Carling, 11 East Bleeding Money: developer asks city for more help

[stjr]

If additional regulation were to promote business activity in general instead of favoring certain businesses and hurting others that would be a fluke.  COJ needs to make it cheaper and easier to do business DT (and throughout the city for that matter).  Zoning, arch. reviews, planning should be dramatically simplified or eliminated.  Tax relief should be secondary to that, IMHO.

Just like anything else, there is good and bad regulation.  Businesses and individuals actually pay substantially extra to be "regulated" in office parks and gated/master planned communities.  Good regulation can create value for all by insuring the right mix and minimum standards investors are looking for to be more likely of success.  What Downtown currently reflects is inconsistencies galore and the uncertainties created by that do much to scare investors and potential residents off.  Some level of regulation would give them assurance that their investments would have a minimal level of protection and that the environment they are seeking will be delivered.

[CS Foltz]

CS...your anti-tax arguments are getting old...what ideas do you have for revitaziling downtown and moving the region forward that don't require increased public investment?

Big guy.......I am not anti-tax as you suggest! I am for effecient, cost effective government! I would like to see an even distrubution of tax incentives and low interest loans not favor the large companies (Vescor a $5 Million Dollar grant plus low interest loans of $21 Million Dollars.) There is plenty that could be accomplished with that kind of money. Consistent policies applied to the private sector, good zoning,landscaping,signage,set backs,pedestrian friendly street level,architectual reviews and the like. Simplify regulations instead of the hodge podge we have now which alot could be removed and no one would miss squat! I am a firm believer in operating within my budget and unless the City can demonstrate the same, I am against any new Tax's or Fee's and rightfully so! I don't see the City making the attempt and I have too? I see the current Administration just get a tax increase when they can't make ends meet! I say fire 229 AIMO's and save $27 Million dollars in cost, I say trim the fat out of the Budget for real, not some token effort like cutting the Veterens Day Parade. We just spent $130K for a Teal gate Party........I could start listing all of the failed efforts of this Administrations and the last one but would get writers cramp, but I see the Millions wasted to this date and don't care for the City's effort or stewardship of our tax dollars to date.

[tufsu1]

sorry CS, but that's what the Tea Party folks say...its called anti-tax!

Remember that being a part of a community means sometimes funding/supporting things that aren't for you, but for the greater good...the Tealgate Party is one of those things, as is Metro Park, Cecil Commerfce Center, etc.

As an example, I don't have kids but I'm not complaining about my local school taxes!

[CS Foltz]

Mine have been grown for years and I am busy funding things that don't directly effect me all over Jacksonville, like a Court House, 11 East, Metro Park,Cecil Commerce Center,Ship Yards..............lets not forget JEA and JTA got their Budget Money approved by the City Council......oh yea and Johnny got that tax increase he wanted didn't he? I want efficient government.........don't know what the so-called Tea Party Clowns want  and don't care.............I want cost effective government and I will keep removing incumbents until I get it!

[mtraininjax]

Mine have been grown for years and I am busy funding things that don't directly effect me all over Jacksonville, like a Court House, 11 East, Metro Park,Cecil Commerce Center,Ship Yards.............I want cost effective government and I will keep removing incumbents until I get it!

CS - You are being short-sighted. The existing courthouse is over 50 years old, it is here to provide justice to criminals, and the city needs a new one for another 50 years. We can't fix what we have, its too old and is running with band-aids now. Metro Park is the downtown park, its not perfect, but it needs rehab, and its a good long term investment for downtown, same as Kids Campus. Ship Yards was a disaster and handled poorly by City, no argument from me.

Government is inefficient at best. You have unions at the Police and Fire, not to mention the employee union for city workers. We're screwed, because we have allowed the unions to dictate what government will and will not do. Most Mayors never fight them, because it never goes anywhere, as we are seeing now with Peyton and Cuba, who mostly fight in the papers between themselves.  The problems of Government cannot be fixed with 1 term council people. We need to rid ourselves of the unions and have people paid based on performance, not their pension.

