Streetcar Artifacts Uncovered in Springfield

[fsu813]

well, it's a helluva lot better than it was before. thank goodness for that.

[Ocklawaha]

Okay y'all, no I didn't escape with any of the railroad ties, although a dozen or so might make a cool planter, since I love gardening anyway... What I did get away with was 5 or 6 VERY unusual spikes. These are regulation size, but have a spiral thread something like one-way nails, or sheet rock screws. Those ties seem to have been Heart of Cypress, which means almost no rot, and a bug free life of 100 years or so. It's also something nearly impossible to get today, as all of our timber, even stjrs desired Davis Park site, is second and third growth. We just don't have the giants these ties came out of anymore. Anyway, the spikes are quite cool and are mixed in with other regular spikes, if you can get by the pile, and want a unique piece of JTCO, better bring some big crow bars, and tools, or a saws all, maybe some K-4.

For the record the only spikes I collect are the odd ones, weird shapes, lengths, styles and such, usually painting a small white surface on one side and labeling the details with a fine point marker. Uh, my golden one did NOT get painted! But it is registered with BOA. Came from the completion of the Southern Pacific mainline between Los Angeles and the Bay Area. My most prized ones are from the Florida Railroad, a 2' foot gauge line at Lauraville, the Ocklawaha Valley RR at Fort McCOy, and of course the weird JTCO one. Shame of it is, you KNOW that the JTCO laid a gold spike too~! somewhere... No they didn't leave them in the ground, but I wonder where it or they went? Henry Plant had a big interest in it and so did Mr. ingles who passed away a couple of years ago in Penny Farms.

CHEERS!

OCKLAWAHA

[ac]

love the new divided lane.  now, when leave the house, i can't turn left at 5th and main.  thanks jacksonville.

thanks FDOT.

Thanks, mom, for teaching me how to execute a U-turn.

[Midway ®]

Were it not for Metrojacksonville, another piece of Jacksonville history would pass into oblivion unnoticed.

[stjr]

What I did get away with was 5 or 6 VERY unusual spikes. These are regulation size, but have a spiral thread something like one-way nails, or sheet rock screws. ...Anyway, the spikes are quite cool and are mixed in with other regular spikes, if you can get by the pile, and want a unique piece of JTCO, better bring some big crow bars, and tools, or a saws all, maybe some K-4.

For the record the only spikes I collect are the odd ones, weird shapes, lengths, styles and such, usually painting a small white surface on one side and labeling the details with a fine point marker. Uh, my golden one did NOT get painted! But it is registered with BOA. Came from the completion of the Southern Pacific mainline between Los Angeles and the Bay Area. My most prized ones are from the Florida Railroad, a 2' foot gauge line at Lauraville, the Ocklawaha Valley RR at Fort McCOy, and of course the weird JTCO one. Shame of it is, you KNOW that the JTCO laid a gold spike too~! somewhere... No they didn't leave them in the ground, but I wonder where it or they went? Henry Plant had a big interest in it and so did Mr. ingles who passed away a couple of years ago in Penny Farms.

OK, Ock, I have to ask since you brought it up.  I have some "old" RR spikes salvaged from an very old Jax area RR site.  They are about 6 inches long, heads about 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" across with shafts about 1/2" square.  Metal looks like it was hand wrought as each is a little different in character/size, especially the heads.  (Although, time may have been a factor, it doesn't seem that way to me.)  Two heads are roughly oval in shape but one is 50% to 100% larger than the other.  A third head is 6 sided, but oval in shape, not hexagonal.  Tell me what you can.  I realize they could be original or replacements.  Not expecting it to be of any value, just looking for historical perspective.  Thanks.

[Ocklawaha]

We had these in Florida too! Here is a crossing of the Two Foot gauge Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington RR and the Maine Central at Wiscasset, Maine. The spikes can indeed speak to us with a little CSI type work.

Hey my friend, we need to establish where they were found. The more exact the location the better. For example up on Liberty Street, where it crosses the St. Johns River Terminal RR of the Norfolk Southern System, there is a warehouse on the SE corner of the railroad and Liberty. BUT! Oh and what a BUT! That entire block where the warehouse sits, plus some of the vacant land around it's north side, was once a turntable, and shop complex for the railroad! Almost directly Northeast of that, in the center of the WYE track, in the heavy bushes, is the site of the Springfield Railroad Station, that Glorious Johnson, remembers so well.

No real value to the spikes, at least not more then a few bucks, unless they happen to be gold or silver. The length width and head on them tells us a lot about the type, size and weight of the rail they held in place. My Florida Railroad spike from near Lauraville, is 3" inches long! Rail was 12 - 20 pounds per yard, track gauge 2' feet.  Modern rail is 136 pounds per yard, you need much bigger spikes.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Thanks, Ock, though I am still unsure of what exactly I have.  Is there a web site that types them?

