Bus Shelter Advertising Debate headed to City Council

[CS Foltz]

JeffreyS.........therein lies one potential problem...........what Church group is going to green light a bus slathered in "Hooters" adds? I don't care one way or the other...............but someone will take offense and thats when we start having the "ADD" Police or someone somewhere dictating which adds are acceptable or not!

[Ocklawaha]

Freebies for JTA, ugly ads, ad police, lights or no lights, sign rules, deceit, back room deals, good ol' boy's, etc...

IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT!  It is about that student nurse, standing in a pouring rain at Emerson and Philips Highway at 8:00 pm in a pair of ruined shoes, water pouring off of her notebook. It's about 3 elderly couples who have to stand in the blazing sun at Atlantic and Monument, in order to get out towards San Pablo, the Publix and CVS. It's about the Sailor on a port visit from Argentina that wants to see the city but doesn't speak a word of English, though he has a pocket full of money, the bus stop offers no clue on when to expect a ride, what ride to catch, or a place to sit down. The business man in Orange Park has sampled and enjoys the morning and evening express buses, until that windy day when it was 18 degrees outside.

It's about SERVICE, every customer, everywhere, every time, if a deal can be made for bus shelters with or without perks, I say let's get after it!

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock...........as you say "It is about Service"! JTA has access to a $60 Million Dollars line of credit to build a Transportation Center for what? Boils down to gold plated new offices and I say if they can do that.............we should not have put adds on bus shelters in order to build them! To me that is just as plain as "JTA loves concrete" and JTA needs to come off of their stash of money and build some! Y'all seem to have forgotten about the unused money that was found in an unused account, JTA has not mentioned anything further about it, what happened to those dollars?

[Ocklawaha]

My only thoughts are:

1. Why punish the passenger because we want JTA to fund this out of their pocket.

2. There have to be at least 1,000 other needs that the JTA "jackpot" can be spent on, especially if the shelters can be made to pay for themselves.

In the old NATTU, NARTTU and MAINSIDE Navy schools here in Jacksonville, the lounges, libraries (3 of them), barber shops and beauty shops all had generous magazine racks from which to choose reading material while you waited.  Everyone wanted the Navy to pay for all of the materials, but the budget for such "pretty's" was laughable.  The Exchange Officer, came up with a stroke of genius, all of the magazines went into their very own hard plastic "magazine covers," each cover had a hidden slip pocket, where 8.5 x 11 size paper stock could be inserted.   These covers were very substantial and in some circles they have survived to this day...  BUT, What made them so special is they all carried local advertising within those nice plastic covers.  So many ad's were sold, that the selection was expanded again and again, and the USN never spent a nickle more on magazines.

Get some commercial business to pay for our shelters and let's use the money in the JTA accounts for meaningful improvements such as "Google Bus", "Next Bus," "News Ticker", "Real Time Arrivals-Departures Information Boards..." etc.

PS: Mike Blaylock is a man after my own heart, he doesn't like the "Bus Wrap" ad's and has opened discussion on banning them.  I think transit vehicles of a uniform general appearance draw more passengers then rolling bill boards.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, again, the total costs of bus shelters by any measure is peanuts to JTA.  Why is it that this is the issue JTA suddenly becomes so "cost conscious" over?  Check out their executive compensation, employee pension and other benefits, wasted $$ on the $ky-high-way, or other inefficiencies that you would be certain to find in a governmental bureaucracy such as JTA.  Or, let JTA look for other revenue sources such as grants, community sponsors (a company or shopping center sponsoring a shelter near or on their property), etc.

There is a pattern of un-imaginative thinking among our engineering friends at JTA and FDOT.  We see it here, in their road and bridge structures, the proposed transportation center, transit solutions, etc.  Other people need to get involved in these projects who bring different thinking, approaches, and creativity.  How about some marketing types who work from what the customer NEEDS and WANTS, not what the engineers think is the answer for them?  Maybe, then, we would get transit models that people actually use in numbers because they are truly satisfied with the service being offered.

