Before Modern Police Forces. America in 1922.

[stephendare]

Most people no longer remember a time before our cities began to create and enlarge the Police Forces.

This is truly one bureaucracythat just keeps growing and growing demanding more power and funding with every years.

Before the police, men were only mustered in times of trouble or unrest, usually at the behest of a local mayor of the chamber of commerce by the local militias.

In re reading Babbitt, by Sinclair Lewis, I found the following passage about the deployment of the local militia by the Goodfellows of the city of Zenith:

     The strikers had announced a parade for Tuesday morning, but Colonel Nixon had forbidden it, the newspapers said. When Babbitt drove west from his office at ten that morning he saw a drove of shabby men heading toward the tangled, dirty district beyond Court House Square. He hated them, because they were poor, because they made him feel insecure "Damn loafers! Wouldn't be common workmen if they had any pep," he complained. He wondered if there was going to be a riot. He drove toward the starting-point of the parade, a triangle of limp and faded grass known as Moore Street Park, and halted his car.
     The park and streets were buzzing with strikers, young men in blue denim shirts, old men with caps. Through them, keeping them stirred like a boiling pot, moved the militiamen. Babbitt could hear the soldiers' monotonous orders: "Keep movingâ€"move on, 'boâ€"keep your feet warm!" Babbitt admired their stolid good temper. The crowd shouted, "Tin soldiers," and "Dirty dogsâ€"servants of the capitalists!" but the militiamen grinned and answered only, "Sure, that's right. Keep moving, Billy!"
     Babbitt thrilled over the citizen-soldiers, hated the scoundrels who were obstructing the pleasant ways of prosperity, admired Colonel Nixon's striding contempt for the crowd; and as Captain Clarence Drum, that rather puffing shoe-dealer, came raging by, Babbitt respectfully clamored, "Great work, Captain! Don't let 'em march!" He watched the strikers filing from the park. Many of them bore posters with "They can't stop our peacefully walking." The militiamen tore away the posters, but the strikers fell in behind their leaders and straggled off, a thin unimpressive trickle between steel-glinting lines of soldiers. Babbitt saw with disappointment that there wasn't going to be any violence, nothing interesting at all. Then he gasped.
     Among the marchers, beside a bulky young workman, was Seneca Doane, smiling, content. In front of him was Professor Brockbank, head of the history department in the State University, an old man and white-bearded, known to come from a distinguished Massachusetts family.
     "Why, gosh," Babbitt marveled, "a swell like him in with the strikers? And good ole Senny Doane! They're fools to get mixed up with this bunch. They're parlor socialists! But they have got nerve. And nothing in it for them, not a cent! Andâ€"I don't know 's all the strikers look like such tough nuts. Look just about like anybody else to me!"
     The militiamen were turning the parade down a side street.
     "They got just as much right to march as anybody else! They own the streets as much as Clarence Drum or the American Legion does!" Babbitt grumbled. "Of course, they'reâ€"they're a bad element, butâ€"Oh, rats!"
     At the Athletic Club, Babbitt was silent during lunch, while the others fretted, "I don't know what the world's coming to," or solaced their spirits with "kidding."
     Captain Clarence Drum came swinging by, splendid in khaki.
     "How's it going, Captain?" inquired Vergil Gunch.
     "Oh, we got 'em stopped. We worked 'em off on side streets and separated 'em and they got discouraged and went home."
     "Fine work. No violence."
     "Fine work nothing!" groaned Mr. Drum. "If I had my way, there'd be a whole lot of violence, and I'd start it, and then the whole thing would be over. I don't believe in standing back and wet-nursing these fellows and letting the disturbances drag on. I tell you these strikers are nothing in God's world but a lot of bomb-throwing socialists and thugs, and the only way to handle 'em is with a club! That's what I'd do; beat up the whole lot of 'em!"
     Babbitt heard himself saying, "Oh, rats, Clarence, they look just about like you and me, and I certainly didn't notice any bombs."
     Drum complained, "Oh, you didn't, eh? Well, maybe you'd like to take charge of the strike! Just tell Colonel Nixon what innocents the strikers are! He'd be glad to hear about it!" Drum strode on, while all the table stared at Babbitt.
     "What's the idea? Do you want us to give those hell-hounds love and kisses, or what?" said Orville Jones.
     "Do you defend a lot of hoodlums that are trying to take the bread and butter away from our families?" raged Professor Pumphrey.
     Vergil Gunch intimidatingly said nothing. He put on sternness like a mask; his jaw was hard, his bristly short hair seemed cruel, his silence was a ferocious thunder. While the others assured Babbitt that they must have misunderstood him, Gunch looked as though he had understood only too well. Like a robed judge he listened to Babbitt's stammering:
     "No, sure; course they're a bunch of toughs. But I just meanâ€"Strikes me it's bad policy to talk about clubbing 'em. Cabe Nixon doesn't. He's got the fine Italian hand. And that's why he's colonel. Clarence Drum is jealous of him."
     "Well," said Professor Pumphrey, "you hurt Clarence's feelings, George. He's been out there all morning getting hot and dusty, and no wonder he wants to beat the tar out of those sons of guns!"
     Gunch said nothing, and watched; and Babbitt knew that he was being watched.

Its strange to think of a city of 300k who thought in terms of civil defence and maintaining order in this way.

[BridgeTroll]

Are you actually... seriously... advocating abolishment of the Police and standing Army, Navy, and Air Force?  This seems to be the direction you are heading.

