Northstar Commuter Rail Service begins in Minneapolis

[Ocklawaha]

Secession of the entire state from the UNION makes a hell of a lot more sense... LA REPUBLICA FLORIDA! VIVA!


OCKLAWAHA
...always a Rebel!

[ralpho37]

I definitely agree, Lake.  We should come up with a report of all these other cities' rail projects to submit to the City Council.

Great idea Ralph, but can they read with any comprehension?

OCKLAWAHA

Maybe if we used real small words...

[CS Foltz]

I see what could be.........and I see what we have......talk about Backwater USA! It just breaks my heart to be lead around with incompetents at the helm and all I get to do is pay for it all! I was thinking about moving elsewhere but the same problems exist everywhere so I just plan on standing my ground and becoming one irritating pain in the backside to the local government (State/Federal included)

[tufsu1]

Cool story my Girlfriend and I are planning a trip to Minneapolis in September 2010. This info will help us check out Hotels / Condos in which we will stay at while Visiting the area. Once again great story and keep them coming!

they also have a new light rail line you can look into

[Ocklawaha]

About the Rock Island RDC:

The Rock Island's first RDCs were two RDC-3's which entered service in August of 1953, running between Oklahoma city and Little Rock. Each train made a daily run of 355 miles... an impressive distance for a single, self propelled unit. This run was even extended one year later to span from Amarillo TX, and Memphis TN, renaming the service to the Choctaw Rocket and earning the RDCs the name "Rockettes" (no, there was no connection to THE rockettes in New york City...). The twin RDC "train" ran over 762 miles... at the time the longest RDC run in the country.

RDC Types
There are four types of RDC, each with a noticably different car body. The RDC-1 is a Passenger-only RDC with 90 passenger capacity, the RDC-2 is a Passenger/Baggage car with seating for 70 passengers, the RDC-3 is a Passenger/Baggage/RPO car with seating for 49 and a baggage and post office compartment. The RDC-4 was an RPO only car, shorter than other RDCs by 20 feet.

I don't think locomotive hauled trains of bi-level cars are really the answer for Jacksonville in phase one. I'd still go for commuter rail with 20+ remanufactured RDC cars available from Industrial Rail Services in Canada. These cars were originally designed to turn a profit with a 50% load factor and two man crew. While I'm not predicting a profit, an RDC's fuel economy being superior to the late Colorado Railcar DMU's, and the price being a fraction of the same, I can't imagine us taking a financial bath with them.

Our biggest problem might be the station itself, where JTA plans virtually no space for Commuter Rail platforms, and the "what if" plan they do have is a disjointed nightmare. "Northside, and Westside, trains will leave from new platforms built next to Bay Street, West of the oldest depot building. The Southside trains will enter and leave from the Amtrak Platforms under Lee Street next to McCoys Creek." Wow, I don't know what those boys were smoking, but I'd give them $50 bucks for some.



OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

I agree Ock.............no frills.....a lean and mean people moving machine! Preferably multiples on about a 20 minute schedule! Covering the outlying area's to downtown ........but wish in one hand and void in the other and see which fills up the quickest! Bi-level cars on a start-up system is kinda silly if your going for a lean operation but that's just me! This is not Minneapolis.........I'm glad of it, way too cold for me!

[Ocklawaha]

Leaving Dallas for Worth on the Trinity RDC train, during rush hours they can be coupled into a train of as many cars as needed with a single operator. During off hours the RDC can operate as a single car train.

Certainly the Choctaw Rocket should be enough evidence for the RDC nay Sayer's. You wouldn't believe the "sudden expert" opinions that I have heard already on the RDC. Usually slanted toward, "It can't stand up to commuter service," "Too small," "Too Slow," or some other ignorant line. Every bit of these opinions are completely unfounded. That Choctaw Rocket ran across the prairie and the Ouachita Mountains at 80 MPH! EVERY DAY!

A re-manufactured RDC car is for all intents and purposes BRAND NEW. This shouldn't be confused with a rebuilt or up graded - rebuilt car.

The rebuilds use the same mechanical systems, but every hose, wire, pipe, drive shaft, etcetera, is carefully checked and anything worn is replaced. The interiors are reupholstered and scratched windows replaced with new floor mats.

A re-manufactured unit is taken down to the bare bones, in this case stainless steel. Every dent and ripple is worked out and the skin polished to a mirror finish. Every componet from restroom, seats, engine, drive train, climate control, flooring, windows, doors, lights, control stand, horns... EVERYTHING is reinstalled brand new. The cars come with guarantee, service, and parts available...