[CS Foltz]

mtraininjax.....Court House could have been renovated and refurbished for far less than $350  Million that we don't have now......Art Graham pushed for this several years ago and I agree with him. Just increasing urban sprawl and what do we get for it.......a new Court House no one asked for, voters approved $190 Million, right? Metro Park should have been done long before now and it needs to be cleaned up and pumps replaced, not gutted,concrete removed and grass planted (who got the contract to mow and trim?)Unions are a boil on the backside of progress now days, at one time they had a part to play.....not now in todays information age. Elected officials should be rated by the people who put them into office and they do so by re-electing them! If they have a proven track record for caring for their constituants and making decisions that benifit the whole, I wold vote for one again, but if they don't care about anyone but the GOB's ......sorry your gone! I want to see government spend no more than they have coming in, we don't need to the next Budget cycle in the hole right out of the blocks like we are going to be! Just because past Administrations did it does not make it right! If people were paid on performance........most people would be paying rather then receiving!

[tufsu1]

mtraininjax.....Court House could have been renovated and refurbished for far less than $350  Million that we don't have now......Art Graham pushed for this several years ago and I agree with him. Just increasing urban sprawl and what do we get for it.......a new Court House no one asked for, voters approved $190 Million, right? Metro Park should have been done long before now and it needs to be cleaned up and pumps replaced, not gutted,concrete removed and grass planted

#1 - you're clearly confusing Metro Park w/ Friendship Fountain

#2 - are you sure that one could renovate/expand the existing courthouse for less than $350 million?

#3 - the voters didn't approve any specific amopunt for BetterJax projects...they approved a list of projects that went along with a 1/2 cent sales tax...so far, nothing other than that sales tax money has been used for Better Jax. projects.

[mtraininjax]

Art Graham pushed for this several years ago and I agree with him.

CS - I went to college with Art, he is a great guy, but also remember that his district included the areas of SJTC and all of the sprawl that people complain about now. Art did try and limit the heights of buildings in the area, lost the hotel that opened with Shula's, but for the most part, he did not want to see 10-story buildings, and I agree with him, in the area.

The existing courthouse is full of asbestos and other nasty items, refurb it fine, but where do you hold court while you refurb it? Let's move it to your house and invade your area of town, I am sure you want the criminals so close. Best to build new and something that will last for years and years to come.

Track records - LOL - Go read the local Resident for Riverside, avondale, Murray Hill, ortega, Corrigan has a blurb in there, asking him about future office, he TAKES credit for beginning the Riverside Artists Market, as if that was not Dr. Woods project, but Corrigan, who is my council person, has as much creativity as gum on the sole of my shoe. He has done nothing for this district, other than status quo. People who hold office should be leaders and visionaries with agendas to grow and expand their areas, not be caretakers. I laughed when I read it.

[CS Foltz]

mtraininjax I understand! My first thought was to bring some barges in and tie them off across from the Hyatt! Seriously.......if barges aren't available, then use ships! Temp use only......could use downtown jail to hold and they could even have a nightcourt shift, which Moran has not seen fit to use! That way everything is close to where it is going on now! Would be more than happy to have it in my world, but nowhere big enough, nothing close but ship's or barges would do the trick! Cost is lots less then what we are going to end up paying for this, don't forget voters approved $190 Million not 350 Million! Corrigan belongs on the bottom of your shoe and he is not even in the caretaker category! Merserve who is mine belongs on the bottom of Corrigan's shoes!

[tufsu1]

CS...please tell us how your plan would "definitely" cost less than $350 million?

[mtraininjax]

Cost is lots less then what we are going to end up paying for this, don't forget voters approved $190 Million not 350 Million!

Lest we forget the promise by Tommy Hazouri that he would end the tolls, which he did, but still left us with the 1/2 cent tax to continue to pay for JTA. Do we need to say more about getting screwed by mayors and the taste that lingers?

