A Closer Look at the Transportation Center

[stjr]

As to the looks, what do you expect from a bunch of road building agencies?  Like the Fuller Warren Bridge (see thread at http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4347.0.html ), this complex will be in a position to make a first impression of the City on visitors as it is at the intersection of a main interstate gateway into downtown Jacksonville and the entry points from the Acosta Bridge and Riverside Viaduct.  And what will it say to those who come upon it?  We are cheap, unimaginative, boring, and lack transcendent visions.  And, further, when visitors go to use it, they will wonder who in the world could design such a scheme so unfriendly to its users.

Aside from the dull and drab design, I second the notion that our priorities are out of order here.  Phase I should be the Amtrak Station and Streetcars, not more money for non-productive facilities and failed transit operations [a new office building for bureaucrats, more dollars being poured down the worthless $ky-high-way rat hole, and investment in a new bus terminal (by the way, what happens to Rosa Parks on Union after this?) when we aren't doing anything to improve bus service to an acceptable level].

Lastly, the whole multi-block layout is too spread out to be user friendly and is driven by the overhead cross-connector from the bureaucrat's building to the cross-connecting concourse which should be on the next block eastward.  By the way, why is there an overhead cross-connector for the bureaucrats anyway?  Didn't we just have a discussion that such a crosswalk was unnecessary for the State Attorney's Office to the new courthouse?  So, why should this be acceptable for hundreds of thousands of dollars?  More proof about what is really front and center with this project.

Another downtown fiasco on par with the courthouse, convention center, Adams Mark/Hyatt, Shipyards, $ky-high-way, and the Landing.  A perfect batting ratio for failure. Way to go!

Interested parties should also go back and reread the extensive previous threads on this subject including:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6735.0.html

and

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-jacksonville-transportation-center-moves-forward

Here are some additional comments of mine I am quoting for expediency:

The first thing that strikes me is the HUGE failure to have an all-weather airport-style concourse with moving sidewalks and handicapped car pathway connecting ALL modes of transit from Amtrak to Greyhound running down JOHNSON STREET to minimize connectivity times and travel distance.  Connecting to the office building is not why this project is on the boards and should not dictate the location of the connecting concourse.

Also, where is the master plan for streetcar connectivity?  Taxi cabs?  Bikes?  Rental cars? A hotel?  Visitors bureau? I could add lots more things to put here.  And, as noted, this could be made much more compact with better planning and maybe use of multilayering (e.g. bus terminal under the $ky-high-way or below the Greyhound facility) rather than building outward.

Has JTA/FDOT ever heard of "brain storming", talking with users or potential users, going to see other facilities to find what works well and what doesn't?  Or, are they too "smart" for that?  This looks like a product of the usual bureaucratic process mixed with incestuous thinking with the same worthless consultants and JTA/FDOT "experts".  This "proven" method of operation is guaranteed to produce a result lacking in creativity, vision, inspiration, or full functionality and fulfillment of purpose.

This isn't being approached as an intermodal facility, but rather as separate functions that happen to be side by side.  And, the real driver is getting nice, new offices for all the bureaucrats, not serving the travelling public.  The architects, consultants, JTA, COJ, and FDOT clearly aren't up to this task.  As a result, for now, I withhold my support based on the current plans.  I hope the Feds don't do us another $ky-high-way style "favor" and fund this as it is currently proposed.

And:

BRT and the $ky-high-way on the same block!  That says it all   Need I say more?

Separately, let's do a little virtualization of the future concept.  A commuter train arrives, deposits 300 (a low number for a train) downtown workers at Prime Osborn.  These 300 commuters then walk north the equivalent of a block and a half from the train and through the terminal.  Because JTA workers selfishly want to walk out their office door to play with their expensive toys, commuters must then walk west for another block down the side of the convention center to the "JTA office concourse".  From there, they must again walk north across the street for another half block to the $ky-high-way station.  I count that as a three block walk just to TRANSFER.

And, now for some more fun.  The 300 riders crowd the undersized $ky-high-way platform waiting for the under capacity $ky-high-way to show up every 15 minutes, if they are lucky.  Maybe, after 45 minutes, or more, all 300 have caught a ride "into town".  But wait!  During that 45 minutes or more, another commuter train arrived from the opposite side of town at the Amtrak station and dropped another 300 riders off.  Finally, by mid-afternoon, the $ky-high-way has caught up with the train loads of commuters. This was such a "success", we will repeat the process in reverse in the late afternoon.

Soooo...the question is, how many people are projected to arrive at various intervals on high-capacity commuter trains and how will the low capacity $ky-high-way ever be able to keep up?  And, who will walk three blocks just for an intermodal transfer?    And, we still haven't addressed the $ky-high-way's evil twin, the BRT, and it's added traffic load on the $ky-high-way.  Or is JTA figuring no one is going to ride any of this stuff anyway, so who cares about matching capacities.  The way JTA runs and designs things for failure, they may be right.

[A-Finnius]

I'm going to jump on the "Bandwagon" here and say that I don't really care for the design either.   But honestly what I'm more concerned about is when is the skyway going to extend into riverside so that I don't have to drive to work anymore. 

