Elements of Urbanism: Buckhead & Midtown Atlanta

[AaroniusLives]

What does Charlotte have to do with this? We're concerned with being the best Charlotte we can be, and we're doing one hell of a job with that. And right now, we're not concerned with developing edge cities that rival our CBD in terms of office space, corporate relocations, amenities, etc. and I hope it stays that way for a long time.

I love the idea of "being the best Charlotte we can be." Jacksonville should focus on that.

However, Charlotte is related to and indebted to Atlanta in many ways. By fostering a low-tax, low-overhead climate for business, while providing a great standard of living for not a lot of money, Charlotte is certainly playing by the Atlanta playbook. Moreover, Atlantans are quite aware that Charlotte, Memphis and Nashville have been growing along lines that The Big Peach pioneered and are starting to view those metropolii as rival cities, rather than complimentary cities. And you have to give Atlanta props; they certainly play to win, even if I don't agree with the way in which they approach the game (I'm just liberal enough to want to pay some taxes for...you know, services and education for the well-being of the whole.)

Finally, edge cities aren't really developed...and Atlanta, Los Angeles, Miami, DC, Boston, Philly, etc. didn't exactly go out of their way to create the edge cities. Nobody really thought that the Perimeter Mall north of Atlanta would attract a bunch of office towers. Nobody really imagined that Tysons Corner and Tysons II in Virginia would be ringed by office towers, so much so that it's the largest agglomeration of office space in the DC area. Charlotte benefits from learning from past mistakes made in larger, more developed cities like Atlanta in this regard. However, most of the cities with edge cities are actively trying to redevelop them into something more, something pedestrian-friendly, and something lasting and tangible. In DC, there are examples of successes here (Silver Springs, Bethesda, Arlington's Crystal City,) and works-in-progress (Tyson's Corner.)

To use Atlanta as an example, they arte trying to unify and connect the regions, the "edge cities" inside the perimeter, as well as transform "Perimeter Center" into a "fake downtown." When they succeed (and I have little doubt that a metropolis as dynamic as Atlanta won't succeed,) Atlanta will have several, viable "downtowns," much like DC does at present, which will make them all the more competitive.

Charlotte is part of the story because a great deal of the tale of Charlotte's success involves looking at Atlanta, and how that region essentially created, invented...the New South.

[GideonGlib]

A Jacksonville native, and current resident who lived in Atlanta for 7 years, working in one of the buildings in these photos and living in another, I can tell you the one thing Atlanta does offer is parking decks, and better land use for parking deck/retail combos that fit lots of retail and people and cars into smaller intown areas.

Jacksonville has a lot more natural beauty to work with, the beaches, the river, and older neighborhoods like Springfield that if they were ever restored would put the Poncy/Virginia Highlands to shame.

Jacksonville will never be Atlanta, and shouldn't try, it could be better, the one thing I miss there is progressive growth oriented Government. The things we should emulate from Atlanta are a government that doesn't favor development in some neighborhoods over others, an attitude that you focus on the business to be done, and the rest will follow, and zoning (well, at least prior to shutting down the midtown 24-hour nightspots) that encourages areas that are less desirable to use bars/restraunts/adult venues/etc to create environments that attract people.

People forget that midtown and Techwood were once ghettos far worse than anything we have in Jacksonville, and it took a progression of forward thinking minority groups transforming the area two decades to create the clean, yuppie oriented neighborhood you see today, before that Peachtree/10th/Ponce were a lot of all night gay bars, tranny hustlers, drug dealers, and seedy dive bars. It's cleaned up now, but it's roots are not in redevlopment plans, clean family fun and "upscale" shopping, and it was still largely that way less than 10 years ago.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Great post GideonGlib. I lived in Midtown a yr with a total of 8yrs altogether in the ATL. When I moved back to Jax in 03 I was excited with all the new developments, super bowl on the way, new court house, etc, etc. But I soon realized where I was and why I left. Atlanta has changed and wow has it grown since I left. If given the chance I would move back in a heart beat. With our current leadership and the mentality of this area I feel we will see more of the same, pocket parks for the homeless to roam and boaring architecture, that's if anything is built here.

[GideonGlib]

It's funny, even back in 2003 Midtown was largely a gay ghetto, now, with the 17th Street Developments, Backstreet being torn down to placate yuppie condo owners, and development everywhere it's funny to me how the demographics have changed, and while the neighborhood is still diverse it is increasingly younger, whiter, and more homogenized.

