Was the Bus Shelter Story Misreported?

[tufsu1]

ok...sorry...I was not suggesting that the T-U reported anything falselt...just that the viewpoint that the story was misreported is not correct.

Looking back at wha appears to have been said, the T-U article seems to be accurate...it just may have been misinterpreted by some

[CS Foltz]

Well perhaps there should be a standardized method of reporting that kind of information. A mile is a mile , not a route mile! Makes me wonder just what consulting firm came up with this accounting method..............why not make the information plain and simple so most people could understand the blipping stuff? Sometimes some people make things more complicated then they need to be just to substantiate their being involved! I say speak in plain language.....come up with some plain talk to explain how to account miles,mileage and all of the other factors pertaining to a transportation system. Everyone seems to have forgotten the $73 Million Dollars found in an unused account and I have to ask.............what about it?

[Ocklawaha]

I met with the TU yesterday, they DID NOT understand why or how JTA could have used two figures. I explained the difference in the reporting methods used in transportation, either of which could be applied depending on what information you are looking for. It REALLY is plain and simple and was NOT a JTA invention by any stretch:

EXAMPLES:

A bus leaves Rosa Parks, turns right on Main, and makes 3 stops before crossing the bridge into the southside...
Assume that this bus goes on 10 miles, straight south to complete it's route, then it returns on the same roadway. The total trip or was 20 route miles, but only 10 highway miles (since we used the same road both ways). When the bus stops are counted, one could say we have 3 stops downtown, on Main St., Southbound.
If 10 other buses pass the same 3 stops, we now could say we have 30 stops downtown, on Main St., Southbound.

So both miles, and stops can be wildly different and still be CORRECT. With railroads it's the same thing, we have Route Miles and Track Miles, For example Talleyrand Terminal Railroad is perhaps 4 route miles long, from Commodore Point to Springfield Yard. But Talleyrand Terminal Railroad might have 38 miles of tracks in that same space, if one counts all tracks.

At least this is what the TU did not get... They do now.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

I met with the TU yesterday, they DID NOT understand why or how JTA could have used two figures. I explained the difference in the reporting methods used in transportation, either of which could be applied depending on what information you are looking for. It REALLY is plain and simple and was NOT a JTA invention by any stretch:

Ock, here is the issue.  There was a discussion on the table about how many bus shelters might be needed to service the system.  One piece of relevant info would be how many physical locations are in the system where buses stop.  JTA did not provide this information but rather let fly a different calculation that had no relevancy to the discussion at hand.  For this reason, JTA allowed the decision to proceed based on misinformation.  They did the same thing when computing the annual maintenance costs.  JTA again allowed inappropriate info to be relied upon in arriving at a decision.

If JTA did this in error, with respect to such a simple matter, I would question the competency of anything JTA says, especially on more complex issues, because all of it could be based on bad info.  I certainly would hate to be a test pilot for a plane built by JTA.  Their failure rate is unacceptable.

If the misinformation was known to JTA and they deliberately made a decision not to correct it, heads should roll.  This is an out and out fraud on the decision makers.  The issue isn't keeping multiple sets of numbers, it's about timely giving people the right set for the right reason.  Your defense of this behavior I just don't understand.

It's really laughable that now JTA wants to split hairs about "misrepresentation" in the Times Union.  Let he without sin cast the first stone.

[tufsu1]

It has to do with the misrepresentation that JTA is not going forward with the plan.

see...I didn't ever get that impression from the article...just that JTA agreed to look into the issue more...check my post in that thread.

[tufsu1]

dude...any journalist knows that often the title and the article aren't written by the same people

Title: JTA says it will put the brakes on bus shelters with ads
Subtitle: Agency will work with opponents to try to find a way to build them without ads

First line of article: Bus shelters with advertisements may not be coming to Jacksonville after all

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, here is the issue.  There was a discussion on the table about how many bus shelters might be needed to service the system.  One piece of relevant info would be how many physical locations are in the system where buses stop.  JTA did not provide this information but rather let fly a different calculation that had no relevancy to the discussion at hand.  For this reason, JTA allowed the decision to proceed based on misinformation.  They did the same thing when computing the annual maintenance costs.  JTA again allowed inappropriate info to be relied upon in arriving at a decision.

If JTA did this in error, with respect to such a simple matter, I would question the competency of anything JTA says, especially on more complex issues, because all of it could be based on bad info.  I certainly would hate to be a test pilot for a plane built by JTA.  Their failure rate is unacceptable.

If the misinformation was known to JTA and they deliberately made a decision not to correct it, heads should roll.  This is an out and out fraud on the decision makers.  The issue isn't keeping multiple sets of numbers, it's about timely giving people the right set for the right reason.  Your defense of this behavior I just don't understand.

It's really laughable that now JTA wants to split hairs about "misrepresentation" in the Times Union.  Let he without sin cast the first stone.

"Right idea, wrong motor coach." Okay, I complained about JTA, is everybody happy? http://www.silvereaglebus.com/model15.htm
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Silver Eagle Model 15.

