Moving Forward: Oklahoma City

[AaroniusLives]

(BTW, the area where the stadium is and that I was talking about is Southeast, not Southwest.)

You are technically correct...although they are calling that rapidly developing area "Near Southeast." I'm uncertain as to the TOP in Southeast-Southeast that you are referring to, unless it's the never-ending attempt to revive Anacostia, which makes waking up Downtown Jacksonville look like turning on a clock-radio in comparison.

So, it would help to know which TOD you're talking about...

...although, perhaps not. Not every attempt is going to work. Does that mean you shouldn't try? Does that mean you should continue to make the efforts that have proven fruitless? Most TOD development has proven to be successful using mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly ideals.

That's like saying people in Vienna have access to shopping, dining and retail via the Metro.  It sort of defeats the purpose of living in a dense, walkable area if you have to take the Metro to do basic shopping.

Errr, not quite. That Metro station, as you very well know, is a commuter station on the end of the Orange Line. It's designed to park and ride car-dependent commuters into the city, or into Rosslyn. It is not remotely located in a pedestrian-friendly environment whatsoever. It has been criticized numerous times as an example of a failure to capitalize on the Metro, usually as a contrast to the success of the Arlington urban villages concept. It only gets a walkscore of 34, as it's not designed to be walked around upon. But, you knew that.

Read more here http://virginiaplaces.org/vagupnova/smarttransportation.html:

Fairfax County chose a different strategy when designing the route of Metro. It placed the Orange Line at a distance from any existing development, in the middle of I-66 (which was "free" and involved no acquisition or tunneling costs). Then, instead of zoning the land around Metro stations for dense development, Fairfax allowed Metro to build parking lots that isolated the stations even more from surrounding development. It required a 1/4 mile walk just to cross the pavement to reach the trains.

The final failure was the county's unwillingness to zone for tall tower development next to the Vienna station, at the end of the Orange Line. After local opposition to increased traffic from proposed new development, Fairfax authorized only low-rise townhome developments to the north and west of the station. Both were completed within the last 10 years, so that residential land is not ready for redevelopment into a mixed use town center.

The Ballpark District/Near Southeast gets a Walkscore of 88. Isherwood ST NE, knee-deep in crack town, gets an 87. Barnaby Woods, the lowest scoring 'hood in DC, gets a Walkscore of 44, higher than the Vienna Metro station area by ten points.

[tufsu1]

the photo above shows the Navy Yard Metro Station.  If my memory serves me correctly from my days of living there, that is in the Southeast quadrant, pretty much on the border of the Southwest.

correct...this station is at most 4 blocks from the stadium

[finehoe]

So, it would help to know which TOD you're talking about...

I was talking about the Safeway in Lake's first photo, which is quite a hike from the residences around the ballpark, necessitating crossing a busy arterial road and then traveling through the projects.  The other pictures s/he posted are indeed of TOD around the Navy Yard stop near the ballpark, but as the huge banner on the one building shows, they are far from full.

Your recitation of the walkability scores of various Metro stops misses the point.  If someone moves to a dense, walkable 'hood, it's generally so they can partake of urban living, like walking to the grocery store, going around the corner to have a drink, or meeting friends at the restuarant down the street.  If they have to get on the subway to do that, they might as well live in Vienna.

[rjp2008]

Jax is stuck in the 1950's and 60's. Everything seems old. Changes happen very, very slowly. I lived there briefly in 99, then returned last summer for the first time since. I was shocked how little had changed if at all. At the start of the decade, it seemed like a city on the rise, even though back then I almost NEVER went downtown.

One thing going for it is that it's a very pro-family area. With the abundance of suburbia, there's not a lot of concern for entertainment life or being some kind of east coast attraction. People care about working hard, raising decent families, participating in church and community, and that's it.

[Ocklawaha]

(Above) El Reno Interurban Railway became part of the Oklahoma Railway
El Reno has rebuilt the line downtown and has one car operating.(Below)


Having been a City Councilman in Oklahoma, I think I have pretty good insight on where we stand in relation to OKC. Also, it should be noted that NO other city is broadcasting more Anti-Jacksonville crap then OKC, as the media there is having a Jaguar/Jacksonville/Failed Everything Feeding Frenzy.

It's hard to visit or talk to either of my sons (who live in Mustang and OKC respectively) when they constantly bemoan the treatment they are getting for being Losers From Jacksonville! What kind of Losers? Beats me, one is a Goodwrench Mechanic, and the other Supervisor of drilling for a NW OK, N. TX, SW KS, SE CO, oil drilling outfitter.


Oklahoma City's Interurban and Streetcar Lines today... Barely a shadow remains. If the Interurban's had not carried freight and switched local industries, some of which kept their rail service by begging the State to allow "steam railroads" to take over a few miles of track. there wouldn't be a trace today.


