Political Discussion about Healthcare Reform Law

[JeffreyS]

BT I agree it is not good or bad corporations it is good or bad policy. Now I do not feel health insurance should be a for profit industry but it is for now and those companies should try to make their profit.

[PJparker]

At this point, I don't think it's well understood how many of the GOP's central health-care policy ideas have already been included as compromises in the health-care bill. But one good way is to look at the GOP's "Solutions for America" homepage, which lays out its health-care plan in some detail. It has four planks. All of them -- yes, you read that right -- are in the Senate health-care bill.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/five_compronises_in_health_car.html

[buckethead]

So republicans wanted to give the Health Insurance industry a 100 % captive market too?

I guess that it is a good idea!

[Cricket]

At this point, I don't think it's well understood how many of the GOP's central health-care policy ideas have already been included as compromises in the health-care bill. But one good way is to look at the GOP's "Solutions for America" homepage, which lays out its health-care plan in some detail. It has four planks. All of them -- yes, you read that right -- are in the Senate health-care bill.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/five_compronises_in_health_car.html

Hmmm. Did the Republicans push to reform health-care for all Americans during the time they had control of congress and the presidency? If they didn't, what a shame! And if they did, those damn democrats must have railed against them.

[Tripoli1711]

At this point, I don't think it's well understood how many of the GOP's central health-care policy ideas have already been included as compromises in the health-care bill. But one good way is to look at the GOP's "Solutions for America" homepage, which lays out its health-care plan in some detail. It has four planks. All of them -- yes, you read that right -- are in the Senate health-care bill.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/five_compronises_in_health_car.html

Let's consider the source here PJ:

Ezra Klein (born May 9, 1984) is a blogger for the Washington Post and a columnist for Newsweek. He was formerly an associate editor for The American Prospect political magazine and an American liberal[1] political blogger at the same publication.  Besides his online contributions, Klein worked on Howard Dean's primary campaign in Vermont in 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Klein

He also likes to wildly distort the truth in the cited article:  "The solutions the GOP has on its Web site are not solutions at all, because Republicans don't want to be in the position of offering an alternative bill. "

Even though Republicans offered several alternative bills and plans, among them:  

Patient's Choice Act: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2520   and
Empowering Patients First Act  http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3400:

Posting an article by Ezra Klein to prove your point is like me posting an article by Sean Hannity to prove mine.  None of the Republican ideas are in the bill in a workable or substantive way or anywhere near their actual form as offered, so far as I can tell.  And an article by an openly far-left blogger from 6 weeks before the bill was actually passed... well, it's not very persuasive.

[PJparker]

Tripoli1711  “Posting an article by Ezra Klein to prove your point is like me posting an article by Sean Hannity to prove mine.  None of the Republican ideas are in the bill in a workable or substantive way or anywhere near their actual form as offered, so far as I can tell.  And an article by an openly far-left blogger from 6 weeks before the bill was actually passed... well, it's not very persuasive.”

Thanks for the Wikipedia biography of Ezra.  I already knew he was an editorial writer for The Washington Post, hence the notation and link at the bottom of my post.
I usually get a lot of responses from openly right-wing posters like yourself, but yours was intriguing because you gave me some links to further clarify your opinion.  I did follow those up.
“We first released our health care plan in June, and over the last six months, we have introduced at least eight bills that, taken together, would implement this blueprint. You can go right now to healthcare.gop.gov and get all the details, but for now, I just want to share with you four ideas Republicans have proposed:
•         Number one: let families and businesses buy health insurance across state lines;
•         Number two: allow individuals, small businesses, and trade associations to pool together and acquire health insurance at lower prices, the same way large corporations and labor unions do today;
•         Number three: give states the tools to create their own innovative reforms that lower health care costs; and
•         Number four: end junk lawsuits that contribute to higher health care costs by increasing the number of tests and procedures that physicians sometimes order not because they think it's good medicine, but because they are afraid of being sued.
“These are four smart, fiscally-responsible reforms that we can implement today to lower costs and expand access at a price our nation can afford.  Again, you can learn more about these and all the health care initiatives Republicans have supported by visiting healthcare.gop.gov.   â€" Boehner, House GOP Leader John Boehner (R-OH) Delivers Weekly Republican Address

As Boehner points out, there have been eight bills submitted by the GOP, not just the two you indicated in your links.  The four points he listed were the ones Boehner considers the most important.  They are in the bill.
Citing two more Republican ideas that were included which forced further Democratic compromises, he explains how the Republicans voted against their own ideas.  You must have read that, given the quote you used out of context. 

The facts do check out.  You may think the article is biased, but when you look at the facts on the GOP website, I don’t see how you can call the facts biased.  The conclusion is that the Republicans voted against their own ideas in an effort to obstruct the government process, and will continue to obstruct government. 
Here’s what McCain said:
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, it seems like there are a lot of ruffled feathers over here. In fact, even Senator McCain came out with some strong language...
GRAHAM: Yes!
VAN SUSTEREN: ... saying there'd be no more cooperation until the end of the year.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589842,00.html

As you can see, obstruction is not going to stop the process.  Just like with a two-year-old who says he is not going to cooperate with you, at some point, you just have to do your job anyway, despite the kicking and screaming.

