cadillac Pension"? Give me a break. 

The city wants to break two contracts this week.  They want to give the Jags $4M that should contractually go to the city coffers.  And they want break a contract with the Police & Fire Pension to reduce benefits and increase contributions and fees to Police Officers and Firefighters because....the city coffers are empty. 

I'll be the first to admit that I am a layman on this subject.  stjr seems to have some education and experience in this area and I am willing to listen to a LOGICAL argument with some facts involved.  Something more than "I think they make too much" or "unsustainable retirement".  Tell me why and show me how.

[Dog Walker]

If a person thinks that the police pay and pensions are the root cause of our budget woes then they need to take a look at the thread about the parking garages.  THERE is revealed the true cause because there are lots of deals like that out there.  The courthouse mess has more tentacles than an octopus.