I don't really see that as an all bad thing, because now similar revitalizations are well underway, spearheaded by a lot of the same folks who were early pioneers of Midtown,  in the WestEnd, East Atlanta, Kirkwood, etc... neighborhoods are being refreshed, diversified, cleaned up and becoming more vibrant.

It's interesting to me that Jacksonville has been slower to see those same trends, and that Riverside wasn't abandoned to the yuppies 10 years ago by the gay/artist/hipster/urban pioneer folks beating a path to Springfield, and that the developers have yet to descend onto Brooklyn with it's excellent access to the interstate AND the core city with a mixed use residential/retail plan. Can you imagine how great it would be to see an Ikea right off the new Forrest Street/I-95 exit, surrounded by a Target, a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's extending down to Riverside Avenue, and all surrounded by townhouses and condo's with an only partially obscured river view  being serviced by a skyway stop that connected the area with downtown and san marco?   One decent development like that would make Jacksonville forget the "Town Center" and flock into the urban core.

It's sad that developers and the city can't work together on a vision like that to replace the historic structures that were town down in Brooklyn to make way for the new interstate access and road work.

[Overstreet]

Y'all do realize that Buckhead was once a suburb of Atlanta.

[tufsu1]

don't tell Stephen that!

[mtraininjax]

Atlanta has changed and wow has it grown since I left. If given the chance I would move back in a heart beat. With our current leadership and the mentality of this area I feel we will see more of the same, pocket parks for the homeless to roam and boaring architecture, that's if anything is built here.

Keith - You are right dead on. If it were not for the friends my wife has made, since she left ATL for JAX, she would pull me back to ATL in a heartbeat. But as much as we would like growth in Jax, albeit more controlled than ATL, the folks in Atlanta have a real mess of a downtown, with little to no life after 5, other than tourists. I went to GT there and spent 5 years there after graduation and worked at Coke and GP downtown for a few years. As much as ATL tried to grow downtown, Midtown and Buckhead seemed to pull people further north. The developments on Peachtree from I-85 to GA 400 are incredible, I did not believe it when I saw it last week.

ATL also has a multi-billion dollar water system/pipe infrastructure project going on, police equipment failures, Fire and Rescue issues, as well as counties and cities who want to pull out of being part of the city due to paying for services they feel are unfair in their areas. Jax has little to none of that. We are so much further ahead, albeit backward in some cases, but we are not having to pay the piper for years of overdevelopment downtown without the infrastructure to support it. ATL will survive, but its residents are being taxed to death to support the new lifestyle.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Well I will agree with you there. I don't miss the taxes nor the traffic, but its amazing has fast that place has grown.

[coredumped]

Does anyone think our butler area could become like midtown (financial-type district).

[thelakelander]

No, I don't.  Our version of "Midtown" would be the Southbank or Brooklyn/Riverside Ave.

[coredumped]

No, I don't.  Our version of "Midtown" would be the Southbank or Brooklyn/Riverside Ave.

Isn't that considered part of downtown? It seems that with the beach building upwards, downtown already with tall buildings, butler area (ADT, citi, etc) would be the middle of town. Just my $0.02

[tufsu1]

well some call the Butler area midtown (check the townhomes west of Southside)...but when comparing Atlanta's "northern downtown", Lake is right using the Southbank or Brooklyn areas

[thelakelander]

I consider Atlanta's Midtown to be about the same thing as Miami's Brickell or Detroit's New Center.  Its an extension of DT.  JTB is too far away from DT to be considered a "Midtown" and too spread out to be considered a "financial district."  The JTB corridor could turn out to be something like Buckhead but it would take a couple of decades and massives changes to the comp plan to pull it off.  In other words, I would not hold my breath.

No, I don't.  Our version of "Midtown" would be the Southbank or Brooklyn/Riverside Ave.

Isn't that considered part of downtown? It seems that with the beach building upwards, downtown already with tall buildings, butler area (ADT, citi, etc) would be the middle of town. Just my $0.02

Or the middle of the Southside.  Although Brooklyn and the Southbank are included in the CBD's boundaries, historically they are independent areas and have similar development patterns to an Atlanta's Midtown or a Miami's Brickell.  JTB is more like Tampa's Westshore, Orlando's Heathrow or Atlanta's Cumberland/Galleria area.  A suburban edge city.

[Charles Hunter]

Distance-wise, where would Midtown be in the same relation to downtown Jax as it is to DT ATL?  In each direction.

[thelakelander]

Springfield to the North, the Southbank to the South.  Midtown is separated from DT Atlanta by I-75/85.