Can Downtown Survive?

[ChriswUfGator]

If all of the buildings downtown are so empty, why is the vacancy rate less than 25 percent?

Vacancy rates are much higher than 25%.

This is the same as the myth of the 51,000 workers downtown. Nobody is in a hurry to acknowledge the true sad state of affairs with regard to the utter death of our urban core and the insane vacancy rates because it would just create a cycle of scaring off prospective new occupants.

You already got called out for citing to 6yr+ old data in this debate, but I honestly can't fault you for it, since the sad truth is that you're actually quoting one of the newer figures available. Not that it being *only* the better part of a decade old makes it any less inaccurate, but the probalem is that nobody's in a hurry to acknowledge (much less publish) any of this stuff, which makes it hard to find accurate information.

The landlords aren't in a hurry to help, since if they happen to mention half their building is empty, it's not going to make the lease negotiations go particularly well for them. DVI and COJ, as the architects of this disaster, have a vested interest in minimizing the appearance of the damage. Nobody involved has any real interest in making the true state of affairs known, and you have to acknowledge and plan around that when addressing this issue.

Anyone with a pair of eyes can see how bad off things are down there. There are a grand total of like 6 non-homeless pedestrians at any given time of day, there isn't much traffic except for State and Union (and those people are only using the Regency/Arlington connector to 95, they aren't there for downtown), and every building is either completely empty, or a lot of it is empty with big "Available" or "For Lease" signs in front. It seriously looks like Raccoon City after the outbreak....

And our wonderful city government is more worried about handing out parking tickets to the handful of people who still bother to go down there, than with fixing any of the problems. Yeah, that's a solution for sure!

[braeburn]

The vacancy rate is definitely NOT less than 25%. When I walk through downtown during the week after 6 or 7 PM it is a dead zone. It is very much akin to the "rapture" occurring... but I got left behind! Even during the day there is a sense of "emptiness" echoing through this graveyard of buildings.

I am surprised to see people posting in this thread acting as if there is nothing wrong with this city and seem to prefer the status quo. Well! It is time to drop our shorts and whip out the rulers and make an honest assessment of what really is happening to our fair city.

Although, perhaps I am confusing blind optimism with being jaded...

If I did not have Springfield, Riverside/Avondale and San Marco to go to, I would be just as lost as the city itself. Either that or go completely bonkers! Or both.

[tufsu1]

You already got called out for citing to 6yr+ old data in this debate, but I honestly can't fault you for it, since the sad truth is that you're actually quoting one of the newer figures available.

correct...the detailed data (down to address level) used to validate the model for the LRTP was from 2005.  Having moved to downtown in early 2006 (watching it change first hand), it just doesn't seem plausible that the workforce in the core has dropped from 20,000 to 6,000.....

But then you "moved the bar" by not counting the 6,000 public employees downtown, so maybe you're really saying there are 12,000 workers in the downtown core.

Either way, I'm trying to get information on real numbers for 2009/2010 and should have something by tomorrow.

[Jaxson]

some floors in those buildings are mechanical floors....every tower has them. So not all floors are leaseable. This is a very sad discussion and just shows how far our Downtown has fallen....neglected by our elected officials, sure we got fancy public venues, but where the heck is the civic pride from companies! So many lost opportunities. Deutsche Bank just to name one! I do not understand how or why the City can't convince some of these guys to locate Downtown. It seems to me someone isnt doing their job properly. How are we supposed to sell commuter rail to FTA? build it and they will come?

Union Station REBIRTH in Washington DC exactly because it is the crossroads of a city.


"JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL," wouldn't this beat the hell out of the empty "Prime Osbourne?"


Here is a scene of the Tunnels under Washington Union Station today!


This is a photo of the Tunnels under Jacksonville Union Station today! ...and questions?

