John Mica Delays Action to Save the Red Snapper Population off Florida Coasts

[FayeforCure]

Sorry, Faye. your credibility on this issue has been lost.  read the first article by BT.  The BOD for LCV says it all.  LCV is not an objective source.

Well if a Republican like Susan Collins can receive a perfect 100% score with LCV when "she consistently supported conservation and clean energy," it shows that "Mica consistently opposes conservation and clean energy," giving him that 0% score.

It's an equal opportunity scoring system. Mica failed and Susan Collins excelled. Plain and simple...........that's what scoring systems do.

[Bewler]

Isn’t this a common problem that occurs with lots of different breeds of fish each year and that’s easily solved by putting a ban on what sizes you’re allowed to keep until the population goes back up again?

Like when the red drum population gets low in the St. Johns, or it's breeding season and you can only keep anything between 18 â€" 23 inches. And if you get caught breaking this rule you get a massive fine as well as risk losing your fishing license.

[BridgeTroll]

Yes of course... PROPER conservation techniques have been used to enhance populations in many different species both on land and in water.  A total ban on snapper fishing is probably not needed at all but restrictions and limits on size and takes are reasonable.

[FayeforCure]

Isn’t this a common problem that occurs with lots of different breeds of fish each year and that’s easily solved by putting a ban on what sizes you’re allowed to keep until the population goes back up again?

Like when the red drum population gets low in the St. Johns, or it's breeding season and you can only keep anything between 18 â€" 23 inches. And if you get caught breaking this rule you get a massive fine as well as risk losing your fishing license.

Bewler, yes. Such provisions are already enacted:

Magnuson-Stevens Reauthorization Act of 2006

The Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act (MSA) is the primary law governing marine fisheries management in United States federal waters. The Act was first enacted in 1976 and amended in 1996. Most notably, the Magnuson-Stevens Act aided in the development of the domestic fishing industry by phasing out foreign fishing. To manage the fisheries and promote conservation, the Act created eight regional fishery management councils. The 1996 amendments focused rebuilding overfished fisheries, protecting essential fish habitat, and reducing bycatch.

President George W. Bush, through his Ocean Action Plan, made reauthorizing the Magnuson-Stevens Act a top priority. The President called for a hard deadline to end overfishing, increased use of market-based management tools, creation of a national saltwater angler registry, and an emphasis on ecosystem approaches to management.

Learn more about the 2006 amendments to the Magnuson-Stevens Act by clicking on the links below.

For more information about fisheries management, visit NMFS' Office of Sustainable Fisheries.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/msa2005/

However, Mica's H.R. 3307, would interfere with current fisheries law, the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act. Mica’s bill would prohibit limitations under Magnuson-Stevens.

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/07/25/red-snapper-medics-studying-the-crash/

The following chart for example, is based on a long-term series of surveys and data assessments by the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration. It shows the scientific estimate of the the biomass of red snapper in the South Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico.



Representative John Mica responds to this kind of scientific data with second-hand anecdotal information. “The fishermen I’ve talked with, both sport and commercial, say… there are strong runs of snapper and grouper,” he says. Of course, the fishermen John Mica has talked to are members of a political group that is seeking to block fishing regulations designed to protect the red snapper. They have a bias, the kind of bias that large-scale, long-term scientific observations are designed to avoid.

[FayeforCure]

Yes of course... PROPER conservation techniques have been used to enhance populations in many different species both on land and in water.  A total ban on snapper fishing is probably not needed at all but restrictions and limits on size and takes are reasonable.

BT, I'm glad you feel that way. You can add your name to a letter to the South Atlantic Fishery Management Council to ensure that PROPER conservation techniques will be used:

End Overfishing -- A Chance to Save 10 Species
Target: Chairman Duane Harris, South Atlantic Fishery Management Council
Sponsored by: Pew Environment Group

Did you know U.S. South Atlantic waters have more dwindling fish populations than any other region in the nation?

Ten species are in critical need of protection -- from black, red and gag grouper that make up the popular fish sandwich to the Warsaw grouper, a gentle giant that can grow nearly eight feet long and weigh up to 440 pounds. Additionally, red snapper populations have plummeted to just 3 percent of 1945 levels, and although they can live up to 54 years, few are older than 10.

