Can Downtown Survive?

[Jaxson]

@Chriswufgator -- Wouldn't it be great if city leaders would wake up and get rid of the parking meters?  We all could do without the sadists who go around ticketing the very few remaining people who do support downtown.  We also could save the money that we spend on those sadists in uniform.  Furthermore, it would lighten the burden of checking to see if we have quarters before we venture downtown.  One would have thought that the meters at least could have been allowed to accept nickels, dimes and quarters.  At any rate, I totally support getting rid of the parking meters!

[cityimrov]

Even without looking at the parking issue, DT has major problems.  I'll give an example.  Suppose we somehow manage to find the space to fit Jax Stadium in the middle of downtown.  Yes, in the middle in the core.  That's about 56,000 people per Jaguar game?  A boost to downtown economy, right?  

Here's probably what's going to happen after the game.  So instead of picking the option that takes people into shops and entrainment (like, let's say, Disney World) forcing people to slow down and enjoy themselves, the police will be figuring out to corral people to their cars.  Barricades will be set up from the stadium to the parking lot.  The police will be agitated at this point.  No one is to leave the formation of the barricades to their cars.  No loitering around - hurry up and get to your car and leave!  At this point, the people are so agitated about the situation that they want to leave!  The entire system is set up to get people from the event to their cars ASAP. No loitering.  No waiting around.  No enjoying the sites.

Does Downtown have an Anti-Loitering policy I don't know about?  Unless attitudes change, I don't think pouring money into DT will work.  The funny thing is, if we did this, the traffic problem would be reduced!  Instead of everyone wanting to leave at the exact same time, we'd have people wanting to stay, wander around, and enjoy the place.  

[ChriswUfGator]

Even without looking at the parking issue, DT has major problems.  I'll give an example.  Suppose we somehow manage to find the space to fit Jax Stadium in the middle of downtown.  Yes, in the middle in the core.  That's about 56,000 people per Jaguar game?  A boost to downtown economy, right?  

Here's probably what's going to happen after the game.  So instead of picking the option that takes people into shops and entrainment (like, let's say, Disney World) forcing people to slow down and enjoy themselves, the police will be figuring out to corral people to their cars.  Barricades will be set up from the stadium to the parking lot.  The police will be agitated at this point.  No one is to leave the formation of the barricades to their cars.  No loitering around - hurry up and get to your car and leave!  At this point, the people are so agitated about the situation that they want to leave!  The entire system is set up to get people from the event to their cars ASAP. No loitering.  No waiting around.  No enjoying the sites.

Does Downtown have an Anti-Loitering policy I don't know about?  Unless attitudes change, I don't think pouring money into DT will work.  The funny thing is, if we did this, the traffic problem would be reduced!  Instead of everyone wanting to leave at the exact same time, we'd have people wanting to stay, wander around, and enjoy the place.  

Yeah, but making DT successful on any kind of ongoing basis can't involve a focus on special events, it needs to be organic and comprised of Jacksonville residents actually visiting downtown Jacksonville on a recurring basis. Personally, I don't care what they do with the special events, since they're basically money-losers anyway. Bring in the superbowl or whatever you want, and it won't change anything. DT will still suck the other 364 days a year, and that's the problem.

The permanent solution is in getting local people down there on an ongoing basis, and in getting businesses to open up to serve that traffic. The current biggest impediments to all of this are the asinine parking policies and one-way streets, followed by COJ and the various DT landlords being willing to sit on a bunch of vacant buildings instead of leasing them at reasonable rates because they *think* they're worth more. Newsflash: if they were worth more, they wouldn't be vacant.

But at least getting rid of paid parking and 1-ways would go a long way towards boosting the convenience factor and getting folks down there, and the rest all really flows from that.

[CS Foltz]

Chris................that would make sense to go that route, but won't happen because it makes sense and cost's no money! This Administration could not plan its way out of a wet paper bag, a drain pipe or even out a door!