[Charles Hunter]

Well, that was the deal given to voters - enact a 1/2 percent sales tax, to replace the tolls in place at the time.  If voters had turned down the referendum, we'd still have tolls - and by now they'd be using the E-Pass system, like in central Florida.

[stjr]

Here is an update on this issue:

Peyton backs help for developer on 2 ailing downtown projects
Vestcor seeks interest-only payments for awhile on The Carling, 11 East Forsyth

    * By David Hunt
    * Story updated at 8:17 PM on Tuesday, Jan. 12, 2010

City Hall should help the Vestcor Cos. overcome a major operating deficit at its two downtown, city-financed apartment buildings, Mayor John Peyton said Tuesday.

The development company went to the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission in mid-December seeking relief for recurring losses at The Carling and 11 East Forsyth.

“Do we want to get in the apartment building business? No, but I think what they’re asking is very reasonable,” Peyton said.

Vestcor’s request, detailed in a Dec. 16 letter to JEDC head Ron Barton, is not a direct plea for cash. The Jacksonville-based company is asking for interest-only payments, temporarily setting aside principle debt, for the next three years on $34.3 million in city-financed loans.

Vestcor also wants the city to provide incentives aimed at filling empty ground-floor commercial space: low-interest loans for stores, restaurants and other tenants.

Although the buildings were heralded as prime examples of public-private partnership, Vestcor’s deficit on the properties has totalled $1.5 million over the past six years.

Peyton’s comments came during a meeting he called with the Times-Union to discuss possible solutions to Jacksonville’s ailing downtown. The newspaper’s “Downtown Dilemma” series, published last month, analyzed development hurdles in the urban core.

Regardless of Peyton’s support, Vestcor’s request is subject to JEDC and City Council approval.
Opinions on the council have been mixed. Some members said they didn’t want to comment before JEDC develops an official plan.

Councilman Clay Yarborough questions why taxpayers should help a failing private endeavor, but Councilman Art Shad said part of Vestcor’s problem is that the city didn’t spread more incentive money around downtown.
Nearby development could have supported the buildings, Shad said. He referenced the success Kansas City has seen in its roughly $4 billion public investment in downtown. City leaders recently took a trip to the Midwest city to explore options for Jacksonville’s development.

“We have to spend and spend and spend until it hurts,” Shad said.

Between the two apartment buildings, there are 227 residential units and 16,199 square-feet of commercial space. Vestcor officials say about 80 percent of the apartments and 17 percent of the commercial space are occupied.

In the early 2000s, the city sponsored the renovation project with $34.3 million in low-interest loans and a $5 million grant. Vestcor purchased the buildings for $4.75 million.

Barton, who previously said Vestcor has a good business model but has been the victim of a tough real estate market, did not return a phone call Tuesday.

Vestcor Chairman John Rood also did not return a phone call.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-12/story/peyton_backs_help_for_developer_on_2_ailing_downtown_projects

[CS Foltz]

Just setting aside the principal for three years and making interest only payments does not seem right somehow! I don't see why a normal banking institution could not service this type of a problem! I mean the taxpayers are allready into this project  for a $5 Million Dollar grant and a low interest loan that's about $21 Million ($34.5 Million has been kicked around also, so I am not sure about the loan amount, but am confident about the grant) So why must we continue to foot the bill, I am still not too clear on this..........oh don't forget about the incentives for the first floor retail layout! At that rate, foreclose and hire professionals to run & rehab and lets start getting downtown up to speed!

[nestliving]

ya know, if they had priced their commercial space at a level the allows small businesses to take a risk on downtown 5 years ago, they more than likely would have no current deficit and a bunch of cool little shops today. I don't get the business plan in asking $20 odd bucks a sq. ft for a space that can only be survived in by paying $10. It makes it unreal for anyone wanting to try a little shopkeeping.