[CS Foltz]

stjr.......I agree! In the overall context, shelter cost and the so-called maintenance, is peanuts compared to their overall Budget! There is no reason to not build them other than get more bus's that have a dozen riders on them......plus their new! Executive Compensation, employee benefits, $kyway costs and awhole host of inefficiences add up to Bull Excrement! If they wanted to, they could! Advertising revenue only accounts for 3% of the income and until they get their house in order, they don't deserve more!

[tufsu1]

Ock...........as you say "It is about Service"! JTA has access to a $60 Million Dollars line of credit

NO THEY DON'T!

[CS Foltz]

tufsu..........then you mean that they will be using "Taxpayer" monies? If that is so, then they had better get some taxpayer input, because I for one am against the where and the proposal in general. There are other Bldg's that could be renovated for what is proposed at a far less cost to whomever is paying for it. The Federal Bldg comes to mind as to a Bldg and its location.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, again, the total costs of bus shelters by any measure is peanuts to JTA.

Honestly? In ANY public transportation agency, nothing that represents a capital cost is "peanuts." While it's true some agency MIGHT get $60 Million to do this or that, the amount of documentation, needs assessment's, environmental and engineering is never so flipant as to be peanuts. The matching funds in almost any improvement project involve a great deal of human mental capital as well. These grants are often a one shot in a lifetime (for a engineer - executive - planner) to plan, buy, install and use the new XXX.

Why is it that this is the issue JTA suddenly becomes so "cost conscious" over?  Check out their executive compensation, employee pension and other benefits, wasted $$ on the $ky-high-way, or other inefficiencies that you would be certain to find in a governmental bureaucracy such as JTA.  Or, let JTA look for other revenue sources such as grants, community sponsors (a company or shopping center sponsoring a shelter near or on their property), etc.

Cost Conscious is good, it's what we have wanted them to be for a long time. Cutting costs and improving services is a candle burning at two ends, Amtrak was assigned a similar order in 1971, which set the company in a 35 year rut.  Compensation and benefits are not "all that" at JTA either, if you want excellent transit, just follow the money. Jacksonville Transportation Authority uses passenger miles as a performance measure for its transit system and the ratio of passenger miles to seat miles available as a productivity measure for individual routes.  This system is superior to that used by the majority of Transit Systems operating in the western hemisphere, in short, JTA is a leader. * (See Note: One)

Yet in pay and benefits, from the bottom to the top, JTA is just another typical "East Mobile" industry, and falls far short of national system models.  I haven't shared this publicly, but this is a good time to do so, Mr. Blaylock and I talked job and money while driving around reviewing my streetcar and commuter rail plans. When he asked what I was making in Colombia, I thought my poor friend was going to choke to death!  "It was obvious Toto, we ARE back in Kansas again!" Although a dog of a system in Kansas probably pays better.  Before I get shot full of holes for being a snob, let's just say I decided to perform these tasks pro bono, and if I ever get into a REAL project, I'll bid in as an independent planner paid by the job.

"Let JTA look for other revenue sources such as grants, community sponsors (a company or shopping center sponsoring a shelter near or on their property), etc."

Man shine the light on JTA, that is exactly what they have done with the bus shelters and it's reaping a whirlwind.

There is a pattern of unimaginative thinking among our engineering friends at JTA and FDOT.  We see it here, in their road and bridge structures, the proposed transportation center, transit solutions, etc.  

While I'm the first to agree that the Jacksonville Terminal plans SUCK, and the buildings all look like a hokey movie set that could be labeled "Baby Milk Factory." The question is, why should the passengers have to suffer because they build ugly buildings? Bridges too low for ships or trains? or any other reason?

Other people need to get involved in these projects who bring different thinking, approaches, and creativity. How about some marketing types who work from what the customer NEEDS and WANTS, not what the engineers think is the answer for them?  Maybe, then, we would get transit models that people actually use in numbers because they are truly satisfied with the service being offered.