But guess what? Orlando is getting the Colorado Rail Cars that are running in Miami today, it will also probably get new locomotives and gallery cars. Can Jacksonville stand the RDC's in light of Orlando and South Florida's trains? Let's just say, NOT to go with the RDC could be a fatal error, forget keeping up with the neighbors and lets cut our own simple, clean and economical path. It is also my understanding among the industry insiders that the Dallas-Ft.Worth Trinity Rail Express has been taking to us about their fleet of RDC's, which were also rebuilt for service on their starter line. The Trinity cars chock up the miles every day, but with the arrival of longer, larger, locomotive and coach trains, they could be looking for a new home, and we could get a steal.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Ock, anyone other than Dallas using RDCs in the US today?  Any idea of what may have happened to the RDCs that Syracuse was using before their commuter rail line shut down two years ago?

[Ocklawaha]

http://www.youtube.com/v/PiAWkxVP_Tw&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1

http://www.youtube.com/v/HWOsboSJzLY&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1

Ock, anyone other than Dallas using RDCs in the US today?  Any idea of what may have happened to the RDCs that Syracuse was using before their commuter rail line shut down two years ago?

The Syracuse cars are either sitting growing up in weeds, or sold. I know two WERE sold, and the other two for sale but M/L abandoned.

The RDC's are still in regular use in several of the Northeastern Commuter Fleets, as well as Amtrak, which owns the last models of the cars called the SPV2000. Canada still has an extensive fleet and use of the cars, Victoria and Vancouver Island still has a wandering RDC on an adventure trip. Alaska RR still runs RDC's as well.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Well the "RDC's" could find a home here in Jacksonville and makes sense to recycle something that is useable elsewhere! Now all we need is some tracks beyond what CSX has and away we go! A couple of really large umbrella's for some stop weather coverage and poof............system is up and running! (Yes I know a simplistic overview but still a viable scenario and alot cheaper then BRT!)

[tufsu1]

so are you suggesting the state build its own set of tracks (because that's what HSR does)?

[Ocklawaha]

http://www.youtube.com/v/GYD4zdjInfk&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
... another day and another "what if" video...

TUSFU, I believe CS was referring to capacity expansion, which WILL require some new tracks. There is a big difference in new track and a new route. The only new route that we would ever need to build (and that's highly iffy) is from Downtown to the Beaches, however that route would probably be better as Light Rail Transit and not RDC's or DMU's. The CSX and FEC routes we currently have would need very little effort aside from stations and platforms, as friend CS pointed out.

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

Ock, are RDC's and Interurbans the same thing? Or were Interurbans run off overhead electrics?

[Ocklawaha]

Actually Dog Walker, the RDC stands for RAIL DIESEL CAR, while INTERURBAN refers to travel between urban centers. The term is in a similar vein as INTERSTATE, meaning the crossing of state lines for travel between states as opposed to INTRASTATE, meaning within the bounds of one state.

So now that I have everyone confused, lets just say it IS possible that an RDC could be used in an INTERURBAN type service. In the Northeast and Canada, as well as many remote branchlines, the RDC served and still serves in light to heavy short haul operations. RDC's can run in Multiple units configurations still controlled by a single operator.

In a more specific use of the term, INTERURBAN is generally refers to a class of electric railroads which usually sprung up as a result of a streetcar system out growing it's town, and through mergers with similar systems. America's largest was the Pacific Electric Railroad, where I had my first train ride, the old PE system in Southern California operated over 1,200 miles of track. The northeast, midwest, Carolina's, southwest and Pacific northwest, all had extensive interurban systems. Interurbans were different then streetcars, in that they could use full railroad size vehicles, carried freight and passengers, and attained speeds (in some cases) as high as 100 MPH.

So Interurban, Streetcar or RDC, it all depends on your system design and operating plan.


JAKE Just couldn't understand the concept of a WORKING TRACTION MUSEUM in downtown Jacksonville, I mean afterall, who in hell would go somewhere just to ride a streetcar? I really don't know Jake, you tell me.
http://www.youtube.com/v/m7wMn-ffsW0&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param%20name=

The Flip Side of the "INTERURBAN" on Iowa Traction, last of the rural American Interurbans.
http://www.youtube.com/v/TZbYGVmRMhY&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param%20name=

The next best thing to the electric interurban
http://www.youtube.com/v/8aG55gtl3so&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1

[CS Foltz]

tufsu1 I am referring to the "existing tracks" to start and that would be both CSX and FEC! From what I remember about existing tracks in this part of the world, Jacksonville has tracks on all five sides of town and that could be worked out as to scheduling for commuter useage! I am a firm believer in using what we currently have first before branching out to new territory. New tracks would require ROW/EPA/ENVIRO not to mention the money for acquisition of property/planning/consulting/materials and engineering. Light Rail/Trolley is a whole nother ballgame but doable if the public could be convinced. Skyway is a money hole to the tune of $14 Million a year to operate and a waste of time and resources........BRT should be a feeder system for rail not a stand alone system being touted as "cheaper than rail" which it is not if you start looking at the cost per mile numbers. That is either cost per mile for a BRT Lane or cost per passenger mile. JTA's figures are biased and suspect so I base this explanation on the MJ figures used throughout this thread!