Before Modern Police Forces. America in 1922.

[BridgeTroll]

Doesnt a massive nuclear arsenal perform the same defensive threat that an army does?

No... unless you advocate nuking all aggressors

[civil42806]

Doesnt a massive nuclear arsenal perform the same defensive threat that an army does?

No... unless you advocate nuking all aggressors

Nuclear deterrent is a strategic asset, basically to prevent a mass nuclear attack.  Has nothing really to do with a conventional or regional threat, see Korean, vietnam wars as well as the many proxy wars through africa and central america.  BT you have a much higher opinion of the Saudi Army than I do.  Most of the Saudi elite join the Saudi AF and play fighter pilot.  The other masses go and join the Saudi army to keep the unemployment rate down and play army.    The ones I worked with on occasion and observed, seem to have the attitude that no matter what they did the US army would take care of them.  A lot like the Eurpoean continents armies in the late 70's.

[NotNow]

The United States Army has had a standing Army since its inception in 1775.  For the disputed period, see this quote from the Wiki:

19the century
The War of 1812 (1812-1815), the second and last American war against the British, was less successful than the Revolution had been. An invasion of Canada failed, and U.S. troops were unable to stop the British from burning the new capital of Washington, D.C.. However, the Regular Army, under Generals Winfield Scott and Jacob Brown, proved they were professional and capable of defeating a British army in the Niagara campaign of 1814. Two weeks after a treaty was signed, though, Andrew Jackson defeated the British invasion of New Orleans. However this had little effect, as per the treaty both sides returned to the status quo.

Between 1815 and 1860, a spirit of Manifest Destiny struck the United States, and as settlers moved west the U.S. Army engaged in a long series of skirmishes and battles with Native Americans that the colonists uprooted. The U.S. Army also fought the short Mexicanâ€"American War, which was a victory for the United States and resulted in territory which became all or parts of the states of California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, Wyoming and New Mexico.


The Battle of Gettysburg, the turning point of the American Civil WarThe Civil War (1861-1865) was the most costly war for the United States. After most states in the South seceded to form the Confederate States of America, CSA troops opened fire on the Union-held Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina, starting the war. For the first two years Confederate forces solidly defeated the U.S. Army, but after the decisive battles of Gettysburg in the east and Vicksburg in the west, combined with superior industrial might and numbers, Union troops fought a brutal campaign through Confederate territory and the war ended with a Confederate surrender at Appomatox Courthouse in April 1865. Based on 1860 census figures, 8% of all white males aged 13 to 43 died in the war, including 6% in the North and an extraordinary 18% in the South.[5]

Following the Civil War, the U.S. Army fought a long battle with Native Americans, who resisted U.S. expansion into the center of the continent. But by the 1890s the U.S. saw itself as a potential international player. U.S. victories in the Spanish-American War (1898) and the controversial and less well known Philippine-American War (1898-1913), as well as U.S. intervention in Latin America and the Boxer Rebellion, gained America more land.

All of these conflicts were generally fought by regular Army units.  WW1 led to the need to augment U S Army and National Guard forces and the "National Army" was quickly mobilized and trained.  At wars end, demobilizing men were assigned to Officer and Enlisted Reserve Corps, the predecessor of the U S Army Reserve.  The Army is still generally set up this way, with a core professional force augmented by State National Guard Units and the Reserves.  The maintenance of the draft is a safeguard for rapid mobilization again.  However, in the modern world, I believe that the need to recruit, educate, train, equip, and test a credible fighting force requires a reasonably sized standing Army.  The need for credible military force should be obvious, and the international rule of law has depended on the United States Military for the last seventy years. 

The use of nuclear weapons as a defensive measure is not tactically sound for a number of reasons, of which collateral damage is just one.  Protecting, moviing, effectively and accurately delivering such weapons is another.  I could go on but I think that most would instantly realize the folly of such a plan. 