Both JTA and TPO have made some serious attempts at getting the public to join in, or speak up, even to offering free fried chicken dinners.  Sadly most of the chicken went uneaten, and most of the seats remained empty in these community meetings. We even posted several of these meetings on MJ and JTA announced them on TV and the TU, yet attendance still remained low.  I suspect that will continue until JTA really becomes, "Part of your day. Part of your community. Part of your life."


* (Note: One) First, data on passenger miles can better reflect transit usage.  As a real example, transit boardings in St Louis increased by 15.0 percent from 1990 to 1995 during which the light rail system started operation, while passenger miles increased by only 3.4 percent during the same period.  As a hypothetical example, consider the relative values of passenger miles per vehicle mile versus boarding per vehicle mile under two scenarios: 1) 20 persons rode a bus for 10 miles; and 2) 20 persons rode the bus for only a block.  The usage by these 20 persons is reflected as 20 passenger miles per vehicle mile under scenario 1 and about 0.5 under scenario 2.  In contrast, their usage is reflected as 2 boardings per vehicle mile under both scenarios.  Second, passenger miles data may be used to measure transit vehicle occupancy or load factor.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Wether it is "Passanger Mile" or "Transit Mile" either way, JTA is probably no where near capacity and judging by what I have seen.........probably in the low single didgets? In fact,come to think of it, I have never seen anything from JTA that says just what their load is! Got some figures to think about Ock? I mean if the maintenance figures are at $850 yearly per shelter, JTA is only at .5 per passenger mile, those numbers just are pitifull and should be grounds to change management over!

[tufsu1]

tufsu..........then you mean that they will be using "Taxpayer" monies? If that is so, then they had better get some taxpayer input, because I for one am against the where and the proposal in general. There are other Bldg's that could be renovated for what is proposed at a far less cost to whomever is paying for it. The Federal Bldg comes to mind as to a Bldg and its location.

There have been public meetings on the center in the past and there will continue to be...as a taxpayer, you get to vote on these things when you vote in local, state, and Federal elections...its called representative democracy (or a Democratic Repuiblic).

btw, why is it that you change your argument every time someone dispels your previous one?

[CS Foltz]

tufsu I have done no such thing! I am still not comfortable with spending $60 Million Dollars of my hard earned tax money and don't care for the proposed location and if that Bldg design is the best we can do, we need to give someone some new crayons! There are other options to pursue and I don't see that happening! JTA appears to have the Court House mentality...........gotta have new! Bull Excrement! More Urban Sprawl, New Ediface and what comes out of it...........a new Bldg for JTA? Lots of parking there, yup.....ideal location, just like the Prime is ideally situated for a CONVENTION CENTER......right? Ohhhhhhh but the $kyway will get a new concourse..........whopee! $7 Million Dollars a year to run that silly thing and no matter how you account for riders..........whether its "Passanger Mile or Transit Mile" there ain't enough riders to substanciate keeping  it alive! Wheeeeee..........COJ has a monorail (kinda) are we not progressive! Yeah...........rail system to nowhere and it won't be extended............poop on Corriene, pull its plug!If we can give Vescor $34.3 Million Dollars for nothing............we can take up a collection and kill the $kyway!

[tufsu1]

Might as well kill downtown while you're at it then!

[CS Foltz]

tufsu............Prime needs to go back to being "Transportation" oriented............new Convention Center needs to be built at the Ship Yards, Federal Bldg needs to become the new "Transportation Center"......that makes perfect sense to me and alot cheaper than what is planned! Gotta better idea then lemme hear it! I can not see adding to the urban sprawl and I am a believer in recycling bldgs which are cheaper than building from scratch! Besides with BRT working Skyway won't be needed right? I mean JTA has touted BRT as the panacea to cure all of the downtown ills did they not?

[tufsu1]

Whil the general concept is good, recycling old buildings is often NOT cheaper than building new....so what if your ideas cost more than you think they should...would you still support them?