ATM Robbery Sparks Ruminations on Capitalism

[JC]

I agree with you 100% Troll.  Capitalism brings out the absolute best in human beings.  I also struggle constantly with whether to even post my thoughts when it is abundantly clear there is no way of ever convincing the other party of my viewpoint.  I still don't quite know where I stand.  I think overall its best to post it, because some who may be interested in silently reading the discussion will not be as steadfast in their position as the person with whom you are debating.

There are few guarantees in life IMO.  One of them is that there are good people and bad people.  Any system you could envision would allow for the bad people to exploit and take advantage of the good.  Overall the capitalist system adds another guarantee to our life, I believe, that is the guarantee of an opportunity to make something of yourself.  It is not a guarantee of a result but of a chance.  I think it affords the best chance of any system, and the greatest incentive to take your best chance of any system, and for generations industrious men and women making the most of their chance has done more good for the human condition than any other system anywhere at any time.

Well said.

Clearly none of you have been on the receiving end of a Love Canal or had your natural resources pillaged in exchange for a little bit of money and a pile of pollution.  This system works for most people in the US, or it at least appears to, but it is hell on the most others!

[JC]

I would argue that humans dont have a nature and are mainly responding to their surroundings

There is the root statement of Marxism.  Human beings as mechanisms.  That we are "tabula rasa", blank slates that are solely operated on by our environment.

It also flies in the face of the last hundred years of increasingly sophisticated neuroscience discoveries, but then most religious beliefs do.

Uh yeah, thank goodness you extrapolated that from my argument so you could make yours!

Do you not respond to your environment?  Wear shorts when its hot, sunglasses when its sunny, swerve when a car drives at you, maybe run, hide, or fight depending on other factors when threatened? 

Oh and I can also find physicists that say there is no such thing as free will at all... So the jury is still out on the science.

[NotNow]

Capitalism fits the nature of human beings better than any other economic system and the experiments of history have proved it.  Sentimental wishes won't change human nature.

Curse the industrial revolution all you want, but the world is a far better place for human beings now than it was in 1800.

I would argue that humans don't have a nature and are mainly responding to their surroundings... If their surroundings require them to stick someone up at an ATM to feed their family or drug habit, you can damn well bet that most will do it.

JC, I don't agree with this statement.  I think people would find a means to survive without taking advantage of others.  A quick review of history, as you have asked for, will reveal many "crashes" and the uncanny ability of people to fare through tough conditions.  

As for the horrors of American capitalism, compared to what?  The United States has been the most benevolent empire in the history of the planet, both in money and human investment.  Have some less than honorable things been done in our name?  Yes, but compared to the USSR or the Chinese I'll take our imperfect system every time.  And as I have pointed out before, the world has agreed for many decades and to this day you will see lines at many American embassies of individuals and families seeking entry into this country and a better life.  

I'm not claiming absolutes here.  Nothing is absolute.  As has been pointed out by others, our systems are imperfect and require constant updating and tweeking.  We are not always right or honorable.  But our system has always encouraged and mostly rewarded honorable and straightforward ethics in our business and governmental affairs.

[NotNow]

Code 664 of the Tax Reform Act of 1969:

Transfer remainder interest when termination of payments
Once the annuity period is over (i.e., at the death of the non-charitable beneficiary, or at the expiration of the term of years), the remainder of the CRUT principal is distributed to charity.[7] The charity must be an organization described in Section 170(c).


Perhaps we are speaking of different vehicles?

[Tripoli1711]

I find it hard to believe that 100% pure altruism exists anywhere.

JC if I follow your logic correctly are you saying that as a product of being in a capitalist environment, men have responded by exploiting and committing untold evils on other men?  I just don't see it.  There have always been kings, warlords and fat cats that have done bad things to other people to make themselves richer.  I don't see how it indicts our system.

[Dog Walker]

Trip, it's all part of the "nature" that human beings don't have.

[JC]

I find it hard to believe that 100% pure altruism exists anywhere.

JC if I follow your logic correctly are you saying that as a product of being in a capitalist environment, men have responded by exploiting and committing untold evils on other men?  I just don't see it.  There have always been kings, warlords and fat cats that have done bad things to other people to make themselves richer.  I don't see how it indicts our system.

So the environment that fostered slavery had nothing to do with the occurrence of slavery? Seriously?

The same as the system that encourages greed, has nothing to do with the occurrence of greed?  

I get it, this system works for you as it does for many others and you are resistant to change because well... thats for you to decide.  

Capitalism fits the nature of human beings better than any other economic system and the experiments of history have proved it.  Sentimental wishes won't change human nature.

Curse the industrial revolution all you want, but the world is a far better place for human beings now than it was in 1800.

I would argue that humans don't have a nature and are mainly responding to their surroundings... If their surroundings require them to stick someone up at an ATM to feed their family or drug habit, you can damn well bet that most will do it.

JC, I don't agree with this statement.  I think people would find a means to survive without taking advantage of others.  A quick review of history, as you have asked for, will reveal many "crashes" and the uncanny ability of people to fare through tough conditions.  