Why would I drive a mile (+) to the terminal, park and then ride this joke of a mass transit system a half mile to work. 

Until we have an "L", a streetcar or even a trolley system that serves at least our urban neighborhoods then this whole project is impractical.   

[mtraininjax]

If looks are important, and it sounds like they are, let's just be done with it and turn it into a Southside Strip Center with the same boorish designs that were incorporated in the Barnett Office Park. Why break tradition in NE Florida?

[tufsu1]

But honestly what I'm more concerned about is when is the skyway going to extend into riverside so that I don't have to drive to work anymore. 

Why would I drive a mile (+) to the terminal, park and then ride this joke of a mass transit system a half mile to work. 

I wouldn't hold your breath on any Skyway extensions...maybe streetcars to Riverside.

That said, the reason for driving to a Park & Ride is that you save money over parking in the core...if our dowtown garages cost $200+ a month (like in many cities), you might be willing to park at the Prime Osborne and take the Skyway!

[Ocklawaha]

. . . and cater to the trapped people . . . when it's fact, it’s not snobby.  Have you ever found yourself going out of your way to eat at a Greyhound station?  I’m guessing no.

As a matter of fact, on occasion I got lunch at the bus station in Tallahassee (my office was 2 blocks away)....and I regularly go to places like Burger King, Arby's, etc.

TUFSU1 Damn sorry all those bus restaurants are so sleazy!


The COACHES (note to all: NOT A BUS) are so primitive and, uh, low class!


The Styling is WAY out of date! Completely unappealing!


The interior's are filthy, no civilized man or woman would want to ride!


The conditions will be like the Third World!


You can bet if You, Lake, and I designed a bus terminal, it would be just as ugly!

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

I wish those renderings were more "in place" and showed how the building would look next to the I-95 ramps.  In the pictures, it looks like its out in the middle of open spaces.

[samiam]

I have said it before the biggest problem is the position of the office RTMC It block any future expansion of the skyway. If they did expland it into Brooklyn, the stadium and springfield the ridership would increase dramatically and furthermore any expansion does not  have to be the huge roman aqueducts that they have for the currents skyway they are way overbuilt

[jeh1980]

Looks very nice! I hope we will see it get built very soon!

[TheProfessor]

This is not a if you build it they will come situation.  Let's make it sexy and spark some interest so they will come.

[CS Foltz]

Design could be lots more appealing and the location is still bothering me.......no expansion for much of anything! I have yet to see anything about the funding for the white elephant and it worry's me that this thing will come to be like the Courthouse approved at $190 by the voters! It also does not allow for easy movement from one end to the other and I still have issue's with being able to connect to FEC/CSX rail from proposed location!

[Bike Jax]

As is usual for Jacksonville. The "transportation center" makes accommodations for all but one mode of transportation, the lowly bicycle. While major cities are making bicycle transportation a priority within their transportation plans and centers with bike lockers, racks, and even showers. Jacksonville will retain it's status as a second tier city with their lack forward thinking and vision. Oh, and the design sucks ass. It has all the architectural appeal of Regency Square Mall.

[CS Foltz]

I agree Bike Jax! Design could be lots better as to integrating within the City and it's varying architecture! I think we could better and something more cost effective! Location still leaves me cold and transiting from one end to the other leaves a lot to be desired! Somehow I don't think people would be willing to walk the entire length so what are they to do? I agree...........lack of vision and planning.....we appear to spend more playing catch up rather then being active to start with!

[stjr]

As is usual for Jacksonville. The "transportation center" makes accommodations for all but one mode of transportation, the lowly bicycle. While major cities are making bicycle transportation a priority within their transportation plans and centers with bike lockers, racks, and even showers. Jacksonville will retain it's status as a second tier city with their lack forward thinking and vision. Oh, and the design sucks ass. It has all the architectural appeal of Regency Square Mall.

BikeJax, nothing about bikes...or taxis and streetcars ...and very little for pedestrians when you look at how long and roundabout the walking connections will be between modes and the absence of moving sidewalks.

This center will do much to kill Downtown for the next 40 years or more as we blow a great opportunity to make Downtown uniquely livable, connected, convenient, and user-friendly.  The Times Union should archive their recent series on Downtown as they will be able to rerun it in a few decades without changing a word.

[CS Foltz]

stjr............nice touch on the "archive" part and only too true!

[tufsu1]

I have said it before the biggest problem is the position of the office RTMC It block any future expansion of the skyway. If they did expland it into Brooklyn, the stadium and springfield the ridership would increase dramatically and furthermore any expansion does not  have to be the huge roman aqueducts that they have for the currents skyway they are way overbuilt

The building would have no effect on expansion...no one is talking about going westward....Brooklyn line would come off the maintenance track near the Acosta Bridge.

As for the questions regarding cost, the entire center has been estimated at somewhere around $120 million...but the only part that's been nailed down beyond general estimates is the Phase 1 shown here....the cost of it is $60 million.