Do you wish Jacksonville had Commuter Rail?

[CS Foltz]

I agree.....more bus's are not the answer...better route planning might help, but rail would be a better choice for innercity travel. BRT just increases the asphalt area required and does nothing to alleviate congestion if the BRT is not filled to capacity!

[charlestondxman]

I really wish Jacksonville had commuter rail. It would be a money maker. Imagine a St. Augustine-Jacksonville commuter rail train. Vacationers could fly into the Jax airport, take the train to downtown, and then get on the skyway or commuter rail and get anywhere in town.

I'm in favor of it, as listening to WOKV every afternoon from Charleston, I can hear how bad traffic is in the morning and afternoon in Jacksonville. It is just as bad in Charleston every morning, with Interstate 26 being the big backup. They are planning a commuter rail to stop this backup, from Summerville to Charleston.

[aaapolito]

As a person who grew up with commuter rail in NJ/NY, I would love the option here in Jax.  I currently live off JTB and work downtown.  Even if the train ride took me 5-10 minutes more than driving without traffic, I would use rail.  However, everyone knows that traffic on JTB and 95 is inevitable, making a 30 minute train ride likely to be a shorter and less stressful ride than sitting in traffic.

[thelakelander]

I'd take it as well.  I commute from the Avenues to a downtown office building adjacent to the skyway daily. 

Traffic really sucks heading southbound on I-95 and Philips around 5pm.  I find myself staying at work later each day to let traffic die down.  It also backs up between Baymeadows and University northbound each morning.  Its only going to get worse once the Overland Bridge and JTB interchange projects kick into high gear.

Personally, a train would cut down the amount of money I spend in gas, insurance and auto maintenance.  I could also use that travel time to relax, read a book, paper or surf the web instead of being stuck behind the wheel.  Locally, its the more cost effective option to deal with current and future congestion.  It also gives Jacksonville the opportunity to revitalize the Philips corridor as a walkable transit oriented district instead of the blighted gateway into downtown it is today.  Extra money gained from higher property values along that stretch (and others like it) is the type of thing that will help the city with its annual budget issues.

When everything is laid out on the table, I see no reason to not do it ASAP.

[Ocklawaha]

I really wish Jacksonville had commuter rail. It would be a money maker. Imagine a St. Augustine-Jacksonville commuter rail train. Vacationers could fly into the Jax airport, take the train to downtown, and then get on the skyway or commuter rail and get anywhere in town.

I'm in favor of it, as listening to WOKV every afternoon from Charleston, I can hear how bad traffic is in the morning and afternoon in Jacksonville. It is just as bad in Charleston every morning, with Interstate 26 being the big backup. They are planning a commuter rail to stop this backup, from Summerville to Charleston.

Friend Charlestondxman, I gotta call you out on this one. Commuter Rail in Jacksonville, will become very popular as more people are introduced to it and as other transit links up. Rail in Jacksonville, will NOT BE A MONEY MAKER, not here, not ever. Not in New York, Not in Chicago, Not in Moscow, Not in London... Won't happen because the cost of equipment, labor, maintenance, track agreements, stations, etc... will continue to be in the Millions of dollars. Just do the quick math, even if we put 200 persons on each train - just on the St. Augustine line, what are they going to be willing to pay for a 5 day a week round trip? $5.00? (that's the cost in Dallas for the LRT-CR-Streetcar pass per day). How long will that train have to do this in order to bring in 1 Million dollars? Now take out for fuel, and all of the above costs and you'll quickly dig a hole in the ground.

The bright side of all of this that except for ZEPPELINS, there is no cheaper way to move large masses of people, so even with the costs figured in, it's still a great deal.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, is it possible that rail and other mass transit are not profitable because their fares don't fully value their services due to competing with even more subsidized transit such as roads?

Imagine if the ONLY way to travel was to walk, bike, or take mass transit.  Mass transit could very likely demand a profit generating fare for distances beyond walking or biking.  But, add that one can drive a car for the same or less cost than mass transit due to the provision of totally free roads and the mass transit fares are now forced into a money losing fire sale.  This same model is mostly what keeps the airlines from remaining consistently profitable.  Without business fare premiums for the speed of flying it is unlikely air travel could economically survive either.  Witness the present where few business fares are being paid.