As for the horrors of American capitalism, compared to what?  The United States has been the most benevolent empire in the history of the planet, both in money and human investment.  Have some less than honorable things been done in our name?  Yes, but compared to the USSR or the Chinese I'll take our imperfect system every time.  And as I have pointed out before, the world has agreed for many decades and to this day you will see lines at many American embassies of individuals and families seeking entry into this country and a better life.  

I'm not claiming absolutes here.  Nothing is absolute.  As has been pointed out by others, our systems are imperfect and require constant updating and tweeking.  We are not always right or honorable.  But our system has always encouraged and mostly rewarded honorable and straightforward ethics in our business and governmental affairs.

You've been in a desperate situation, and chosen to follow the rules over providing for your family?

[BridgeTroll]

Its nice of you to want the charity to be purely altruistic, but it generally just isnt.

Im betting the charity you give is altruistic Stephen.  Im also betting every single one of us gives what we can when we can in the same manner.  Now if you or I get a tax deduction or benefit from doing so does it lessen the gift?  Or the motive?

[BridgeTroll]

There are other models, but this one is not the best.  Also, I am not necessarily anti capitalist, I am more anti corporatist and against top down decision making, I am sure there is a word for that but I don't necessarily like to use it because all the other connotations that come along with it.

Please elaborate JC.  Please find the word you are looking for.  No need to be embarrased by the "connotations".

[JC]

There are other models, but this one is not the best.  Also, I am not necessarily anti capitalist, I am more anti corporatist and against top down decision making, I am sure there is a word for that but I don't necessarily like to use it because all the other connotations that come along with it.

Please elaborate JC.  Please find the word you are looking for.  No need to be embarrased by the "connotations".

Just what you need, more ammunition, if you aint smart enough to figure it out from certain words or references than you dont need to know

[BridgeTroll]

OK...

How about the "other models"?

[JC]

OK...

How about the "other models"?

True cost, triple bottom line or whatever you want to call it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_cost_accounting

and... my current favorite!

parecon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics

[NotNow]

I find it hard to believe that 100% pure altruism exists anywhere.

JC if I follow your logic correctly are you saying that as a product of being in a capitalist environment, men have responded by exploiting and committing untold evils on other men?  I just don't see it.  There have always been kings, warlords and fat cats that have done bad things to other people to make themselves richer.  I don't see how it indicts our system.

So the environment that fostered slavery had nothing to do with the occurrence of slavery? Seriously?

The same as the system that encourages greed, has nothing to do with the occurrence of greed?  

I get it, this system works for you as it does for many others and you are resistant to change because well... thats for you to decide.  

Capitalism fits the nature of human beings better than any other economic system and the experiments of history have proved it.  Sentimental wishes won't change human nature.

Curse the industrial revolution all you want, but the world is a far better place for human beings now than it was in 1800.

I would argue that humans don't have a nature and are mainly responding to their surroundings... If their surroundings require them to stick someone up at an ATM to feed their family or drug habit, you can damn well bet that most will do it.

JC, I don't agree with this statement.  I think people would find a means to survive without taking advantage of others.  A quick review of history, as you have asked for, will reveal many "crashes" and the uncanny ability of people to fare through tough conditions.  

As for the horrors of American capitalism, compared to what?  The United States has been the most benevolent empire in the history of the planet, both in money and human investment.  Have some less than honorable things been done in our name?  Yes, but compared to the USSR or the Chinese I'll take our imperfect system every time.  And as I have pointed out before, the world has agreed for many decades and to this day you will see lines at many American embassies of individuals and families seeking entry into this country and a better life.  

I'm not claiming absolutes here.  Nothing is absolute.  As has been pointed out by others, our systems are imperfect and require constant updating and tweeking.  We are not always right or honorable.  But our system has always encouraged and mostly rewarded honorable and straightforward ethics in our business and governmental affairs.

You've been in a desperate situation, and chosen to follow the rules over providing for your family?

I suppose that would depend on your definition of "desperate".  Have I gone to sleep hungry without a dime in my pocket?  Yes.  Have I had the "opportunity" to take what was not mine, with no chance of getting caught?  Yes, and I have not done so.  I know many who have suffered worse poverty than I, and have behaved in a civil and honorable manner.  I know of such a couple right now.  I know many persons who have eschewed taking property that was not theirs for one reason...their character would not allow it.  

Perhaps you need to change your circle of friends.

[NotNow]

What does that mean StephenDare!?  "Not equipped with the basics necessary for informed discussion"?  How do you know if my opinion is "informed" or not?  You get to decide?  What determines an "open mind"?  One that agrees with you? 

It is my opinion that I answered the man's question.  I can't see where your opinion of me or my posts has any bearing here or is useful to our discussion. 

Do you have any real factual critiques of my posts?  Or is the personal attack all that there is?

[BridgeTroll]

True cost, triple bottom line or whatever you want to call it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_cost_accounting

and... my current favorite!

parecon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics

Interesting read... I am sure many companies use the first example and the other... well... is a theory.  Perhaps a small country like Belize should try it out before one of the biggest economic engines in the world does...

I can vouch for Dogwalker, Buckethead, and tripoli.

Jeez Stephen... I cannot believe you left me off your list.  Im kinda bummed...