[tufsu1]

I got sick enough of $25 sandwiches that I quit going down there. And by that I mean a $15 Parking ticket + $10 for a sandwich & soda. It got way too annoying to keep screwing with it. No skin off my teeth, the eats are better over here in R'side anyhow. And, interestingly, despite there being no parking meters to be found anywhere over here, there are 10 times more people out and about than there are in DT at any given time of the day. Hmm...what does that teach us?

maybe you should come downtown in the evening...there are at least 10 dining options and parking is free....you know, the 99.9999% of the time when it is dead as a doornail  

[stjr]

The meters are an issue, particularly not accepting credit/debit cards for up to at least 2 or 3 hours at a time.  Certainly, super aggressive enforcement helps to tarnish the user friendly image downtown needs to have.  But, downtown issues are far greater than meters.  Making all 1,600 meters free isn't going to fix downtown.  So, Tufsu, to the extent that making meters free won't solve any major downtown issues, I am a bit in your corner on this one.  Are you sitting down?

The real fix for parking is to have good mass transit connections to outlying areas - streetcars to urban neighborhoods and commuter rail.  Buses throughout. Also, good pedestrian infrastructure.  Then, parking won't be needed at all.

[Jerry Moran]

I’ve changed my mind about the need for parking meters downtown.  They’re not needed, and should be replaced with a blanket 2 hour free parking limit throughout downtown.  The city has the technology to enforce that limit already in place.  The few remaining downtown merchants will also help by reporting overtime vehicles. Have a “three strikes rule” that entails issuing 3 warning per year for overtime offenses, followed by $25 citations.  Spell the rules out on the warnings. This will discourage downtowners and office workers from parking long term on the street, and relieve the occasional visitor from fear of fines.

The two top concerns my customers have when visiting downtown is getting mugged, and having their car ticketed or towed.  The parking meters, though not enforced after 5 PM (officially 6 PM) only contribute to visitors’ angst.  My business operates after 5 PM, and all the meters do is act as spooky tombstones in a creepy cemetery.  Visitors are already nervous about visiting downtown, and the meters reinforce that apprehension.   Removing the meters would be akin to planting neat rows of flowers across the lawn.  A little less stressful, Huh?  Isn’t that what Downtown needs: a little less stress?

San Marco has the right idea.  Last week I had to visit my broker, Scottrade, that just moved to San Marco from Downtown.  Scottrade was formerly located at street level on Laura between Bay and Forsyth.  It was a pleasure to do business in San Marco.  I found a parking space right away, and there were no parking meters to pay.  I crossed the street, did my business at Scottrade, and left  in less than 10 minutes.  There are a lot of little 10 minute transactions that do not happen downtown because of the parking meters, and because the parking meters are being fed all day by office workers.

I asked the manager of Scottrade why they had moved to San Marco, after 7 or so years downtown.  I remember when they opened downtown and how excited I was about having them nearby.  The manager told me that doing business was difficult in downtown, and that his customers complained about how inconvenient it was to visit the downtown office.  Parking was a major concern, followed by the preponderance of vagrants and general seediness of the area.  He stated that parking in San Marco has not been an issue for his customers.

I also asked the manager if, when downtown, Scottrade had any contact with the downtown community, specifically DVI.  He said no, nothing, never met DVI.  On the other hand, San Marco rolled out the red carpet, and Scottrade was showered with attention by the various community organizations that operate there (I can’t remember which ones). 

So, let’s get rid of the downtown meters and start enforced 2 hour free parking.  I guess DVI will have to find something else to adhere their stickers to.

[Jerry Moran]

I live downtown. and other than the Landing, Im curious what dining options are open 99% of the evening hours.

I would be ecstatic to find something besides Burger King and Cafe 331 that is open past 6 Sunday through Wednesday.

Do tell.

Stephen,

In our personal conversations, I've expressed my feeling that the MetroJacksonville Forum is not an appropriate place to pimp one's business, and that I held considerable disdain for those who do.

That being said, to answer your question, La Cena is always open Tuesday - Saturday from 5 PM until very late, and if you do not want to sit in the main dining room, all of our appetizers and appetizer portions of pasta are available in the bar area at appetizer prices.  We'll also throw in fresh bread, butter, and grissini with any order, including beer or wine at the bar. I think you will find La Cena to be a great value considering what you receive for your money.

That's all I'll say.