The Swiss have a standing Army.  It is a conscripted Army in that service is compulsory for male citizens.  Their militia is the same as ours, the armed free able bodied male citizens (and possible female now).  Saudi Arabia has a standing Army of about 150k that is augmented by about 100k National Guard and maybe 20k Navy.  The Royal Guard is now a part of the Saudi Armed forces and is a substatial force.  They are charged with protecting the House of Saud.  The GIP or Intelligence Directorate is also a part of the Saudi military structure and may be the largest organization in it.   I would agree with Civil that they (and the rest of the world) depend heavily on the US.

StephenDare! should not obtain his police history from works of fiction.  While the Guard has been called out on occasion, generally strikes and riots have been handled by State, County, and local law enforcement.  Disputes have been handled by law enforcement here for literally hundreds of years.  In Jax alone, simple a review of the Roll of Honor is in order:

Christopher Kane  - September 4, 2008 - Automobile Accident

Scott E. Bell  - October 12, 2007 - Automobile Accident, Killed by a Drunk Driver

Wilbert Wiggins, Sr.  - November 8, 2002 - Heart Attack on Duty

Michael H. Boynton  - October 9, 1998 - Automobile Accident, Responding to Call

John L. Butler - March 10, 1997 - Heart Attack Evacuating Bystanders at Hostage Scene

James W. Ward - October 17, 1996 - Heart Attack on Duty

Joseph B. Burtner - December 12, 1995 - Shot in Ambush at Suicide Call

Ira Wayne Bramlitt, Jr. - May 22, 1995 - Automobile Accident Responding to Call

Lonnie C. Miller Sr. - May 6, 1995 - Shot by Robbery Suspect

Weldon L. VanLandingham - September 9, 1994 - Heart Attack on Duty

Fred G. Lampe - May 1, 1994 - Heart Attack Assisting Motorist

Warren C. Sanders - July 26, 1990 - Shot During Undercover Stakeout

Charles R. Shinholser, Jr. - December 14, 1988 - Motorcycle Accident

Jeffery Ritchey - February 23, 1987 - Motorcycle Accident

Gary Bevel - May 17, 1983 - Shot Effecting an Arrest

Frederick A. McCall - February 7, 1982 - Heart Attack While Affecting an Arrest

Thomas Szafranski - May 24, 1981 - Shot by a Sniper

Martin Slater, Reserve Officer - Feb. 21, 1981 - Automobile Accident Responding to Call

Fred L. Lucy - Ronald D. Florence - Charles A. Thompson, III
January 8, 1979 - Airplane Crash

Michael D. Stewart - April 27, 1975 - Shot During Robbery in Progress

Glen A. Rainey - August 23, 1974 - Motorcycle Accident

Edward J. Parker - February 6, 1972 - Shot Interrupting a Sexual Battery

James H. Moon - September 27, 1971 - Shot By Mental Patient

David H. Reese - February 28, 1970 - Motorcycle Accident

Jake B. Edwards - February 1, 1968 - Motorcycle Accident

W. L. Griffin - July 29, 1967 - Shot at Burglary Stakeout

William E. McCooley - September 5, 1962 - Motorcycle Accident

Earnest C. Register - April 20, 1960 - Motorcycle Accident

Charles Sea - May 24, 1959 - Shot at Disturbance Call

Napolean B. Harvey - October 2, 1956 - Automobile Accident

Thomas A. Robinson Jr. - December 16, 1953 - Shot by FBI Fugitives

Robert Tucker - December 24, 1952 - Shot Effecting Arrest of Traffic Violator

Fred Higginbotham - August 8, 1947 - Motorcycle Accident

Ellis V. Dyal
Richard M. Scarborough - June 22, 1946 - Shot Approaching Domestic Violence Call

Clarence Ballou - October 15, 1937 - Motorcycle Accident

John P. Ellis - September 11, 1937 - Motorcycle Accident

J. Thomas Watts - May 5, 1933 - Shot Effecting an Arrest

Willie D. Smith - January 19, 1930 - Shoot-Out With Escaped Convicts from Connecticut