There were no speeding laws

Didnt need em...

There were no drug wars.

Really?  I think there were.

The police did not settle domestic disputes or civil disagreements.

Of course they did...

[BridgeTroll]

Stephen...

I am simply asking if abolishment of those departments was what you were advocating?  I just want to know where my discussion partner is coming from.

Why speeding laws?  "The higher the speed of a vehicle, the more difficult collision avoidance becomes and the greater the damage if a collision does occur. Therefore, many countries of the world limit the maximum speed allowed on their roads. Vehicles are not supposed to be driven at speeds which are higher than the posted maximum."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic

There have been wars on drugs since... drugs.  "In the 18th century, despite ardent protest from the Qing government, British traders began importing opium from India. Because of its strong mass appeal and addictive nature, opium was an effective solution to the trade problem. An instant consumer market for the drug was secured, and the flow of silver into China that had threatened to cripple British and other European economies was reversed[citation needed]. Recognizing the growing number of addicts, the Yongzheng Emperor prohibited the sale and smoking of opium in 1729, and only allowed a small amount of opium imports for medicinal purposes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

What do you consider a domestic dispute?  Separating a warring husband and wife?  Breaking up a fight?  Redirecting potential juvenile delinquents?  Police have done this since... Police!


A standing Army is self explanatory... Perhaps you explain why a standing Army, Navy, and Airforce are not needed.

[BridgeTroll]

As to the militia... this sentence in the  article you posted says it all... "Though during his presidency, after enduring the failures of the militia in the War of 1812, James Madison came to favor the maintenance of a strong standing army."

Trains have had speed limits for a long time and there were "rules of the road" for horses and carriages.
The first speed limit was the 10mph (16.1 km/h) limit introduced by the Locomotive Act of 1861 (or "Red Flag Act") in the United Kingdom (automobiles were in those days termed “light locomotives”). In 1865, the revised Locomotive Act reduced the speed limit to 4 mph (6 km/h) in the country and 2 mph (3 km/h) in towns. The 1865 Act required a man with a red flag or lantern to walk 60 yards (50 m) ahead of each vehicle, enforce a walking pace, and warn horse riders and horse drawn traffic of the approach of a self-propelled machine. The replacement of the "Red Flag Act" by the Locomotive Act of 1896, and the increase of the speed limit to 14 mph (23 km/h) has been commemorated each year since 1927 by the London to Brighton Veteran Car Run.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit

There were no laws governing spousal or child abuse in the united states and dueling continued well into the end of the 1800s.  If you remember, Alexander Hamilton was shot to death in a duel with Aaron Burr.

Ah... the good old days!

[BridgeTroll]

I do not think they are true at all and yes I do think they are necessary.  Traffic laws are needed for obvious reasons.  Same for a standing army and police force.

There is a debate on "The war on drugs" mainly concerning marijuana but I don't hear too many advocates for legalizing heroin, cocaine or methamphetamine.

Where do you come up with 130 years past 1812 for the establishment of a standing army?

[BridgeTroll]

I have read and comprehended everything...  Perhaps this will shed some light...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy

[BridgeTroll]

Because your answers are wrong.

The War of 1812 (1812-1815), the second and last American war against the British, was less successful than the Revolution had been. An invasion of Canada failed, and U.S. troops were unable to stop the British from burning the new capital of Washington, D.C.. However, the Regular Army, under Generals Winfield Scott and Jacob Brown, proved they were professional and capable of defeating a British army in the Niagara campaign of 1814. Two weeks after a treaty was signed, though, Andrew Jackson defeated the British invasion of New Orleans. However this had little effect, as per the treaty both sides returned to the status quo.

Between 1815 and 1860, a spirit of Manifest Destiny struck the United States, and as settlers moved west the U.S. Army engaged in a long series of skirmishes and battles with Native Americans that the colonists uprooted. The U.S. Army also fought the short Mexicanâ€"American War, which was a victory for the United States and resulted in territory which became all or parts of the states of California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, Wyoming and New Mexico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Point

[BridgeTroll]

Are you trying to discern some difference between "regular army and National army?

[BridgeTroll]

The term National army has many meanings around the world, and is used typically, but not necessarily, to mean the lawful army of the state as distinct from rebel armies or private armies that may operate there.

The Regular Army is a name given to the permanent force of a country's army that is maintained under arms during peacetime.

[BridgeTroll]

It seems likely that you are looking for answers that conform with what you already think.

This seems to apply to you more than me...

[BridgeTroll]

It would seem so... but you need to research further.  I have posted plenty of articles refuting your contention that we had no standing army for 130 years after 1812.  Clearly we did.

[BridgeTroll]

So what exactly is the point?  Are you saying we should disband the armed forces?  Should each county and state have their own militias?

[BridgeTroll]

I would submit that we keep a standing army for the same reason most countries do.  The time has long past where there was time to form and mobilize an army and actually win a war.  A proffesional and standing army is a requirement in todays world.  It would be nice if it was not so... but it is.

[BridgeTroll]

Saudi Arabia has a very capable air force and a growing navy.  They also have an army.  Switzerland also has an army... which service is compulsory for all males.

[BridgeTroll]

Yes I do... but so what?  Your picking out a few points and calling them black and white.  The core of the militia or whatever is a professional army.  They have a very capable armed force.

I am very aware of Saudi military... I have worked with them.