Elements of Urbanism: Indianapolis 2009

[JaxNative68]

In my opinion this has been the most poignant comparison yet.

"The scaled aerials below show it all" is a very telling graphic.
What stands out most to me on the aerials is density.  The City of Jacksonville needs to create better incentives for business and people to move back downtown.  If you can get the businesses to move back the people will follow along with retail.

I really like the similarities that could be: Canal Walk - Jax's forgotten canal and Circle Centre Mall - Jax Landing.

With a lot of creative infill, Jacksonville's downtown could easily be as successful as Indy's, but three fold in size.  With our river, beaches and better climate (ignoring this past month's rain) Jacksonville would be much more enticing than Indy.  Just invite everyone down here in the Fall, our weather will have them packing their bags up north.  Now if we can only get the Jags to overcome the Colts in the playoffs!

[brainstormer]

Excellent discussion so far!  I really think connectivity is one of the key issues why our downtown doesn't look like Indy.  We have some of the same venues plus we have the river, yet still we can't seem to get it right.  Imagine if Memorial Arena had been built within walking distance of the Landing and Bay Street?  Right there Jax could have had one more thing inside Lake's red box (I love the overlay by the way!).

Looking ahead, a new convention center has to happen and the old courthouse site is the key spot.  Because of many of the bad choices we have made in the past, fixed mass transit such as streetcars is also a must to help compensate for some of our spread out venues.  I like the above ideas about FBC and there are a lot of other small ideas we can come up with.  Unfortunately, it takes big ideas like arenas, convention centers and malls, to bring in the people and the small businesses won't survive until the people come.

Other noticings include outdoor sidewalk seating and many public statues, fountains and interesting artwork.  I also think their downtown signage really adds flavor and fun to the area.  Look at the huge, red vertical parking sign, the vertical Borders sign, the Grill with an actual grill on top of the sign, Bob's neon palm tree and Hard Rock signs that stick out over the sidewalk, Alcatraz Brewing Company's entrance, and the various clocks and colorful banners on the sides of windowless buildings.  All of the color and art creates a fun vibe to walking around downtown.  Our downtown businesses are severely lacking in this department!  We need to encourage more of this.

[Keith-N-Jax]

I visited Indy in 07, they love their Colts. Blue and white with horse shoe is everywhere. I liked their downtown its smallish like ours, but appears to be more dense and with activity. The only time you will see a fair amount of activity downtown its has to be an event or holiday. The city nor most residents dont embrace our downtown. Downtown is suppose to be like your living room where you put your best funiture. IMO with our river, bridges, port, and certainly our weather we should be there already. The 10 to 20 yrs and will be there has gotton old now. Its time for citizens to start holding city leaders accountable for their actions.

[Overstreet]

I grew up in the burbs of Indy. I rarely recognize that area now. The suburbs have changed too. Most for the worst. Seems folks have moved farther out. Some is the kids grow up, get jobs, and move out of their parents house. They then buy houses farther out and the old neighborhoods decay.

The transition of downtown started 30 years ago in Indy. It takes time. One reason so many buildings down town are connected is the weather. It gets real cold and sloppy in the winter. All that pretty white snow in pictures turns to brown slush on city streets.  Before they started the push down town it emptied much like Jacksonville.  However there was always the activity of the state government offices, capital, etc. 

The Soldiers and Sailors monument in Monument Circle downtown was originally the site of the Governor’s residence. But one of the governor’s wives did not like the fact that her laundry was hanging outside for all to see and the residence was moved.  The fountains were often the brunt of pranksters that would either put dish detergent or dye markers in the water turning the water into suds or antifreeze colored water.

The thing though is I can go to Indy. See a race, go to a play, visit a park, visit a museum, eat in some fine restaurants and never need to go downtown.  Not all that is to be seen or do in Indianapolis is in downtown.