I think this is easy FSUJAX. STREETCAR will create infill development, we've proved that over and over and over all across the USA, and Jacksonville will be no different. That said, Commuter Rail will tie all of the far flung community together and uniquely lucky for us, (unlike Tampa, Orlando, West Palm, or Miami) Every major road and railroad crosses the river DOWNTOWN, just outside of our future Jacksonville Terminal, Amtrak-Commuter Rail Station. So even if every last office leaves downtown, the streetcar infill will provide a boom of retail, restaurant, attraction, hospitality and housing spaces we haven't seen since 1932.  The guy living in the Westside, and working at the Avenues will be rolling through downtown on the Commuter Rail, further boosting the retail, restaurant trades downtown and exposing the attractions and hospitality to thousands of new customers through word of mouth.


OCKLAWAHA

Washington's Union Station is a very inspiring place, indeed.  I like to travel by train and I always enjoy it when I have an extended layover in the nation's capital.  Not only is there an abundance of retail and dining, the station is located where I can roam around the city and play tourist.  During one train stop, I wandered into the Supreme Court building to observe the justices announce a ruling.  Another time I was in town, I got to see a motorcade carrying Chile's president from the Capitol. 

I have repeatedly complained about how terrible our current Amtrak station is.  I feel like I have been beating my head against a wall because it seems that nobody (outside of Ock and me) actually want to have a thriving passenger rail station that could help us bring some life to downtown Jacksonville.  It would be nice to find a city leader who actually gave a crap.  Well, I will have to dream on...

[tufsu1]

sorry, wait a minute, tufsu.  Sadly you have made too many exploded claims in regard to this issue, and Im afraid it would be irresponsible to simply accept this latest claim that there are 6000 city employees located in the northbank of downtown.

I didn't say 6000 city employees....I sad 6000 public employees....remember there are state employees downtown...and how many people do you surmise work in the federal courthouse building?

[JC]

Washington's Union Station is a very inspiring place, indeed.  I like to travel by train and I always enjoy it when I have an extended layover in the nation's capital.  Not only is there an abundance of retail and dining, the station is located where I can roam around the city and play tourist.  During one train stop, I wandered into the Supreme Court building to observe the justices announce a ruling.  Another time I was in town, I got to see a motorcade carrying Chile's president from the Capitol. 

I have repeatedly complained about how terrible our current Amtrak station is.  I feel like I have been beating my head against a wall because it seems that nobody (outside of Ock and me) actually want to have a thriving passenger rail station that could help us bring some life to downtown Jacksonville.  It would be nice to find a city leader who actually gave a crap.  Well, I will have to dream on...

Union station is pretty awesome.  But really my favorite part of DC Metro is the Rosslyn Station escalator!  Its like 4 or 5 stories high and is continuous!

[tufsu1]

I usually refrain from surmising in the lack of empirical data, tufsu.  You should try that sometime.

perhaps we can refrain from the insults...at least until the newest empirical data is in

[02roadking]

FYI. All my COJ friends say that they DO PAY for their own parking DT. At least the rank & file folks.

[fieldafm]

Yeah, most COJ people pay to park.

The summer interns have a free parking plan, but its not guaranteed parking... I believe they get free access to overflow parking in a particular lot.

I heard Stephen mention a 6k figure once, and I couldnt believe it either.  If I ever get free time this week I want to explore those figures more.

[ChriswUfGator]

Well there isn't a lot of data, unfortunately. And what is published is woefully out-of-date. So I don't see much sense in using 6-year old figures, when much of the commercial desertion has occurred in that very same intervening time period. Scads of employers have pulled out in the past 6 years, including some real biggies like Humana, who sold their tower and left because of parking.

And more are splitting right now, even as we speak, like Modis and Life of the South, for the very same reasons. I am not sure why some people want to defend the current parking policies, as there is simply that nothing that makes sense about them, and those policies are literally strangling the core. I guess maybe we will just have to wait for the updated stats to get an exact body/damage count. But I don't think it's anywhere near 18,000, and anyone with a working set of eyes who's ever been downtown already knows that.

But one thing I do find helpful is doing commercial property searches on the internet, and looking at the asking prices for things in the downtown areas of Jacksonville. The going rates for everything ranging from smallish offices to huge 20-story skyscrapers seem to indicate that the "smart money" has a far less-than-optimistic outlook for our urban core. People lie all the time, but the market as a whole rarely does.

