Newly Planted Oak Trees in Front of Dyal Upchurch

[fonz]

Has anyone noticed the newly planted like oaks set in about 2' x 2' planters in front of the Dyal Upchurch building?  I am not a landscape architect but I know that live oaks are about the worst choice for a tree to flourish in tight urban environment.  Without room for the roots to grow the trees will decline in a few years and require a tremendous amount of pruning.  The crown of these trees already appears to be encroaching on the building.

You can see examples of live oaks in decline because of poor placement all over Downtown and other parts of the city, most notably San Marco and Southpoint.  There are other species of trees that could flourish and provide shade in urban environments.  How about a high rise oak?

Anyhow, I sent an email to the city with no response.  I hate to see us repeat the mistakes of the past.  I am hoping that I am wrong and these trees are high rise oaks and I just do not have the experience to differentiate.

[stjr]

Another reason for wider sidewalks.  Savannah has oaks that are maturing nicely. Why?  Generally, more space for them to grow.  We can't do as much with narrow walkways.  We need to take out a lane of parking or street traffic and turn it  over to pedestrians and landscaping.  That should help attract pedestrians and discourage autos/help mass transit.

Of course, this would make too much sense so don't expect to see it anytime soon.

Savannah scenes courtesy MJ:







Although, in this pix, Savannah managed to have thriving trees (not sure they are oaks, though) on a narrower sidewalk.   Maybe Jax just doesn't have a green thumb.  Is Savannah's gardener available?

[braeburn]

The 3rd pic is Southern Magnolias. If you look closely, right above the signpost you can see one of the blooms - super fragrant but often way out of reach!

The last pic is a row of Crape Myrtles. While not the best for overhead shade, they certainly look nice 

[fonz]

Savannah has done it right.  Planted or kept trees that need lots of room to grow in wide medians or parks and planted trees that don't require much space along their sidewalks.

[fsujax]

Live oaks, magnolias and other large trees do not belong downtown in a 2x2 planter......stupid! Bring on the Washingtonian palms....see the existing Bay St streetscape.

[tufsu1]

I hate palm trees!

[Captain Zissou]

FSUjax, I hope that was a joke.  I would rather see bamboo all over downtown than palms.

[904Scars]

HAHA I must agree, I'm pretty sure Duval county has used enough palms on every other major roadway in Jacksonville, we don't need anymore Downtown.

[reednavy]

Part of the reason for use of palms is the fact that unlike shade tree, palms don't have roots that dig up sidewalks and roadways. They're also easier to manage than shade trees as most have few disease problems, they're less messy when the fruiting parts that appear each year are cut back, and they also don't hide buildings as much as shade trees do.

I'm not a fan of the use of Live Oaks right up against a building. Theses will eventually become too large and tear up the sidewalks, create a lot of leaf debris in the spring, and allow moisture to stay longer and the green stuff can grow on the building. You want to see a bad usage of Live Oaks, look across to the Modis Tower, enough said.

The removal of te trees from the BOA Tower last year didn't settle with me at first. However, I like the use of minimal holly trees, allowing for a full view of the tower from street level and looks excellent.

[904Scars]

you make some very good points... i still think there is a better alternative to palms. then again the right night lighting can make just about anything look better.

[thelakelander]

Considering our climate, if palms can't provide decent shade, they're a negative if the goal is to create an urban environment where people will walk on the sidewalks.  So we have to decide if we want a downtown that looks good driving by in an air-conditioned car or one that provides for pedestrian comfort and usability.

[Keith-N-Jax]

I love Palm trees. Use them where people dont  need to walk since people need to be in the shade so. Palm trees are also cleaner than most trees because theres no leaves dropping everywhere.

[reednavy]

A fact of the matter is, shade trees do not belong directly adjacent to building in the downtown core. Now, if there was a median in the middle of Bay Street, then that would be a good spot, not on sidewalks. That's part of the reason the owners of the BOA Tower removed them, they were tearing up the sidewalks, were messy with leaves and dead limbs, allowed for birds to nest and produced a mess with droppings, and hid the the rest of the tower from view on the sidewalk. Before anyone says, well, what about those in Avondale. Well, those are shorter buildings and have been trimmed to clear the buildings' roof lines. That just can't work downtown, for the msot part.

In these locations, small trees and palm trees work well. For those that don't like palm trees, well, you're SOL, this is Florida. They want more variet of palms that can tolerate our climate and like them as well. In place of this live oaks, they could've used the state tree, Sabal Palmetto, as they grow relatively straight up, easy to keep maintained, and are nice for smaller spaces.

We'll see how these trees do, but am not expecting a miracle.

[thelakelander]

I don't understand how something as simple as providing a little shade for your pedestrians along a public sidewalk becomes so difficult.  Maybe we should call up some these cities to find out how they deal with this issue without roots destroying their sidewalks?

Baltimore




Indianapolis


San Diego


Charleston, WV


Orlando


St. Petersburg




Gainesville


Providence


Hoboken


Fernandina Beach


Winter Park


Lakeland




What are these cities doing to provide shade for their pedestrians that Jax can't?

[reednavy]

Part of the reason is that certain trees are known for having what I call "surface runners". These are roots that develop, over time, along the surface, or close to, and begin to pry up asphalt or concrete, or kills grass as the go. Now, the live oaks pictured are at the point where they're not a big issue, when they get older though, the problem becomes a bigger issue.

My main issue is that this variety of tree doesn't belong against a building. Live oaks are a crown spreading tree and their full beauty and size are attained when not confined. Another matter is that these holes that they're planted in are not large enough to allow for full trunk size to be attained. This is not good at all for the overall health of the tree, and will likely have to replaced after it either dies, or gets infected with a disease because of non-optimal growing conditions. This in turn will cost more to provide maintenence and eventual replacement.

All I'm trying to say is that there are other types of trees that can grow better in these kind of conditions, and even hybrids that can provide shade and also thrive. Live oaks are not good choices for a downtown environment as they're not likely to attain the normal characteristics associated with this tree. I just hope some see what I'm trying to get at. Businesses and property owners also want better visibility, and having a large shade tree is likely to diminish that somewhat. Look what they did in Avondale, a serious, horrible trim job to the live oak trees there.