[ralpho37]

If streetcars were to be put in here, realistically, does anyone think they would be used?  Is there enough demand for a streetcar run down the Mainstreet Corridor?  If so, would it be enough for Transit Oriented Developments to follow?

[deathstar]

If streetcars were to be put in here, realistically, does anyone think they would be used?  Is there enough demand for a streetcar run down the Mainstreet Corridor?  If so, would it be enough for Transit Oriented Developments to follow?

Ralph my friend, you have much to learn when posting a response as ballsy as that here. Be prepared to get educated, and I urge you to do some investigation of your own on this informative website. I am but a messenger, so please don't shoot me, but them are fightin' words 'round these parts

[ralpho37]

Haha, yeah now that you mention it I guess that post does have the potential to set some people off.  I'm trying to be realistic, not start an argument or anything...  Well, I came out and said it, so let's hear what yall have to say!  Is it feasible?

[thelakelander]

If streetcars were to be put in here, realistically, does anyone think they would be used?

As long as they go somewhere (like to Shands), they'll get used. The key to mass transit is to efficiently link people from where they live to major destinations and to make sure your stops are at true destinations instead of isolated parking garages and seldom used locations.

Is there enough demand for a streetcar run down the Mainstreet Corridor?

Not Main Street alone, but if it were a part of a line connecting Shands with Springfield, DT, Riverside, the Southbank, San Marco, the stadium, etc. there would be.

If so, would it be enough for Transit Oriented Developments to follow?

It did 100 years ago.  Main Street is a TOD corridor.  Unfortunately, the transit was ripped out in the 30s and its been downhill since for that corridor.  So far, examples from our peer cities with streetcars strongly suggest TOD would follow as a result.  Now if you're talking BRT and PCT, the examples get difficult to find.

[ralpho37]

Thank you lake, those are the kinds of questions that need to be answered when considering transit options.  Streetcars seem like a great option for transit.  They are much cheaper than any other type of rail transit, and they add elegance to any setting.  I hope that one day we can have streetcars running down Main Street again.

[LPBrennan]

There are still traces of the Jacksonville Traction Company's presence in many parts of town, and not just on Main Street. Recent excavations on Riverside Avenue, Oak Street near Five Points, San Juan Avenue near the bridge and elsewhere have uncovered ties that remained when the rails were removed as the streetcar lines were abandoned. The steel had some scrap value but the ties did not, and were merely paved over. In some places the rails were left, as well. When the last lines were abandoned in December 1936, the downtown merchants asked that the rails be left and paved over, as they did not want business hurt by the streets being excavated. So when Main Street downtown was part of a sewer project back in the Seventies, the rails had to be pulled up. The construction of the Skyway uncovered rails on Bay Street. The construction of the I-10/I-95   interchange showed the crossing at Dellwood and Edison was still in place, switches and all, besides the ties. Curb lines were modified where tracks went from double to single: Look at Myra Street between Margaret and Stockton. The curbs move inward about a hundred feet from the intersections. The city paved the street two feet outside the car tracks, and they weren't going to pave more than they had to. Similar modifications are seen on Florida north of First and south of Seventh, Davis Street near Fourth, Palmer near Duval, Fourth between Main and Pearl, and College at Acosta. Oak Street between Margaret and King and Walnut between First and Eighth are wider than other streets in the area because eighty years ago, double-track car lines ran down the middle. Any excavating on those streets will usually uncover the old ties.

[thelakelander]

When the last lines were abandoned in December 1936, the downtown merchants asked that the rails be left and paved over, as they did not want business hurt by the streets being excavated.

Interesting.  Has any major reconstruction work been done of Forsyth Street in the last couple of decades?  If not, the rails could still be under the pavement.

[LPBrennan]

During the rebuilding of the Main Street sewers (sometime in the Seventies, I believe) I watched a backhoe one evening at the intersection with Forsyth Street tearing up the trackwork there. The single track on Forsyth between Laura and Ocean was part of two loops which enabled cars to turn around and head back to the suburbs without having to stop and block traffic while they changed ends. The track was installed around 1908. Where the track crossed Main, there were switches enabling a car eastbound from Laura to continue straight, or turn north or south on Main. Switches on Main Street allowed cars in either direction to turn east on Forsyth. It was a sort of single-track "Grand Union" and I have never seen one like it on any other traction map- which doesn't mean there weren't any. (A Grand Union described two double track lines crossing with switches allowing a turn in any direction.It had eight track switches. The special work at Main and Forsyth required four.)
The backhoe had a job to tear up the rail. The operator hooked onto a rail and the treads spun and smoked on the paving as the rail was bent and broken in chunks. Alas- I did not have a camera in those days so the scene is only in my memory.
Streetcar track is heavily constructed and the rails are often larger than rails on mainline railroads- not because the trolleys were heavy, but because of the pounding of other vehicles- cars, trucks and buses as well as horse-drawn drays- on the street.