Regional fishery managers are currently working on important changes to fishing rules that would strengthen limits on the numbers of fish caught annually, prohibit fishing in some areas of the ocean where imperiled fish live and limit certain kinds of fishing so populations have time to replenish themselves.

You can help save these fish! Please add you name to a letter to the chairman of the South Atlantic Fishery Management Council, asking for approval of the new rules to help end overfishing and preserve our ocean ecosystem for future generations.

http://www.care2.com/go/z/19800885

It's citizens taking action, that impact the health of our communities most.

[Overstreet]

............Like when the red drum population gets low in the St. Johns, or it's breeding season and you can only keep anything between 18 â€" 23 inches. And if you get caught breaking this rule you get a massive fine as well as risk losing your fishing license.

Red drum or redfish slot limits are 18 to 27 inches with pinched tail. Bag limit is one per fisherman per day.

Redfish were pushed to near extinction in the 80s by the gill netters and others. The banning of gill netting and commercial harvest along with limits on the recreational fishermen saved the redfish species in Florida. Unlike the red snapper the red fish scarcity was observed by all parties.

[Overstreet]

Yes of course... PROPER conservation techniques have been used to enhance populations in many different species both on land and in water.  A total ban on snapper fishing is probably not needed at all but restrictions and limits on size and takes are reasonable.

Agreed.

The amazing thing is that they limit red snapper in the gulf possession to two per fisherman per day. But in the Atlantic they propose to ban it entirely for long periods rather than reduce bag limits like the gulf fishery.

Also there isn't agreement between biologists as the the validity of the studies. 

[FayeforCure]

Also there isn't agreement between biologists as the the validity of the studies. 

Can you source this statement? The Red Snapper population is down to 3% of 1945 levels. Are there SCIENTIFIC studies that say otherwise?

I'm not talking hearsay from fishermen.

[Ocklawaha]

Well I have to say, going back to bridge trolls original post extolling mica as an environmentalist:

How can you be pro rail and a rails to trails guy at the same time?
one needs rails, and the other converts rails to public parks.

The other thing that is troubling to me about the rails to trails program is the pure poison that lines some of the rails.  Does it make sense to mix children and families with toxic throughways and chemical exposure?

Ock.  You know about this more than I do, but I was under the impression that the rails are better left as rails?

Actually Stephen, the Rails to Trails programs, have preserved thousands of miles of right-of-way that would have been forever lost to farm fields or urban growth. Seldom if ever do these folks do any damage to our transportation future, they know up front from State and local agreements that they can play as long as they PRESERVE. In various places a new mine or industry opens up along the old rail bed, and the tracks have gone right back down.

At Worst, it's NOT A CONFRONTATIONAL SITUATION. Certainly there are a few places where the trail has become so beloved by the public, the conversion back, has raised some outcry, but breech of agreement would be much worse for the conservancy then stopping a few miles of track.

The other method to save a rail line, is outright state purchase, and/or "rail banking", either by the state or railroad companies. In this case the track stays in place, usually both parties are looking for a shortline or other operator to take over the business. State ownership removes the realestate from the tax rolls, but the tax rolls are what causes abandonment of little used lines in the first place. They were also the main driver of causing the railroads to divest so many thousands of miles in the 60's - 80's, all across the nation. Had a state/or OUR state been creative back in those days, I'm sure we would still have a mainline through Gainesville - Ocala - Leesburg, Wildwood - Auburndale, or down the west coast from Thomasville, GA to Tampa.

Hope this is what you were looking for... YES, you can and should support both RAILS and RAIL TRAILS.

OCKLAWAHA

[Overstreet]

.....Also there isn't agreement between biologists as the the validity of the studies.......

Can you source this statement? The Red Snapper population is down to 3% of 1945 levels. Are there SCIENTIFIC studies that say otherwise?...........

How about a bunch of PHDs?
http://www.pba.edu/media/news-releases/red-snapper.cfm
http://www.pba.edu/media/news-releases/red-snapper.cfm

http://www.floridasportsman.com/casts/090626/index.html
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20091022/COLUMNISTS0205/91021041/Don-t-close-the-fishery

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Shipp_Bob_12954493.aspx
www.reef-man.com/ShippBortoneMSfinal.doc

[FayeforCure]

.....Also there isn't agreement between biologists as the the validity of the studies.......

