Downtown Construction Update - July 2009

[heights unknown]

Looking at Bay Street I was wondering what our bar-club-coffee shop "district" is up to. We have the "Learning From XXX" series that Lakelander runs on here and we always see "Jacksonville has 4 bars on Bay Street." That's not quite 100% truth any more, perhaps we should change the numbers as we grow. Think about the other cities we talk about, City XX has "XXTOWNE" a club district and night life center with 600 clubs. Hurrah for City XX, but thinking about it, don't we also have a SAN MARCO? a FIVE POINTS? or a PARK AND KING? Would these not be just as much an addition to the central core as "Little Saigon" in Orlando, or as much as the South Beach is to Miami?

I understand the humor in our "4 bars" line, and it might indeed have the desired effect of shaming some of our good citizens toward more action. The negative side is this is not just a Jacksonville forum. As the MetroJacksonville site gets spun around the world more and more outsiders are reading "Only 4 bars in Jacksonville." The 4 bars line might be a very negative thing - even though I know it has purpose. So many new voices are logging on now, perhaps it's time to throw them a new twist:

"Jacksonville has XX + restaurants, bars and clubs in 4 distinct urban nightlife districts..."

This certainly would toss some positive light on Old Hickory's Town. Everywhere I traveled on this recent trip, Jacksonville was getting rave reviews from someone... Very positive toward us.

OCKLAWAHA

I think he is pointing to the entertainment available in the central business district, downtown, urban core, etc., which is fine, but the city's entertainment in my opinion encompasses more than what entertainment or recreation is available downtown.  I agree, indicate also what is available in San Marco, Mandarin, Riverside, Five Points, Northside (if applicable), Springfield, etc.

Heights Unknown

[ralpho37]

Ocklawaha has a very good point, I think it would be best to rethink the whole "downtown Jacksonville has 4 restaurants and bars" thing.  It definitely puts downtown in too negative a light to make the city attractive to newcomers.

[fsu813]

Well, i think it's refering to a central location of entertainment Downtown. Bay Street has 4 bars, yes. And they are close. The others aren't connected. Though I do think The Landing & Bay Street are close enough to be considered the same area.

Marks, Dive, Ivy, TSI, Twisted Martini, Mavericks, London Bridge, The Sinclair....that's 8 right there, though they are not all connected. Cafe 331 is also open late, maybe Poppy Love Smoke....

[thelakelander]

You can add The Sterling to that nightlife list, they opened last month.

do you mean The Sinclair...which is actually on West Forsyth Street?

Shows that I don't go clubbing downtown.

I just think it needs to be expanded, because limiting it to E Bay seems a little harsh/

We're so sprawled out, I guess it may be a little more difficult to explain what a true nightlife district is.

East Bay or the Bay Street Town Center (between Main and Liberty) is the city's designated "nightlife/entertainment district".  Also, to describe "district", think about it being a compact cluster of a mix of complementing uses.  As our "district" grows, its boundaries will be naturally expanded.

Well, i think it's refering to a central location of entertainment Downtown. Bay Street has 4 bars, yes. And they are close. The others aren't connected. Though I do think The Landing & Bay Street are close enough to be considered the same area.

Marks, Dive, Ivy, TSI, Twisted Martini, Mavericks, London Bridge, The Sinclair....that's 8 right there, though they are not all connected. Cafe 331 is also open late, maybe Poppy Love Smoke....

Bingo.  Put them all on the same block and you have a "district".  Spread them out all over downtown and you don't. 


A successful nightlife district has a multiple bars, restaurants, and entertainment uses in a compact setting.  Here are a few examples of nightlife districts.  The common theme is that there are multiple bars, restaurants and complementing entertainment uses adjacent to each other.

South Beach (Miami Beach)


4th Street (Cleveland)


Ybor City (Tampa)


In Downtown Jacksonville, outside of the Landing's courtyard, East Bay is where this scene takes place.

Ocklawaha has a very good point, I think it would be best to rethink the whole "downtown Jacksonville has 4 restaurants and bars" thing.  It definitely puts downtown in too negative a light to make the city attractive to newcomers.