In defense of JTA, (YES PEOPLE OCK SAID THAT!) I don't think anything misleading, was done. Hell, you and I working on the Skyway could have made the same statements. According to the TU THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, how the stops were counted, and quite possibly, two different JTA guys gave them two different answers. Imagine the headlines, "OCK AND STJR MISLEAD PUBLIC TO THE BUS STOP."  You and I are now in the hot seat publically for something that is not our fault. You told them we needed seating for 8 Skyway stations. Then they called me, and asked how many stations total of all route's and I told them 10... (counting Central Station one time for each route). The TU didn't intentionally screw this up either, and I'm sure if the question came up in front of the Council about exact numbers, all it took was ONE person to have spoken with someone using the alternate method and all of hell breaks loose.

Your question of revenue is the same answer too, Cost to Revenue PER Route mile or Highway Mile. 70 bus routes might use the same mile, of the same highway, and stop 1 time each. Your operating cost per mile on this section is high because you are paying for 70 bus routes on that mile, but they only serve ONE STOP. Dismal financial numbers, so the government allows you to count that stop 70 times, for 70 routes, as each route is calculated on it's own merit. Something like this could stem from someone identifying 9 routes to get new shelters, based on demographics of the ad company. We needn't count every stop on all 9 routes, just the actual total number of stops, that way shared stops won't be multi-counted.

This all probably started with the railroads. Imagine Amtrak asking for funds for 100 miles between Jacksonville and Daytona Beach, damn! Nobody mentioned the fact that there are 160 miles of NEW TRACK to build in this same spot. (not real figures)

I can't wait to see what ending is put to this whole thing, LMAO!

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

I find it interesting that the post questioning why I would not understand the meaning of the T-U article's title is now missing.

[stjr]

Ock, I don't get your point and I don't think you get mine.

You seem fixated on why there are multiple sets of numbers.  I don't care.  I care that JTA allowed a decision to be made knowing that those making said decision were using the wrong numbers.  It's that simple and you have offered no acceptable explanation for that as I see it.

In the end, JTA did wrong and I see no way around that.  They should be held accountable and their credibility, whatever there is of it, is in question for the future.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, I don't get your point and I don't think you get mine.

I care that JTA allowed a decision to be made knowing that those making said decision were using the wrong numbers.

That is my point, THERE ARE NO WRONG numbers, just two ways to count and as a result each will needs be, reach a different CORRECT number.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Guys...........this reminds me of math class............one problem, two methods to solve and two correct answers!There is only one simple way that I see to come up with information that is plain and simple............one bus and it own route, total trip length and number of stops on that one route back to starting point. Add number of passengers using that one route, each counting as one,no matter where on that route but if they do not ride back to the start line count them as 1/2 passenger or as 1/2 transfer to another bus. Seems to me that should be something closer to real life. Passengers are accounted for, bus is accounted for, mileage of bus is accounted for. Wheelchairs and bikes could be counted also to indicated disabled riders and biking passengers which shows rider spectrum.........for federal money and state subsidies.......something has to be done to consolidate, streamline or simplify accounting process!

[stjr]

That is my point, THERE ARE NO WRONG numbers, just two ways to count and as a result each will needs be, reach a different CORRECT number.

Ock, there are WRONG numbers when such numbers are used to misrepresent the basis for a decision.  We needed to know how many stops might need shelters and what it actually cost to maintain the average shelter.  JTA provided numbers that were useless for providing context in this regard.  Thus, the numbers were WRONG and JTA is responsible.

Your endless rehash of the numbers and refusal to admit JTA misled leaders is (1) not reflecting well on your keeping your eye on the ball or (2) shows too much eagerness by you to hitch your wagon to JTA and go down in flames with them.  Admission to Folio to further investigate this by JTA's board should provide you with an adequate clue that JTA's behavior doesn't pass the smell test.

Think of it this way:  You ask for a flat head screwdriver.  JTA gives you a Phillips head knowing you asked for a flat head.  Both are screwdrivers.  But, you got "screwed"  because you had the WRONG screwdriver to complete the task you were attempting.  Getting lectured on all the types of screwdrivers doesn't change the fact that JTA knowingly gave you the wrong one.

Like the example, JTA was requested to give appropriate information and didn't.  JTA flat out misrepresented the facts and no excuse or any post by you can change that FACT.  Lectures on obscure transportation accounting methods aren't relevant to this discussion because that isn't the issue.  I am sure JTA appreciates your valiant efforts but they won't cover for their misdeeds.

I hope the above works for you because I can't make it any clearer.

[zoo]

Ok, I'll admit I just skimmed all this talk of $73M for "more impactful" projects, the various types of transit miles and journalistic mis-representation. Is the JTA reconsidering doing this? To me that is the question (and if it's clarified further by meeting minutes or an actual conversation with Ava Parker, I apologize for asking it again).

IMHO, if JTA is reconsidering, it is very disappointing and makes clear how once again the weak leadership in NEFL is so easily swayed by pressure from GOB political advocacy groups (JaxPride is so proud the entire city will resemble A1A in Ponte Vedra -- a suburban, vanilla series of homogenous, gated communities).

Some advertising is trash, some advertising is art. Cross your fingers and hope we get more of the latter.

JTA, the posturing occurred, as did the vote -- you can do it, now do it.

[CS Foltz]

Both method's of passenger accounting bite the big one! JTA can hem and haw all they want......they have an agenda which does not include the public! We are just supposed to pay for everything and that is the extent of the public involvement!