[cityimrov]

I’ve changed my mind about the need for parking meters downtown.  They’re not needed, and should be replaced with a blanket 2 hour free parking limit throughout downtown.  The city has the technology to enforce that limit already in place.  The few remaining downtown merchants will also help by reporting overtime vehicles. Have a “three strikes rule” that entails issuing 3 warning per year for overtime offenses, followed by $25 citations.  Spell the rules out on the warnings. This will discourage downtowners and office workers from parking long term on the street, and relieve the occasional visitor from fear of fines.

I don't think the city believes or trusts that the merchants will do just that even though it's in the merchants best interest to do so!  (Either that or the city really wants money!  Or parking enforcement have super special civil servant protection making them expensive to fire!)  For some strange reason, the city, especially the mayors office, is ready to go to war over parking.  

From the sound of most posts here, paid street parking is a good starting point to fixing downtown.  If the city extended an olive branch granting people what they wanted here, downtown might have a small chance of surviving instead of the death spiral it's in today. 

My biggest fear is if the city suddenly find a large sum of cash to spend on downtown before fixing the fundamental issues presented here - which doesn't cost much money!  Maybe even save money!  

[thelakelander]

Although it's true a vibrant downtown would bring in more, in a tunnel view type of outlook, the meters and ticketing bring in revenue.  That's most likely the major reason they are still in place.

As for restaurants at night, the majority open are probably in the hotels and the Landing.

[tufsu1]

I live downtown. and other than the Landing, Im curious what dining options are open 99% of the evening hours.

I would be ecstatic to find something besides Burger King and Cafe 331 that is open past 6 Sunday through Wednesday.

Do tell.

ok...in addition to the 2 you mentioned (I would have only counteed Cafe 331):

Big Pete's Pizza
Casa Dora
Northstar Substation
La Cena
London Bridge
Chicago Pizza (Landing)
Hooters (Landing)
Benny's (Landing)
Vito's (Landing)
American Cafe (Landing)
Cinco de Mayo (Landing)
Koja Sushi (Landing)
Juliette's (Omni)
Trellises (Hyatt)

plus there are the places on the Southbank as well as City Hall Pub....and of course you can get appetizer-type items at Twisted Martini and also get hot food and/or subs at Winn Dixie.

[Jaxson]

Although it's true a vibrant downtown would bring in more, in a tunnel view type of outlook, the meters and ticketing bring in revenue.  That's most likely the major reason they are still in place.

As for restaurants at night, the majority open are probably in the hotels and the Landing.

The revenue aspect of the parking meters is what is most troubling.  Lakelander is right that our city's tunnel vision is more focused on nickel and diming people over parking fines instead of cultivating a downtown where everyone benefits from increased revenue for local businesses.

[tufsu1]

Just to set the record straight, I am in favor of modernizing our parking system....which means replacing meters throughout downtown with new meters that accept credit cards or having parking boxes (1 per block) that do the same....further, on selected blocks/streets, I would endorse removing the meters entirely and insted having time-limited free parking (anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours)....however, enforcement must still be a part of the plan...without it, office workers will use free parking spaces all day and there won't be available spaces on the street for shoppers/visitors.

[tufsu1]

Do you have any proof to back up this wild claim?  You keep repeating it, but legitimately, how will the 6 thousand workers of downtown fill the 35 thousand parking spaces of downtown?  What stores do you imagine are open that would be blocked?

Do you have any retail experience to back up this idea?

Or do you just simply know better than every merchant who has ever posted on the subject?

Well I can come up with plenty of proof that there are far more than 6,000 workers in downtown (even in the northbank core)...as for my parking theory, I don't have any proof....just a pretty informed hunch that workers who currently pay to park in a lot/garage might be interested in free parking.

That said, I suggested a trial period for free parking on a thread a few weeks ago...and you threw it out as poppycock.

As for retail/dining....there are far more options open during the day than at night....places like Chew are mob packed most days for lunch, so they're not hurting for business because of the meters....and as Jerry Moran pointed out, meter enforcement does stop at 5pm....perhaps the meter times/information should be changed to reflect this.  

[tufsu1]

Stephen...I'm not going to fight with you about this today....you asked what places were open at night for dining and I gave you a list....my 99.9999% comment was related to a comment made by another poster implying that downtown is just about always dead.