Much has been said of OKC and Mass Transit. True they have a streetcar plan, they have had one since about 1970. Many times (wonder why) when I was there we talked about rebuilding a system that was once much larger then Jacksonville's. In fact they had both a City system as well as a rapid Interurban Line to outlaying towns called The Oklahoma Railway.

The Oklahoma Railway reached North to Guthrie (the rightful state capital), South to Norman (OU), and West to El Reno (HQ Southern District of the Rock Island Railroad and home to massive yards, ALL abandoned today, thanks to the Bush and Clinton families!) This would have been the milage equivalent of Downtown Jax to the Beach and Mayport, Downtown to Yulee and Fernandina Beach, and Downtown to Palatka. When the OK RY stopped service on all lines, replacing rail with motor coach, ridership plunged 97.9%... (See Mike, people really do love buses, well at least 2.1% of them do!)


Today ridership and system size in Oklahoma's largest city are dwarfed by JTA, in miles, routes, equipment, headways, intermodal choice, express bus, fixed transit etc...

So how about some Sustainability Numbers? How does OKC stack up to JAX? OKIE DOKIE! NATIONS 50 LARGEST CITIES:

Air Quality, EPA Index, Best Air to Worst Air, Jacksonville #14, OKC #17
Commuting Via Public Transit and Walk to Work, Jacksonville #38, OKC #44
INNOVATION (Ranked on, Ride Share, Green Incentives + Original Idea, OKC #34, JACKSONVILLE N/A!
ENERGY & CLIMATE, Gas Tracking, Renewable Energy, Carbon Credits, OKC #43, JACKSONVILLE N/A!
Green Building, LEED Tiers per capita, Jacksonville #27, OKC #44
Green Economy, Farm Mkt., Incubator of Green Tech, Local Green Directory, Jacksonville #40, OKC #44
HOUSING AFFORDABILITY OKC #6, JACKSONVILLE #17
SUSTAINABILITY KNOWLEDGE/PLAN OKC #38, JACKSONVILLE N/A!
LOCAL FOOD AGRICULTURE, Proximity to local farm products, OKC #41, JACKSONVILLE #44
LEAST CONGESTED CITIES, Urban mobility Report from TX A&M, OKC #7, JACKSONVILLE #17
Transit Ridership, Jacksonville #36, OKC #50   "... As I was saying...OOP'S!"
Natural Disaster - Safest to Worst Risk, #32, OKC #39
Land Use Planning - From Best to Worst in Sprawl, Parks, TOD's, Jacksonville #31, OKC #50
TAP WATER QUALITY, OKC #8, JACKSONVILLE #11 (So much for the recent reports, we are near the top)
Waste Management, Cities with better Recycle to Land Fill ratios,  Jacksonville #25, OKC #46
Solid Water Supply Longevity, Jacksonville #7, OKC #13

OVERALL RANK, Jacksonville #23RD BEST in USA (up 13 spots over last year), OKC #49 (same as before)



OKC'S Stunningly beautiful Union Station is 100% intact, it is the center of Statewide plans to operate a State passenger rail network. The building itself is fully restored, and with removal of the downtown postal sorting center, a broad park would extend from about the Crystal Bridge to the Station itself. So what is OKC doing about it? Building I-40, 15 feet from the back wall, FOREVER shutting off ANY access to the railroad system of the State. Can you spell Oil? Believe me, it CAN be a 4 letter word, and I bet you thought Jacksonville was bad?

Transit Use in OKC is HORRIBLE, Far, Far, worse then our worst nightmare with JTA! Jacksonville enjoys a Transit Ridership and about 5-7% of all commuters use some form of mass transit. Oklahoma City, has a road system well suited to its small population of commuters (547,255), as 48% of workers get to their jobs in fewer than 20 minutes. As the city grows, however, it may be confronted with the problem of an extremely limited public transit system. Less than 1% of people take public transportation to work, while 2% walk. Next to OKC, JTA ROCKS! Just imagine what we would look like in any of the above category's with Commuter Rail, Streetcars, Skyway, BRT, City Bus, or Water Taxis, take your pick... (They do have a better model railroad store however) "Doth not thou thinkith, we shalt blow them clear of the water, Gridley!"

[AaroniusLives]

If someone moves to a dense, walkable 'hood, it's generally so they can partake of urban living, like walking to the grocery store, going around the corner to have a drink, or meeting friends at the restuarant down the street.  If they have to get on the subway to do that, they might as well live in Vienna.

That's changing your argument.

That's like saying people in Vienna have access to shopping, dining and retail via the Metro.  It sort of defeats the purpose of living in a dense, walkable area if you have to take the Metro to do basic shopping.

Since nobody who lives near the Vienna Metro considers it to be a walkable area, it doesn't compare well to Near Southeast, or for that matter Anacostia, where both are walkable, and yet both are not exactly blessed with essential retail. However, unlike Vienna, where one would take their life in their hands to get to the Metro station, and one would freeze or burn on the never-ending parking lot, one could walk to a Metro station in Near Southeast or Vienna and go to a Safeway, Giant or Target in a few minutes. 