[thelakelander]

^Good point.  Despite being able to go see a race, play, visit a park, museum, and eat outside of downtown Indy, the core is still compact and vibrant.  The same can happen in Jacksonville.  You say Indy's conversion has been a 30 year process.  Well the DT Jax you see today is the result of a 40 year process of not placing a priority on how individual projects integrate with their surrounding environments.

Imo, we don't have to go 30 years to turn around things.  Doing that makes our redevelopment process actually stretch out to 70.  When we take a close look, its easy to see the Jax has a lot of development already in place to serve as the cornerstones for a vibrant district.  Our issue will be finding a way to better utilize, connect and integrate them with one another.  If we can embrace this issue and properly attack it, change for the better will happen rapidly.

[JaxNative68]

definately better connectivity will help these area grow and eventually become one.  Why do most threads on this site circle back to the street car?

[JaxNative68]

to the above - excuse my spelling, sometimes fast typing isn't my friend, and I'm not intelligent enough to use the spell check.

[thelakelander]

definately better connectivity will help these area grow and eventually become one.  Why do most threads on this site circle back to the street car?

My guess is because its the one thing that, if re-established, can trigger rapid progress on many of the issues we consider important locally.  Those issues include downtown vibrancy, reducing sprawl, encouraging sustainable development, redeveloping inner city neighborhoods, attracting quality infill economic development, reducing crime in blighted areas, enhancing regional mobility, improving mass transit, education (indirectly through urban infill and corporate relocations).

[JaxNative68]

If there were quality mass transit connecting the beach to downtown, I would definitely ride it to work every day that was feasible (days without meeting around town).

[thelakelander]

I spent some time in Broad Ripple around December 2007.  last month, I was only in town for about 2-3 hours, so I spent the entire time walking around downtown.

[JaxNative68]

When living in DC I used my feet, the metro, cabs and buses to get around during the week.  My car sat in the driveway and was only used on the weekends for getting out of town for entertainment purposes.  Not to mention I was probably 25 lbs lighter due to the walking.

When you live in a city that has great connectivity and a vibrant streetscape it is amazing how far you will walk to get somewhere without even thinking about it.  This can definitely be said for many thriving metropolises around the county and something I truly miss since moving back to Jax, along with my smaller pants size.

I am hopeful that one day it can be experience here as well.

[thelakelander]

Your point is one that I have noticed while visiting Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Cleveland over the last week.  In Jax, State and Union are seen as streets that cut off pedestrian traffic between Downtown and Springfield.  In most vibrant major cities, heavily traveled streets like State and Union are normal.  Despite this, people still cross them on foot with no problem.  The major difference: There's a reason to cross the street and continue walking.  There are things on the other side of them instead of parking garages, surface parking lots and vacant plots of land.

[brainstormer]

^We always blame State and Union for cutting off the downtown from Springfield, but I don't think it's those two streets alone.  If you think about it, it is over a mile walk from Hemming Plaza to Third and Main with virtually nothing of use in between.  If I walk from City Hall, I pass three solid blocks of parking garages and windowless buildings (FBC!), then have to cross two busy 4 lane streets, a vacant lot, more run down buildings, a fenced in park full of goose crap, more vacant lots and used car lots and finally I could stop for some ice cream or a soda.  I forgot about Hola!, but I think I've made my point.  We can't seem to connect our convention center to a hotel, let alone connect two residential/retail areas (Laura/Adams Street and Springfield).  When you factor in the 90 degree weather during the summer, it really isn't surprising.
One of the reasons we push streetcars or skyway extensions is because having fixed transit that connects these areas would be economically beneficial and small businesses would see a boost in revenue by getting away from only serving the small microcosms every part of this city currently operates in.  Those of us who hate driving and parking would have an option because right now our option is to just not bother.  I can make mac and cheese with much less hassle.

[lewyn]

Is the South Bank part of the problem? Having destinations divided by the river is not exactly an asset.

[Keith-N-Jax]

I cant see having the split Banks a problem when its a very short drive, and the skway connects/ If anything it gives you great views when crossing. The problem with the city is not its seperate banks.