Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?

[Metro Jacksonville]

Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?



After receiving significant support from local governments along the East Coast, FDOT recently submitted a request to use federal dollars to bring high-speed passenger rail to the FEC corridor.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-jacksonville-to-miami-passenger-rail-returning

[FayeforCure]

Excellent plan. I'm glad they are moving on this!

[tufsu1]

You can find all of the applications Florida has submitted (including Tampa to Orlando HSR) on the FDOT Stimulus website

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/

[Ocklawaha]

I call the patio seat in the courtyard of the St. Augustine station, its the same seat I occupied while making sure i was the last first class passenger to ever board an FEC passenger train. Seems sureal that I might live to be one of the first passengers as well.

We need to push hard for a new station with intermodal built in, in San Marco. This location while not that far from Union Terminal  is very close to the old South Jacksonville station of the FEC. The benefit is since this was a station it should still be in the tariff books and thus FEC has it scheduled as a station.

(Words of correction, it's not a "sattelite station" Lake, to put it in the words of the railroad lexicon, it would properly be called a "WAY STATION". )

I'd also encourage our brothers and sisters in Bunell/Palm Coast, Ormond and New Smyrna Beach to get after this program. We all need to encourage Amtrak to spread out our shedule times. Currently 2 round trips daily each to New York and to South/Central Florida. So what has Amtrak done? Runs them back to back within a 2 hour time slot. Rather then southbound at 7:AM and 9:AM, we should have one at 9:AM and another at 11: PM. It's all about CHOICE!

OCKLAWAHA

[cdb]

This will be great for Jacksonville. Riding the train down to Miami for a long weekend would be a great thing. And by 2012 it will probably cost less than the gas I would spend if I drove.

[fsujax]

Also notice the application for the Central Florida commuter rail and all its mention of connections to Jacksonville.

[jbroadglide]

I was just doing a bit of reserach and came across this little tidbit. The property directly behind the old Union Terminal, where the passing siding once was, until the track was torn up, is owned by a private person and not any of the railroads or the city of Jax. Currently value of that narrow strip of land...$187,500. Wanna bet the owners hold out for a whole lot more than that if this entire plan comes true and if Amtrak wants to move the station closer to downtown? And thats not counting the cost it would take to relay track and turnouts at each end. My guess is Amtrak stays right where its it. Maybe upgrade the station a bit. But they stay on Clifford Lane.

[The Compound]

Anyone have an idea of what a roundtrip like this would cost, and how long it would take? I fly down there several times a year and its only about $130 roundtrip on southwest. Way easier than driving, this could be a possibilty if its cheaper than that and doesnt take 5+hrs like driving.

[jbroadglide]

Right now its $110 RT to Miami, but thats by way of Tampa..and its also 9 hours. Again just a guess, but I think it would be under 100 bucks easy and not take as long. And Amtrak always has hot deals on their website. I have gone RT to Miami for about 60 dollars. Just have to check the website. Right now for example, Jax to NY is $117 if I travel on Aug 4. Regular price is $201. Might still be longer than driving but think how relaxed you would be looking out the coach windows at all that traffic in South Florida and knowing you are not out in it! Thats gotta worth dollars right there.

[ralpho37]

Not to rain on anyone's parade but I'd like to offer a few corrections and reality checks...

1)  This is a refinement of standard Amtrak service, not high speed rail.  According to the United States Federal Railroad Administration's (extremely lenient) definition, trains must operate above 90 MPH to be classified as high speed rail.  **Compare this with the European Union's standard of 125+ MPH!**

2)  Many times these projects are more to make a political statement than to offer a true high speed transportation option.  A perfect example is the current "high speed rail" project in New York state.  The state and federal government is currently in negotiations with CSX to operate its Amtrak trains up to 110 MPH along CSX right-of-way.  Sounds great, but the catch is that Amtrak already operates its trains at 110 MPH along much of that line.  Even though the entire budget of the NY project will be spent on upgrading existing right-of-way, the government is advertising it as "new high speed rail service."  Not a bad project at all, but it is by no means an extension of Acela as federal officials want people to believe.

3)  Purchasing of new equipment is not part of this plan.  This new route involves simply routing trains over a new line, not buying new locomotives and passenger cars.

4)  I cannot see Amtrak stopping in San Marco when the main Jacksonville station is located only several miles away.  A stop midway between St. Augustine and Jacksonville (Avenues or Nocatee) is more realistic, but I doubt the demand exists to justify a station.  Amtrak is not pushing this project to give Jacksonville a shot at commuter rail.  This plan is for statewide travel along the east coast, period.

5)  I'd like to point out that in the proposal, it is specifically mentioned that Jacksonville will be the division point between Amtrak service via CSX to the north and the proposed FEC line service to the south.  Being a division point, Jacksonville is the natural location for crew changes, the servicing of equipment, and therefore layovers for passengers.  Do we want layover passengers to wander the rundown, crime-ridden streets of the Northside, or fuel the economic growth of our downtown...  In other words, the city needs to get on the ball and relocate the station to the "proposed" downtown transportation center (which we haven't heard anything about for months now!).

Again, I'm not trying to be negative at all.  This is a great opportunity for Jacksonville and the state, but it should by no means be viewed as true high speed rail or "The Acela of Florida."

[thelakelander]

Not to rain on anyone's parade but I'd like to offer a few corrections and reality checks...