It's obvious to me that if the auto/road complex didn't exist, mass transit could very likely be instantly profitable.

[stjr]

500 dollars a month car payment, 150 a month insurance
200 a month in fuel.

I don't see that the cars are less expensive that mass transit, even with the trillions we have to spend in subsidies.

Stephen, I am not convinced.

What would be cheaper, if you only had one choice: To lay a rail and fuel, insure, and maintain a modern train while transporting millions of people over it or to buy land, clear it, and build an interstate and then buy millions of cars and fuel, insure, and maintain them?  I think the answer is obvious.  And, the proof exists in much of the world where, when only one system can be supported affordably, it's mass transit.

[stjr]

I think we are agreein stjr.

Rail is much less expensive than cars and roads.

On a re-read, I see your point.  My apologies. 

[CS Foltz]

Rail is the grail!

[tufsu1]

500 dollars a month car payment, 150 a month insurance
200 a month in fuel.

I don't see that the cars are less expensive that mass transit, even with the trillions we have to spend in subsidies.

The problem with that math is that most people will still want their cars....what we need to do is show that the overall costs for transit are less than roads (keeping cars out of the equation) and that there are other savings/benefits generated.

[Bewler]

500 dollars a month car payment, 150 a month insurance
200 a month in fuel.

Don’t forget repair and maintenance costs.

[Ocklawaha]

Hey y'all, try the calculator for your commuter costs:

http://www.apta.com/services/transit_calculator/.cfm

stjr, certainly if walking or bicycles were the only alternatives, we would see rail passenger services as profitable, at least in most areas.



Rail comes with certain attractors and economy's that (again) nothing but a Zeppelin could come close to matching. We constantly hear from some out in cyberland that make wild and thoughtless statements such as:

"Well when the train can take me to Miami in two hours, only then will I ride rather then drive." This kind of talk does nothing to improve our transit options, and shows COMPLETE IGNORANCE of the subject. If the FEC train will be reaching 90 MPH, and having ridden over that track, I don't see why it wouldn't work. When speeds are averaged, then the train will be AS FAST or FASTER then I-95, but not by much. We get the glorious fly boys of the 21St century with their equally thoughtless statements about non-stop "flyer trains."  Again this demonstrates a complete ignorance of the subject matter.



One of the best performing passenger trains in the entire nation is Amtrak's EMPIRE BUILDER. Named for James Hill, who constructed the GREAT NORTHERN RAILROAD, between (Chicago) The twin Cities and Seattle/Portland.
The train does a "Jacksonville" in Spokane, where it splits in two sections. One operates to Seattle while the other heads south to the Columbia River and rolls west into Portland. The EMPIRE BUILDER, is a high level (double decked) premo service. The reason it covers it's expenses and even makes a dime every now and then are for the exact reasons you describe stjr. Running just South of the Canadian border this deluxe train doesn't serve enough people between Minneapolis and Spokane, to fill a average Jacksonville grade school. Yet the train does the trick because much of the journey are to isolated small towns. These towns have horrible weather, which seldom stops a train, and they have little or no airline, or even freeway services. So this daily trek is their access to the outside world. Few on the passenger list are going to travel all the way from Chicago to Seattle/Portland, yet thousands of them use the train to reach the big cities both East and West of: North Dakota, Montana, Minnesota and Idaho.



We must retrain our thoughts, not to some vague Jacksonville to Miami speedway, but the quick and convenient way to to from St. Augustine, to Daytona; from Daytona to Titusville, etc... One long distance train serving 10+ mini-corridors.

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

If there was a train that could get me from downtown Jax to Miami in about the same time it would take me to drive it on I-95 or any segment in between, I would never drive my car over that route again.  Add on a baggage car that would take my bicycle or motor scooter to make it perfect!

Ock,  What are the speed limiting factors on current Amtrack trains.  I assume that the locomotives are capable of higher speeds than  97MPH.  Is it something about the roadbed or curves?  Signaling?

How could the travel times be reduced to be better than Interstate car travel without a whole new system?