[finehoe]

That's changing your argument.

How so?  My argument is that if you are to have successful infill development, you need to have more than just shiny new buildings in a neighborhood.  If the residents need to get in their car, hop on the subway, take a bus, ride a horse and buggy, whatever, to another neighborhood to partake of urban life, then the project can't be called successful and they are little better off than if they lived in suburbia.

Since nobody who lives near the Vienna Metro considers it to be a walkable area, it doesn't compare well to Near Southeast, or for that matter Anacostia, where both are walkable, and yet both are not exactly blessed with essential retail.  

Jeez, talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees.  It's not about effing Vienna.  I could just as easily said Fort Totten or Grosvenor, or any one of the stations where there is no there there.  It's about planners/developers/politicians thinking that by plopping some condos down somewhere without the attendant services and amenities that make it a desirable place to live believing that they have succeeded just because they have built some new buildings.  My whole point is that this is exactly the trap Jacksonville often falls into, and the ballpark area illustrates that you need more than just a few condos and some office buildings, you need stores, restaurants, nightlife, etc. Otherwise the venture will not work the way you want.

It's hilarious that you are arguing with me about this since I was throwing it out in support of your point about the chicken and the egg.

[thelakelander]

Wow, Metro Jacksonville definitely gets the news out there.  I had no idea, Oklahoma City people would have discovered the Metro Jacksonville story so quick.

[Wacca Pilatka]

My sister worked in Bricktown at the start of this decade, in the Oklahoma Hardware building.  It was just in the early stages of its comeback then; the ballpark and canal were in place along with a smattering of restaurants and nightlife, but the residential, Bass Pro Shops, and Sonic HQ were not.  There was not very much foot traffic day or night, though the potential was obvious.

Oklahoma City is one of the few cities whose people are as friendly as Jacksonville's, so I'm glad to see it doing well.  Out of curiosity, did you happen to see the Automobile Alley neighborhood north of Bricktown?  I found this to be a fascinating strip--old car dealership buildings not unlike the Claude Nolan pre-remodeling, lots of well-preserved auto signage--but not much was going on there at the time other than themed banners and a coffee shop.  It's nice to see in the OKC article Stephen posted that it has become a loft district.  I really wanted to see it take off, but I haven't been back there since late '02 or so.

One quibble with the linked article from OKC, though: while it makes many valid points, I take issue with its presumption that the Jaguars are leaving and the somewhat haughty comment that OKC continues to sell out Thunder games.  Considering the Thunder have only been around for two years, that'd be like our trumpeting our NFL attendance in 1995 or 1996.

[thelakelander]

I'm loving the Oklahoma City discussion about Jacksonville.  Its really telling to hear people who visit the city giving their opinions of it.

[reednavy]

Let's take over City Hall and the CVB.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Reednavy the city/cvb are well aware of this site. Unfortunately comprehension is not required to be a city leader or mayor for that matter in the COJ. If it were we'd probably not be having this discussion. Anyway another nice piece of work. It's obvious that people have learned to live with cold weather as well as hurricanes, earthquakes, and tornadoes.

[finehoe]

"...much of the revival of downtown is being financed by taxpayers, who have a history of approving taxes to improve the city. In 1993, city voters approved a temporary one-cent increase in the sales tax to redevelop the riverfront, renovate the fairgrounds and build a ballpark, sports arena, library, trolley system, and a mile-long canal. For the next 15 years, residents have voted to continue paying for renovations on all the city’s public schools and the river. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/realestate/commercial/27devon.html?scp=1&sq=Oklahoma%20City&st=cse

[fsu813]

RANTS & RAVES: Jacksonville could learn from Oklahoma City

Ron Littlepage's opinion piece in Sunday's paper is spot-on. I live in Jacksonville but married into a family from Oklahoma City. Jacksonville and Oklahoma City are very similar in many ways except we have a lot more waterfront. For about 10 years I have watched the sales tax initiative, called MAPS, in Oklahoma City transform Bricktown, a blighted industrial area adjacent to their downtown, into a thriving urban core. On a recent flight to Oklahoma City, a woman asked me about Jacksonville. Puzzled, she asked, "That river is beautiful - why doesn't anyone use it?" How long will we argue and wonder about what type of city we want to live in? Do we, the citizens of Jacksonville have the courage to step boldly toward a better future? If so, Oklahoma City provides a good guide.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-09/story/rants_raves_jacksonville_could_learn_from_oklahoma_city

[fsujax]

Went to a meet the Mayor breakfast sponsored by ULI this morning. The Mayor talked about the three projects  for Downtown (Frienship Fountain, etc.) and the Convention Center, but when asked about mass transit.....well, let's just say it wasn't good. He did mention the JRTC and busways, but said that "light rail" is probably still 20 years away. Looks like you guys still have some major selling to do!