[JagFan07]

•         Number one: let families and businesses buy health insurance across state lines;

I have not seen where this is written in the current bill. Can someone point me to it?

•         Number two: allow individuals, small businesses, and trade associations to pool together and acquire health insurance at lower prices, the same way large corporations and labor unions do today;

The pools are a great idea, This is actually common ground both parties share.

•         Number three: give states the tools to create their own innovative reforms that lower health care costs; and

This is poorly written in the current bill. What they have done is allow states to be exempt from the Federal Insurance program provided the states program meets the same criteria of the federal plan. So the states are only able to add to the Federal plan. They will not be able to drop any part of the federal plan that they may find costly or unnecessary. This does not allow for innovation.

•         Number four: end junk lawsuits that contribute to higher health care costs by increasing the number of tests and procedures that physicians sometimes order not because they think it's good medicine, but because they are afraid of being sued.

I didn't find any tort reform in this bill. Again, if someone could point me to the language in the bill I would love to see it.

[Tripoli1711]

I don't know what sort of stigma is supposed to be attached to me for being an "openly right wing poster", but that's cool... from listening to and reading the quotes of a lot of the Congressional leadership, I guess that's supposed to mean I am a scared racist.  But that's a story for another thread.

I think JagFan responded about as well as I could.  As far as posting the bio on Ezra, I already knew all of that stuff, but saying something akin to "You know Ezra Klein is one step away from being a pinko, right" wouldn't be as intelligent of a response as just showing his biography.  He is an openly left wing poster.

I didn't take any quotes out of context, the quote is directly from the article and within the proper context.  He suggested the Republicans refused to offer any bills.  I stated that the GOP had offered several alternatives, among them:  and then gave the two. 

I am certain you know that the republicans are by and large incapable of "obstructing government".  I also do not think it is their intention of obstructing government.  I do believe that the Republicans felt shut out of the process from the beginning.  I cannot recall the number of stories about Pelosi and Reid meeting with D leadership "behind closed doors" with no republican input whilst drafting the bills.  I don't have the time to go and pull the myriad articles on the topic.  Is there politics involved in McCain's statement?  Sure.  But it's a pretty clever play seeing as how the majority of Americans were vehemently opposed to the legislation.  McCain may be saying the republicans are going to take their ball and go home, but the voters appear ready to send quite a few democrats home permanently in November.  Its politically viable for McCain to take the position he did, and will not serve to actually "obstruct" anything, since the democrats control everything quite handily at the present time.

[finehoe]

I also do not think it is their intention of obstructing government. 

I guess you aren't aware of these: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/201003230006

[Tripoli1711]

Here we go again.  Geez.  How bout you guys ever take a hint from, or support a point with, anything other than the sycophantic far-left media?  Media matters.  Wow, what a bastion of objectivity.  No.  I had not read these before.  Now I have.  I suppose principled opposition is now equal to dreadful obstructionism? 

I mean.. just look at some of the highlights from the memos:

Why.. there's no fewer than 17 bullet points of what they support or want to propose as alternatives coupled with an exhortation to make sure to put forward ideas so that they aren't the “same outdated republicans who oppose everything”.

What obstructionist jerks.

And then there's this passage: 

“The Democrats have accused us of trying to delay, stall, slow down and stop this bill.  They are right.  We do want to delay, stall, slow down and ultimately stop them from experimenting on our nation's health care.  And guess what, so do a majority of Americans.  I have heard Republican political operatives say it will be good for our Party next November if the Democrats pass this bill. They note that the bill is unpopular with Independents, suburban voters and senior citizens.  They say the voters will run them out of office for it.  That may be, but we cannot take that approach.  Some things are more important than politics.  This is one of those times.  Please do everything you can to stop this bill... before its too late”

Just blind obstructionist lemmings, those Republicans.  There's no substance there.  Just a robotic hard-wired program running on loop to say no and obstruct the poor Democrats who are just trying to make flowers bloom and life grand.

Yes.  Media Matters calls them the "obstructionist memos" or whatever they called them, so that's precisely what they must be.

Guess what.  Democrats have internal memos too.  They talk politics.  They have talking-points.  They probably look quite the same.  To use your tactic- If I got a Heritage Foundation blog that had obtained some of them, and posted them under the heading "Democrat Memos on Shoving Unpopular Power-Grabs Down People's Throats", I could simply throw a link on here, sit back cross my arms and smile.  My point would be proven!  Democrats are evil.  That's all I'd have to do....

[JeffreyS]

If you do not think one party is obstructing the other party for purely political reasons you have not been paying attention to American politics for a long time.

[BridgeTroll]

Democrats who are just trying to make flowers bloom and life grand.

[Tripoli1711]

Sorry to fulfill the video's substance, but isn't their point essentially a recitation of your MO when debating? 

I was unaware that a thoughtful response could be summarily dismissed because it invoked sarcasm. 

[Tripoli1711]

Perhaps it was a bit steamy.  It just gets frustrating how often on here and other places I get replies that cite Daily Kos or Media Matters, etc... and it's supposed to just speak for itself as gospel. 

Probably more instructive as to my edge is the fact that I am on day 8 of kicking a 7 year long pack a day cigarette habit.   

[buckethead]

Obstruction of government?...

Sounds reasonable.