Can you source this statement? The Red Snapper population is down to 3% of 1945 levels. Are there SCIENTIFIC studies that say otherwise?...........

How about a bunch of PHDs?
http://www.pba.edu/media/news-releases/red-snapper.cfm
http://www.pba.edu/media/news-releases/red-snapper.cfm

http://www.floridasportsman.com/casts/090626/index.html
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20091022/COLUMNISTS0205/91021041/Don-t-close-the-fishery

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Shipp_Bob_12954493.aspx
www.reef-man.com/ShippBortoneMSfinal.doc

Thanks Overstreet for that info. It was interesting to read. However, I have to say that none of those studies are independent studies, one is anecdotal from a scientist who also happened to be a fisherman, and another was commissioned by Florida Sportsman Magazine.

There are a few factors to keep in mind. When we talk about tons of fish being caught,.....size needs to be part of the equation. Also some people may have improved fishing methods or know where the larger populations live.

Anyway, I did come across something that would be far more problematic than a 6 month ban,........and I do think that would cause a very distinct problem to our fisheries that are so important to our economy:

orlandosentinel.com/news/local/volusia/orl-snapper-grouper-fishing-closure-100709,0,1529309.story

OrlandoSentinel.com
Broad fishing ban would be 'devastating,' captains say
Federal officials want snapper, grouper closure for up to 35 years
Ludmilla Lelis

Sentinel Staff Writer

8:17 PM EDT, October 6, 2009

Before a proposed ban on red snapper was even decided, a more-drastic proposal is causing fear in Florida's fishing industry: a full-scale closure of all grouper and snapper off the south Atlantic for up to 35 years.

The latest proposal would require a massive closure area covering the bottom-fishing grounds from South Carolina to Cape Canaveral and affecting 73 different fish species.

The proposed shutdown would mark the end of the fishing industry and would devastate every business tied to it -- from boating to restaurants to tourism, said Jimmy Hull, a longtime fisherman and owner of Hull's Seafood in Ormond Beach.

Florida's recreational-fishing industry alone is worth $16.7 billion a year, according to the last federal study.

"This is a crucial battle, and the stakes have never been higher," Hull said.

Federal officials developed the broader ban after deciding that its earlier proposal of a short-term red-snapper ban wouldn't be enough to save the treasured fish and other species considered overfished.

The South Atlantic Fishery Management Council, the federal body that proposes new fishing regulations, is considering the broader regulation for 15 to 30 years.

"We know these alternatives are going to have significant economic impacts, but the council must end overfishing -- and long-term, that's a good thing," said Council Chairman Duane Harris. "But there will certainly be huge consequences to recreational and commercial fishing communities. There doesn't appear to be any way to avoid these consequences while ending overfishing for red snapper."

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration could announce by the end of the month whether to ban all red snapper fishing for six months, which could be extended up to a year.

The large-scale closure, if approved, could take effect sometime next year, but it faces a potential lawsuit from fishing groups such as the Fishing Rights Alliance, which sued the government over a grouper closure in the Gulf of Mexico. Public meetings are scheduled in Florida in November.

The proposal, being considered by the council at its December meeting in North Carolina, would close bottom fishing in waters from 90 feet out to 200 miles deep. There are some variations: The smallest proposed-ban area would cover about 8,100 square miles of ocean and the largest ban would cover 26,600 square miles of ocean.

According to a federal fishing study, the red snapper is overfished, down to 3 percent of a healthy stock. Scientists have found the red snapper population lacks the larger, older fish which are key to the fish's reproductive capacity and its future.

Hull, who leads a local chapter of the Southeastern Fisheries Association, said the science is flawed and doesn't reflect what local captains see from their boats. This summer, several captains have enjoyed some of the best red snapper seasons seen in decades.

For example, John Weeks, owner of the Seafood Shoppe in St. Augustine, said he's seen grouper catches increase steadily over the past five years and the boats supplying his shop have caught 8,000 pounds to 10,000 pounds of red snapper in just the past two weeks.

"I fished in the 1970s and 1980s and very seldom did you catch red snapper," Weeks said. "The fish is coming back." Even the federal fishing studies acknowledge the higher catches in recent years, which may lead to a smaller closure area and a shorter time span, but it might not be enough to curtail the ban.