The Elements of Urbanism series is not about boosting any particular city's numbers.  Its about showing a visual image of similar "districts" and development issues, we deal with locally, in our peer communities.  To go back again, its not downtown has 4 bars, its downtown's nightlife district has 4 bars.  East Bay is about as close to a true bonefide nightlife district in our downtown core.  If it makes you guys feel better, we can take out the 4 bars thing and just refer to East Bay, as downtown's entertainment district.

but the city's entertainment in my opinion encompasses more than what entertainment or recreation is available downtown.  I agree, indicate also what is available in San Marco, Mandarin, Riverside, Five Points, Northside (if applicable), Springfield, etc.

Heights Unknown

One problem.  This particular comparison just identifies the city's main downtown nightlife district.  This officially eliminates areas outside of downtown from this specific highlight.  To be fair, this not only applies to Jacksonville, but the select peer city as well.  In other words, its an apples to apples comparison that is not cooked one way or the other.

[Ocklawaha]

I'd say my point is, that in many similar cities, we are penning the bars of "South Beach" against our Bay Street clubs. South Beach is as much as part of downtown Miami as 5-Points or San Marco are to Jacksonville. So really is it apples to apples?

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Yes it was apples to apples because South Beach is not mentioned as Downtown Miami's nightlife district, because it is not in downtown.  Coral Gables, South Miami, the Design District, Coconut Grove and a host of other San Marco/Five Point styled areas down there were also omitted because they were not downtown, which was the main focus of the Downtown Miami article.

Downtown Nightlife:

Miami: Park West District. A collection of nightclubs in a three block stretch of old warehouses on NE 11th Street near I-395.
Jacksonville: East Bay Street, located between Main Street and Liberty Street.  This four block stretch is home to four bars and clubs.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-elements-of-urbanism-miami


However, South Beach was significant enough to warrant their own Elements of Urbanism article:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-apr-elements-of-urbanism-south-beach

[blizz01]

So where do places like The Burrito Gallery & London Bridge get lumped in?

[thelakelander]

They are downtown, but not part of a nightlife district.  The same could be said for Da Real Thing, 331 and the Pearl.  They are positive nightlife elements but they don't make up a district because of their isolation with complementing uses.  Nevertheless, if more establishments come to the East Bay area, around the Florida Theater, and the Haydon Burns project takes off, the BG, London Bridge and Poppy Loves Smoke could combine with the others to become a decent district spanning mulitple blocks with a continuous line of bars, restaurants and clubs.

[Ocklawaha]

Well now we're getting somewhere! Gee this is fun!


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Its not that complicated.  Its just as simple to determine as the difference between a mall and a couple of isolated retail stores located along a mile long stretch of Blanding Blvd.  I really don't see what the big deal is. 

[Tripoli1711]

They are downtown, but not part of a nightlife district.  The same could be said for Da Real Thing, 331 and the Pearl.  They are positive nightlife elements but they don't make up a district because of their isolation with complementing uses.  Nevertheless, if more establishments come to the East Bay area, around the Florida Theater, and the Haydon Burns project takes off, the BG, London Bridge and Poppy Loves Smoke could combine with the others to become a decent district spanning mulitple blocks with a continuous line of bars, restaurants and clubs.

Right on.  And this is exactly the point.  I see where you are coming from with all of this and I think you are exactly right.  Think of it this way folks.  If I say to someone "want to head downtown and hit the bars?" they would almost certainly think of Bay Street.  Not San Marco, not Riverside.  Why?  Because if I meant that I would say "hey, want to head to San Marco and grab some drinks?"  Bay Street is the downtown district.  The description is spot on.  If everything works out right (insert prayers here), in the not too distant future this district will expand one block north and include everything on Forsyth.

[Tripoli1711]

Ocklawaha has a very good point, I think it would be best to rethink the whole "downtown Jacksonville has 4 restaurants and bars" thing.  It definitely puts downtown in too negative a light to make the city attractive to newcomers.

It can.  However some people are more enterprising sorts.  Perhaps someone who has succeeded elsewhere and looking for a new project will view that and say "here is a market that is begging to expand, and I am just the person to do it."

[jbroadglide]

If you happen to be downtown near the Jake M Godbold City Hall Annex and Lobsterhouse, check out the plaque at the front door and see if you don't see something wrong within the first few paragraphs..And the city paid good money for it....

[blizz01]

Please expound.

[Steve]

Ocklawaha has a very good point, I think it would be best to rethink the whole "downtown Jacksonville has 4 restaurants and bars" thing.  It definitely puts downtown in too negative a light to make the city attractive to newcomers.

Our role has never been that of a "PR Company".  Talk to DVI for that.