Downtown Jacksonville Becoming Vacant

[trigger]

FYI... Whyte was also able to demonstrate that businesses that left downtown for the suburbs were 50% more likely to fail over the long-term (5 or 10 years, don't remember which) than those that stayed in downtown, which suggested the relocation was a band-aid to avoid the larger problem (competitiveness, etc.).

Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

[thelakelander]

more public transit but JAX density can't financially support it

What are you basing this theory on?  Regardless of if we're talking about roads or rail, infrastructure builds development, not the other way around.  Jax is a prime example of this.  The denser neighborhoods typically happen to be streetcar suburbs and the lower density areas were designed primarily for automobile movement.  If you want density, you provide the type of infrastructure that stimulates that style of development pattern.  Feel free to take a look at the aerials from last Friday's article for visual examples.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-before-after-rail-spurs-economic-development

[thelakelander]

Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

I agree!

[thelakelander]

Considering several suburban low density sprawlers have had ridership success with new systems (ex. Houston, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Charlotte, etc.), I find it funny that people still run around with this easily proven false theory today.

[tufsu1]

Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

I agree!

This is the answer....we need to start calling it InTown Jax....these are the areas where the creative class (see Richard Florida) want to be....and the argument to companies is these are your future employees!

[thelakelander]

Its also an area where frequent reliable mass transit and other alternative mobility options will be required to create the vibrant urban core atmosphere everyone claims to want.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Does anyone happen to know what the metering situation is in cities such as Nashville, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Orlando?

I don't think downtown Norfolk has meters but I could be wrong.  I've always been a garage parker there.

[thelakelander]

They all have on-street smart meters (or meters that accept more than quarters) but I don't think the on-street meter situation is going to really impact the parking costs for these major companies.  When you employ thousands of people in a suburban city with unreliable mass transit, you're going to need places for bulk "dedicated" parking.  Baptist plans to invest thousands annually for a shuttle service and 200 spaces at the Kings Avenue garage to deal with their parking issues.  

DVI, JEDC and JTA need to get together and flesh out this type of TDM strategy for the entire DT core.  I imagine money could be saved and transit ridership would significantly increase if all the cash these companies spend on parking/transportation are put into developing a unified parking/mass transit solution for the entire business district.

[tufsu1]

Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

I agree!

This is the answer....we need to start calling it InTown Jax....these are the areas where the creative class (see Richard Florida) want to be....and the argument to companies is these are your future employees!

Well its part of the answer.  If the creative class cant park without paying effing stupid fines and also cant access reliable mass transit, then we wont live there for more than one lease cycle.

You have to fix the simple things first.

I know you have this fixation with the meters, but they are a very smal part of the bigger picture....notice I encompassed several neighborhoods into InTown Jax....there are no meters in Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield currently...and there are people who live downtown (both northbank and southbank)...almost everyone has off-street parking.

[JeffreyS]

Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

I agree!

This is the answer....we need to start calling it InTown Jax....these are the areas where the creative class (see Richard Florida) want to be....and the argument to companies is these are your future employees!

+1

[Wacca Pilatka]

DVI, JEDC and JTA need to get together and flesh out this type of TDM strategy for the entire DT core.  I imagine money could be saved and transit ridership would significantly increase if all the cash these companies spend on parking/transportation are put into developing a unified parking/mass transit solution for the entire business district.

How do you rate the odds that this will actually happen, and the timeliness of response?

[thelakelander]

How do you rate the odds that this will actually happen

Since they still seem to fight that transit is a critical element of vibrant urbanism, I'd say 1 out of a couple of billion. 

and the timeliness of response?

I'm hoping next year's election turns the apple cart upside down.  I don't expect much to change with the Peyton administration in office so expect to see a few of these companies and others abandon downtown.

[Wacca Pilatka]

That's what I was afraid of.  Thank goodness there's an abundance of candidates in the next election who seem to understand the situation, but I hate how solutions have been delayed or situations made worse in recent years.

[trigger]

The cities were built by rail and developed around the spread of rail lines over a hundred years ago, when populations were smaller and less dense than at any time in the second half of the 20th century.

Costs were less then, the personal and public tax/debt burden was less then, we weren't a litigated society then or possessed draconian environmental protection regulations then and the systems touted on this website of "successful" low density rail transit are heavily subsidized by taxpayer money. I know the St. Louis system is heavily subsidized and therefore, not economically self-sufficient though it possesses very high ridership numbers. Even European urban transit systems are not self-sufficient and they have ALL of the spatial and economic benefits we do not have (except for a few locations, Chicago, NYC, etc.) which means the taxpayer subsidy is prohibitive in post-WWII American cities. Not to mention we still don't have the political will to properly build these systems (for example, these systems are plagued with taking the easy way out decisions on securing right-of-way) which results in train stations in the middle of nowhere (see St. Louis north side station stops). Rail is the long-term answer but it is NOT a magic bullet and if not designed correctly it can have a detrimental effect on neighborhoods (again, see interstate highway system, which some US neighborhoods are ONLY now recovering from short-sighted design decisions made 40 years ago and some still have not, see East St. Louis).

[JeffreyS]

^ Yes rail is hard to do when compared to all those self sufficient revenue producing roads that have done so well curbing sprawl.