Hull also challenges the idea that red snapper has been overfished. He and other fishermen tried to dispel the federal finding with their own scientific study, but federal scientists stuck with their own data.

"If it was so overfished, for so many years, we wouldn't be able to catch any now," he said.

His group even hired a consultant, Frank Hester, who had a career in fisheries and has a doctorate in marine biology. Hester found that the federal assessment used outdated information and that the data does show that current limits on red snapper are working.

A broad closure, Hull said, "would completely finish us, and it will be devastating."

Ludmilla Lelis can be reached at llelis@orlandosentinel.com or 386-253-0964.

Public meetings Public hearings on the full-scale closure of grouper and snapper fishing will be held throughout the Southeast, including these two meetings: 3 to 7 p.m. on Nov. 11 at the Radisson Resort at the Port, Cape Canaveral 3 to 7 p.m. on Nov. 12 at the Crowne Plaza Jacksonville Riverfront, Jacksonville

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/volusia/orl-snapper-grouper-fishing-closure-100709,0,7412511,print.story

[Overstreet]

The problem is that no matter what the battle lines are along political adgenda lines no matter what experts say. For example, you discount the Florida Sportsman requested "unpaid" review because of who asked it.

[Ocklawaha]

I wonder what the Snappers think of this under the sea? Maybe we could find a couple of very smart ones and get a snapper to snapper interview? Anyway, this last insanity has now expanded to somewhere around 70-90 types of fish... In other words Southern Boys, it's put your rod away and kiss those sweet snappers goodbye. Then again, we could join together and give them all a bill for damage to our employment... Or are these the same guys that will build that HSR from an Airport, to an Amusement Park, to a Interstate Interchange, in Tampa? Jobs! That's it, Billions in jobs... but we can't eat snapper? Wanna bet?

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

The problem is that no matter what the battle lines are along political adgenda lines no matter what experts say. For example, you discount the Florida Sportsman requested "unpaid" review because of who asked it.

Well apparently the Florida Sportsman aren't as interested in sustainable fishing as industry is. Seems the Gulf ( not South Atlantic) industries have worked hard at complying with sustainable fishing, but the sportsmen have not been held responsible in the same way:

November 06, 2009
Snapper back!
I had the privilege this week of attending a luncheon on the red snapper fishery.

Not the one off the Southeast Atlantic coast that is currently embroiled in controversy, but the Gulf of Mexico fishery that is clawing its way back from oblivion with an IFQ and an eye toward tripling its overall quota.

The Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholders' Alliance is working hard to recruit fishermen and other stakeholders to continue their efforts toward branding this recovering fishery and possibly even gaining Marine Stewardship Council certification.

Anyone who is familiar with the Monterey Bay Aquarium's Avoid List (often called the Red List) may be surprised to hear that red snapper fishermen are publicizing their preassessment with the MSC.

Well, that certainly speaks to the confusion often caused by these pocket lists, despite their clear efforts to inform and empower consumers.

But it also speaks to the power of fishermen to recover and resurge.

David Krebs, a Destin, Fla., fisherman, dealer and member of the shareholders' alliance, spoke passionately and eloquently at this gathering in Boston on Wednesday.

When answering questions about the group's marketing efforts and whether the goal was to pump up the price of red snapper, he said, "I don't think fishermen are looking for more money, but they're looking for credibility."

It's a shame that these fishermen who are working to fish sustainably and allow a complete recovery of their fishery also have to have a powerful organization behind them to beg the folks at Monterey Bay to put an asterisk on their red snapper red-listing.

But I sure am glad they have it.

The alliance is also striving to bring some form of accountability to the recreational fleet that claims 49 percent of the overall red snapper quota in the Gulf of Mexico. As of now, there is no tagging program and no reporting requirement.

For more information on the shareholder's alliance, visit their Web site, and consider joining.

http://thesortingtable.nationalfisherman.com/2009/11/snapper-back.html

[Overstreet]

Of course that discounts the fact that the only reason there is a red snapper fishery in the Gulf near the state of Florida is the artifical reef program founded by fishermen and divers that provides habitat for red snapper, grouper and other fishes.  This has drastically increased the red snapper populations. You could read Dr Bob Shipp and learn more, but you ignore all of that.

Your experts are some Californians at the Monteray Aquarium.  An aquarium more interested in kelp beds.