1)  This is a refinement of standard Amtrak service, not high speed rail.  According to the United States Federal Railroad Administration's (extremely lenient) definition, trains must operate above 90 MPH to be classified as high speed rail.  **Compare this with the European Union's standard of 125+ MPH!**

Its actually the start of what could grow into a corridor service.  The money going to pay to increase track capacity is also something Jacksonville could possibly piggyback, in regards to JTA's commuter rail plans.  According to this application, Tri-Rail intends to do the same thing to gain access to the FEC corridor in South Florida.

2)  Many times these projects are more to make a political statement than to offer a true high speed transportation option.  A perfect example is the current "high speed rail" project in New York state.  The state and federal government is currently in negotiations with CSX to operate its Amtrak trains up to 110 MPH along CSX right-of-way.  Sounds great, but the catch is that Amtrak already operates its trains at 110 MPH along much of that line.  Even though the entire budget of the NY project will be spent on upgrading existing right-of-way, the government is advertising it as "new high speed rail service."  Not a bad project at all, but it is by no means an extension of Acela as federal officials want people to believe.

I believe our focus on true HSR is overrated.  Even the HSR Tampa/Orlando link is anticipated to only average 86 mph.  What we really need is to improve track to bring the areas of low speed up to a respectable level to increase average travel times along routes.

3)  Purchasing of new equipment is not part of this plan.  This new route involves simply routing trains over a new line, not buying new locomotives and passenger cars.

The application suggests that new and refurbished rolling stock is a part of the request.

4)  I cannot see Amtrak stopping in San Marco when the main Jacksonville station is located only several miles away.  A stop midway between St. Augustine and Jacksonville (Avenues or Nocatee) is more realistic, but I doubt the demand exists to justify a station.  Amtrak is not pushing this project to give Jacksonville a shot at commuter rail.  This plan is for statewide travel along the east coast, period.

Amtrak may not be pushing to give Jax the best shot at commuter rail.  However, Jax does have the opportunity to use Amtrak as a stepping stone to getting their plans off the ground.  An example of this would be Amtrak increasing track capacity on the FEC.  That's something we would have to pay locally for commuter rail.  Having Amtrak come in first and share in the costs, reduces the capital costs of everything we'll have to fund to implement commuter rail.  A second thing we should look at is moving the Amshack station back downtown.  This not only benefits us, it will benefit Amtrak to have a higher profile location that has the ability to draw additional riders to their intercity and future corridor services.  In any event, we should not expect Amtrak to plan these things for us, our city must step up and make a case.

As for a stop midway between Jax and St. Augustine, it is something that should be studied.  If Polk County can support two Amtrak stations, a place twice the size should be able to as well.  The population of the Southside/Northern St. Johns County is already higher than that of Palm Coast's, Stuart's and a couple of other places that will have new stations.  We might be surprised to see what we can support if we can work it into the updated study process.

5)  I'd like to point out that in the proposal, it is specifically mentioned that Jacksonville will be the division point between Amtrak service via CSX to the north and the proposed FEC line service to the south.  Being a division point, Jacksonville is the natural location for crew changes, the servicing of equipment, and therefore layovers for passengers.  Do we want layover passengers to wander the rundown, crime-ridden streets of the Northside, or fuel the economic growth of our downtown...  In other words, the city needs to get on the ball and relocate the station to the "proposed" downtown transportation center (which we haven't heard anything about for months now!).

Great points.  These should be used by Jacksonville to convince others that this plan should include returning Jacksonville's station downtown.

Again, I'm not trying to be negative at all.  This is a great opportunity for Jacksonville and the state, but it should by no means be viewed as true high speed rail or "The Acela of Florida."

Its definitely not Acela or true HSR.  We should view this for what it is.  An opportunity for better rail connectivity and mobility between Jacksonville, St. Augustine and other communities.  As well as a stepping stone to moving forward on our own commuter rail plans.

[JeffreyS]

It not being 125mph high speed rail is a plus much less money about the same benefit.  Eliminating slow spots is much more important than creating higher top ends.  Avenues area would be the perfect mid point stop shopping, entertainment and lots of new homes in the area.  Amtrak downtown at the Jax terminal is the most important part for our city.

[ralpho37]

Lakelander:  I definitely agree with you on all those points.  Also... "Amshack," very nice!

JeffreyS:  Eliminating slow spots is a perfect example of what is being done in the New York City-Albany corridor.  Most of the improvements that are being applied are to eliminate these "slow spots."  As I stated earlier, there are sections along that route that run 110 MPH, however, there are also several areas that narrow from double track to single track, small railroad yards, and even grade crossings where the 110 speed limit drops to 50 and even 30.

Again, it is very exciting news that this is being set in motion.  Just making sure we're not making this into something it's not.  Also, let's hope that Jacksonville can seize this opportunity by moving its station back downtown and becoming a true railroad hub again!

[Dog Walker]

I can drive from Jax to Miami in under six hours. (Legally!)  If the train can't cut at least one hour off that time, an average of about 60mph, then forget about it.  If I have to drive out to the station in North Jax and pay to park my car then it had better be at least another thirty minutes off the travel time.

[jbroadglide]

Parking is free at the train station...and remember the more station stops you have, the slower the overall trip. Can't have 10 station stops between Jax and Miami and still expect it to get there in 5 hours.