[tufsu1]

Amtrak is limited to no more than 79mph on every route except the Northeast corridor

[Ocklawaha]

Amtrak is limited to no more than 79mph on every route except the Northeast corridor

TUFSU1, Hello friend, on this one you are both right and wrong, there IS an FRA mandate that sets the general top speed at 79 MPH for conventional passenger trains. It is generally believed that improving track above VI and the new Positive Train Control (PTC) will allow much faster ceilings. Florida East Coast really has that covered because they have PTC with in-cab signaling, AND some of the best and fastest track in the America's. (Funny, though, being freight only since 1968, I'm not sure they ever break 65-70 on it).

There are MANY exceptions to the FRA rule, and in many places Amtrak and Freight blow right through the 79MPH top speed. Here is a collection of some I know of, feel free (tufsu1, JTA, Clem, Boyle, Fdot) to copy this note for your own research.

Trains 3-4 are still allowed 90 mph in areas of eastern California, Arizona, and New Mexico. Pacific Surfliners and commuter trains are allowed 90 from east Santa Ana to Sorrento Valley, which is between Del Mar and San Diego.
Trains 3 and 4 can also go 90 mi/h across much of Missouri.


110MPH in Michigan and upstate New York is correct. The New York stretch actually runs as far west as Hoffmans, NY, west of Schenectady. Amtrak owns the line between Kalamazoo and Porter, IN. In New York on the Empire Corridor, Amtrak gets up to 90 mph between Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie. Between Poughkeepsie and Hudson, I think they hit 95 or 100 mph. Hudson to Albany is 110 mph, as well as Albany - Schenectady. Then, I think it's 100 mph between Schenectady and Amsterdam. 

The Wolverine from CUS to Jackson, some unscientific milepost timings that indicated we were running at 80-90mph between Porter and Kalamazoo. The ride in the Horizon car is smooth and it looks like Amtrak is pretty good about maintaining this RoW. The ride on the NS track east of Kalamazoo isn't too bad either at 70-80mph, for that matter. Last I heard, the Porter - Kalamazoo stretch was 95 mph, even though track is maintained for 110 mph. They were supposed to increase the operating speed to 110 soon, though.

The westbound CZ (California Zephyr) in Northern Nevada doing between 91mph and 97mph.
But 5 and 6 through NEvada goin' that fast, I believe to be a rules violation! Otherwise it too excepted.

Some track in Illinois between Chicago and Springfield was upgraded to 110 mph standards, but aside from a few test trains, nothing has come of that so far. Operating speed remains 79 mph.

Amtrak's Keystone trains hit 110 mph between Philadelphia and Harrisburg on the newly upgraded Keystone corridor.


The "new technology" systems such as PTC are subject to the review and approval of the FRA. Any increase in speed has to be compliant with a number of federal regulations.

49 CFR 213.9 and 213.307

Sec. 213.9 Classes of track: operating speed limits.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and
Secs. 213.57(b), 213.59(a), 213.113(a), and 213.137(b) and (c), the
following maximum allowable operating speeds apply--
[In miles per hour]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The maximum The maximum
Over track that meets all of the allowable allowable
requirements prescribed in this operating speed operating speed
part for-- for freight for passenger
trains is-- trains is--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excepted track.................... 10 N/A
Class 1 track..................... 10 15
Class 2 track..................... 25 30
Class 3 track..................... 40 60
Class 4 track..................... 60 80
Class 5 track..................... 80 90
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sec. 213.307 Class of track: operating speed limits.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and
Secs. 213.329, 213.337(a) and 213.345(c), the following maximum
allowable operating speeds apply:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over track that meets all of the The maximum allowable
requirements prescribed in this subpart operating speed for trains
for-- is--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class 6 track............................ 110 m.p.h.
Class 7 track............................ 125 m.p.h.
Class 8 track............................ 160 m.p.h.
Class 9 track............................ 200 m.p.h.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not that many years ago, the Illinois Central Main (now CN) had 90-100 speeds south of Kankakee to Carbondale and 90MPH max all the way to NOL. The ACL main (now CSX) south of Petersburg, VA all the way to Jacksonville was also a 90-100MPH railroad just a few decades ago.

Last time I was in Southern California, I FLEW ---- AMTRAK! The San Diegan's also rip along at 90+

Hope this clears up any misunderstanding, frankly with the FEC, it's track and signals, add some fencing, stations, and overpasses and OMG... DAMN! "Super Railroad."

OCKLAWAHA