[tufsu1]

well since the market doesn't lie, try this data...

"Jacksonville’s office vacancy rates remain in the 20 percent range, says Cushman & Wakefield. As of June, office space downtown was 22.5 percent vacant, led by 26.1 percent on the Northbank. Suburban office vacancy was 23.4 percent, as was the vacancy in the largest market, Butler/Baymeadows"

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php?id=531360

[ChriswUfGator]

well since the market doesn't lie, try this data...

"Jacksonville’s office vacancy rates remain in the 20 percent range, says Cushman & Wakefield. As of June, office space downtown was 22.5 percent vacant, led by 26.1 percent on the Northbank. Suburban office vacancy was 23.4 percent, as was the vacancy in the largest market, Butler/Baymeadows"

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php?id=531360

They're a landlord, just like I already said in one of my earlier posts, of course the landlords are going to cook up skewed stats, since otherwise they'd be undermining their own negotiating position when they're trying to sign tenants. "Oh yeah, we have 1,000 vacant buildings down in that $h!thole, take your pick...soon...PLEASE!!!!" isn't the best posture.

And that doesn't account for the real problem here, which is lack of workers. When you have 50 people or less occupying a 20k square foot floor of an allegedly class-A skyscraper because the tenant has all but pulled out and is just waiting for the lease to expire, that won't be counted towards the vacancy rates, but still clearly indicates a dead or dying urban environment.

[Fallen Buckeye]

No matter the exact numbers, the downtown workforce is at unsatisfactory level. I'm more interested in projects and policies that will spur smart growth in the core. I like the idea having a compact grand terminal at Prime Osbourne and I would be all in favor of relocating the convention to the present courthouse site.

Here's some other thoughts about how other projects might contribute to a revitalized DT:
-Honestly, I don't see the Met Park improvements as very beneficial to DT because it's so isolated.
-At Friendship Park I would like to see the fountain fixed and possibly some modest improvements to that area, but I don't see it as high priority. I would rather see this project scaled down to invest the money elsewhere.
-Adding streetcar connecting DT to adjacent neighborhoods would be a great investment and I hope that streetcar line Ocklawaha mentioned comes to fruition as quickly as possible.
-I would love to see the Shipyards property converted into temporary parkspace so that the property is at least contributing to the quality of life DT until it can be developed. This would also be a great chance to expand the Riverwalk towards the stadium. I wouldn't build any permanent structures on the site that could impede future development. Just a large green that could be used in a way similar to how the green on memorial park is used. Maybe there could be a fishing pier or something too.

Also, is there any kind of dedicated fund/organization to aid small business start-ups in DT?

[tufsu1]

They're a landlord, just like I already said in one of my earlier posts, of course the landlords are going to cook up skewed stats, since otherwise they'd be undermining their own negotiating position when they're trying to sign tenants.

sorry, but Cushman & Wakefield is not a landlord...they are the premier commercial real estate services firm in the country (if not the world).

http://www.cushwake.com/cwglobal/jsp/globalHomeSSO.jsp

[JC]

People need to live and work downtown!  Jacksonville should create and fund a limited program for say 1000 people to subsidize their rent based on a sliding scale.  People who are willing to live downtown will use the services and patronize the business in the city limits.  This can be a coalition funded by business groups, charity organizations and city government. 

Lets say this were done for 1000 people and the median income were around 40,000 you are talking $40,000,000 of which a large portion would be spent on downtown business and entertainment.  The more people that live downtown the more people that will want to visit and live because right now its a pretty damn depressing and sometimes scary place to visit!

A brief note on parking.

Yesterday my wife and I got a 25.00 ticket at Jax Beach for parking too close to a stop sign even though there was more than a car length between us and the stop sign (30' is the minimum so make sure you bring your tape measure because the dam curbs aren't painted!)

We wanted to but didn't go to Treaty Oak Park because there is no clear parking!

We had to illegally park at RCBC/Mosh parking to walk across the Main St Bridge, where we discussed Zombieland rules because of our fellow bridge walkers. 

We then ate dinner at Outback because we were worried about getting another ticket, only this time downtown!