Jessie J. Barber - May 20, 1929 - Shot at Disturbance Call

L. M. Dyal - May 23, 1929 - Shot at Disturbance Call

W. J. Kelly - September 3, 1924 - Shot Effecting an Arrest

Henry A. Everett - January 30, 1920 - Shot by Two Burglary Suspects

Charles J. Turknett - September 26, 1919 - Shot Effecting an Arrest

Benjamin F. Hagan - August 10, 1917 - Shot at Disturbance Call

Napolian B. Hagan - September 22, 1913 - Ambushed and Shot by Robbery Suspect

Luther B. Henderson - January 26, 1911 - Shot by Robbery Suspect

Hezekiah Hires - May 13, 1910 - Shot by Saloon Keeper at Disturbance Call

Henry H. Raley - November 29, 1900 - Shot Effecting an Arrest

C. M. Sadler
Dennis Jenkins - June 26, 1899 - Shot at Disturbance Call

W. E. Gruber - April 28, 1897 - Investigating Multiple Homicides

Ed Minor - April 5, 1895 - Effecting an Arrest

Carlton Lowe - February 26, 1890 - Disturbance Call

Joseph Nelson - June 26, 1880 - Shot During Mill Strike

William Johnson - 1870 - Disturbance Call

Ignatio Andrea - April 7, 1869 - Killed in an Ambush

(Town Marshall) Yoemens - 1840 - Disturbance Call

As you can see, Marshall Yoemens lost his life at a disturbance call shortly after the formation of the town.  This history you will find repeated in other United States cities and debunks any notion that law enforcement did not answer "dispute" calls in towns and cities where pre-radio/telephone and automoblie response times allowed it.  With the advent of those technologies, the ability of law enforcement to respond quickly to calls for service has greatly increased the chances of immediate apprehension and also violent encounter.  For the last eighty years the increased activity of a mobile and instant communicatiing law enforcement community has resulted in both public opinion and legal rulings pushing law enforcement to professionalize.  Training in modern techniques, use of force, law, diversity, and conflict resolution cannot be duplicated by 18 year old conscripts, vigilantes, or militia.  Modern law enforcement includes specialized investigative techniques and services such as SWAT, Public Safety Diving, K9, Bomb Squad, Aviation and many others.  It is not feaseble to turn to our neighbors for such services.  I cannot name a modern city that uses a system other than a modern police force, can you? 

[samiam]

Federal law enforcement goes back to 1790
The United States Coast Guard trace it's history back to 4 August 1790, when the first Congress authorized the construction of ten vessels to enforce tariff and trade laws and to prevent smuggling.  Known through the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries as the Revenue Marine and the Revenue Cutter Service,

[NotNow]

I stand corrected samiam.  I meant the investigative agencies and not the tariff and coastal enforcement which dates back to the creation of the republic.  Thanks for the correction.

[Ocklawaha]

Ok.

Why werent there speeding laws governing horse or train traffic?

Okay, this isn't my discussion HOWEVER...

There WERE laws that prohibited running a horse, carriage or wagon in downtown. The pattern followed on similar rules that kept the brothels in limited areas as well as the NO GUNS allowed ordinances.

Trains have had speed limits from the earliest railroads. Along the tracks you will see diamond shaped signs, yellow with a number on them, SPEED LIMIT for freight. A green diamond is for passengers, and is in the same format. Early trains had to have speed limits because many of the rails were wooden with thin iron straps screwed to the rails as a running surface. The straps would often bend or break loose and pierce the bottom of rail cars impaling whoever or whatever was inside.

OCKLAWAHA

[macbeth25]

Please take a look at this reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland.   It appears that your comment regarding Switzerland's not having armed forces might not be entirely correct.

[samiam]

I do believe that local law enforcement should be augmented by members of the community, but as mentioned before there is a liability issue.

[macbeth25]

But this still doesnt explain what you mean by 'necessary' which was my question to you..  What change or events do you see that made standing armies necessary for the United States?  And how did it make them necessary?
I agree with the necessity of forming an army for WW2.
Maybe even peacekeeping afterwards.
Doesnt a massive nuclear arsenal perform the same defensive threat that an army does?

Stephen, I just don’t understand your comment regarding “forming an army for WW2.”  Do you really believe that we didn’t have an army before that?  Regarding a “massive nuclear threat,” you can always call an army back â€" the same concept was true for the Strategic Air Command and fail safe â€" you can’t call back a missile and it’s rather difficult to negate the effects of a nuclear explosion.

[BridgeTroll]

There is no lack of knowledge on my part.  Quite the contrary... there seems to be a lack of understanding on your part.  You are attempting to parse definitions to some kind of pre concieved notion of military preparedness.  Regular army... national army... the point is... we had a freeking army!  We had a navy!  It is like you are trying to tell me we didnt have an air force until after WWII just because it was part of the army.

The question you have not answered yet is... Where are you going with this?  Are you suggesting we disband the armed forces to "regular army" status and reconstitute to "Standing Army" status to fight a war?

Rather than argue semantics it would be helpful to understand why these distinctions seem important to you.

[civil42806]

Ok.

Why werent there speeding laws governing horse or train traffic?

Okay, this isn't my discussion HOWEVER...

There WERE laws that prohibited running a horse, carriage or wagon in downtown. The pattern followed on similar rules that kept the brothels in limited areas as well as the NO GUNS allowed ordinances.

Trains have had speed limits from the earliest railroads. Along the tracks you will see diamond shaped signs, yellow with a number on them, SPEED LIMIT for freight. A green diamond is for passengers, and is in the same format. Early trains had to have speed limits because many of the rails were wooden with thin iron straps screwed to the rails as a running surface. The straps would often bend or break loose and pierce the bottom of rail cars impaling whoever or whatever was inside.

OCKLAWAHA

Congradualtions Ock, think that was the biggest stretch ever in this websites history to inject rail into a thread that had nothing to do with it.

[Dog Walker]

The Cold War made it necessary for us to maintain a large "standing army".  We expected the Russians to come pouring through the Fulda Gap through Germany and into Western Europe.  The idiot "domino theory" also caused us to keep large numbers of troops in such places as South Korea and caused our intervention in Vietnam.

Since these threats are gone, the question becomes do we STILL need a large "standing" army rather than a "national defense force."  Some (especially libertarians) will argue that having a large "world force projection" capable army just tempts our leaders into foreign adventures such as Grenada, Panama, Kuwait, Iraq and that all we need is a "national defense force" to protect our borders, a navy to keep free passage of the seas and our nuclear deterrent force to check any nuclear attack.

Others will argue that the "Pax Americana" that we have imposed on the world since the end of WWII has produced a more stable, prosperous world and that if we had not done it one of the bad guys would have to our detriment. 

[macbeth25]

Regarding your "nuclear deterrent," you might consider the aftermath.  Here's what one rather smart man said:

"I don't know what kind of weapons will be used in the third world war, assuming there will be a third world war. But I can tell you what the fourth world war will be fought with -- stone clubs." -
  --  Albert Einstein
 
There was also a tv series which recently went off the air -- but it's still available on the Internet.  It was called Jericho and discussed the use of nuclear weapons by terrorists in the United States.  They turned out to be "home grown domestic terrorists."  I really liked the show. Another related movie was Deterrence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_(film) and just one more is The Day After, a movie about nuclear war.  Of course, you might remember On the Beach. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Beach_(1959_film).  I believe that these should be required viewing for all heads of state and all those who might influence "pushing the button."

[Clem1029]

I realize now that this is simply something which you cannot discuss, and will no longer do so with you.

As an aside out of curiosity...do you have this set phrase set up as an autotext or something?

[civil42806]

I realize now that this is simply something which you cannot discuss, and will no longer do so with you.

As an aside out of curiosity...do you have this set phrase set up as an autotext or something?

Your Cut off!!!