Fare Free Transit Wins Top Awards... is Jacksonville watching?

[9a is my backyard]

I bet the entire system of JTA's could be fare free for a few years, for less than the cost of adding a pair of HOV lanes on I-95 or JTB or some other such highway. 

Ock, is there any way we can access this information (as far as how much revenue JTA buses take in/how many riders per route, etc)?

[urbanlibertarian]

ftpeditors wrote:

"urbanlibertarian: are you against public subsidy of profit-making firms? If so, you should be marching in the streets against the $trillions spent to support the auto system. Fuel taxes support only about 60 percent of hi-ways. Who pays for the medical costs, traffic congestion, "free" parking, cheap parking, drainage problems, noise, collision cleanup, carbon dioxide emissions, oil wars, direct tax-money handouts to oil and auto companies, government loan guarantees, tax breaks for auto plant site choice (including foreign auto firms), license bureaucracy, auto insurance government bureaucracy, health costs from driving stress, etc. For our list of autosprawl externalities, see http://freepublictransit.org/index.php?pr=Externalities"

Yes, I am against all the Bush-Obama bailouts and all subsidies (including agriculture), tax breaks, regulations and tarriffs that businesses get politicians to enact for them.  I consider it corporate welfare and it's very costly to consumers and taxpayers.  I would be marching in the streets against it if it wasn't so ingrained in our culture and government.  I have nothing against transit but the main reason that people put up with all those externalities is that automobiles are VERY convenient compared to other modes of transportation and people value the personal freedom they get for the cost and aggravation of those externalities.  IMO we have too little personal freedom, not too much.

[9a is my backyard]

I have nothing against transit but the main reason that people put up with all those externalities is that automobiles are VERY convenient compared to other modes of transportation and people value the personal freedom they get for the cost and aggravation of those externalities.  IMO we have too little personal freedom, not too much.

While I agree in general with your views on personal freedom, when it comes to automobiles, we have to realize the true cost that goes along with them.  At the moment, cars are being produced by companies who are heavily subsidized (both US and foreign automakers) and are being powered by energy sources that predominately spread wealth outside the US and heavily pollute the atmosphere.  When the new EPA regulations are enacted next year that include stricter ground-level ozone standards, Jacksonville (along with many other cities I'm sure) is at risk of not meeting the standards.  I'm pretty sure if we are below standards, we can't access federal funding of roads, highways, etc although I'm not entire sure how the rules work.  Not only that, our highways have torn apart neighborhoods (see I-95 on the Northside), created lots of controversy (I'm looking at you Outer Beltway), contributed to increased sprawl, and have done little to alleviate our traffic issues.

I think if we had a free transit system, more people would ride it.  If more people were riding it, we could increase service.  If we could increase service, even more people would ride it, and it could snowball from there.

I'm of the opinion that a hour long public transit commute is better than a 30 minute commute in my car (although I'm sure I'm in the minority there).  I like riding transit because I can interact with people, I can read, I can relax, I can nap - I can do a lot of things I can't do in my car.  I'm not saying everyone should dump their car, because there are times when it is virtually necessary.  That said, I live in Jacksonville and I only use my car a few times a month - if I have a meeting during work hours, I need to haul something, or if I need to go somewhere outside the 'Jacksonville metro.'

I think an improved transit system would lead to a much more vibrant downtown and could potentially transform Jacksonville and NE FL.

[Lunican]

Cars are only more convenient when we build our cities for them. When we build around transit, that is more convenient.

[ProjectMaximus]

Cars are only more convenient when we build our cities for them. When we build around transit, that is more convenient.

excellent point.

[urbanlibertarian]

If people gravitate towards more urban living and mass transit voluntarily, that's great.  That's what has happened in big cities.  I live downtown because it's the lifestyle I freely chose.  I just don't think the government should push people into lifestyles they don't prefer.  Let things happen freely, voluntarily and naturally.  Resist the temptation to dictate how people live.  It's Independence Day, baby.

[thelakelander]

^Then you should hate our government.  We've been forced into a lifestyle of sprawl in this community for over five decades, due to local government enforced laws and planning that facilitates sprawl.  What you see today in Jax did not happen freely, voluntarily or naturally.

Anyway, I agree that we should force people to live a certain way.  People should have a choice.  Right now (in Jacksonville) those who love sustainability and urbanism, don't have much of a choice.

[urbanlibertarian]

Hate is too strong a word but I dislike and disagree with government restrictions on density and building height and parking requirements.  I think they needlessly hamper development and growth in urban areas like downtown, Springfield, San Marco and Brooklyn.  It's the suburban majority dictating to the sustainable urbanist minority.  I don't think we have to replace suburban with urban or vice versa.  Let's have both and let individuals decide for themselves.

[Ocklawaha]

I bet the entire system of JTA's could be fare free for a few years, for less than the cost of adding a pair of HOV lanes on I-95 or JTB or some other such highway. 

Ock, is there any way we can access this information (as far as how much revenue JTA buses take in/how many riders per route, etc)?

This is just a quick check in from my new pad in St. Johns County (Urban Living - Colombian Style).
Nothing is really hooked up yet so I'll be missing for a few more days.

JTA, through Mike Miller, could supply you with the exact numbers. Meanwhile the national average numbers for city bus transit is 75% of cost is labor, 25% of expense is covered by the fare box.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

I think if we had a free transit system, more people would ride it.  If more people were riding it, we could increase service.  If we could increase service, even more people would ride it, and it could snowball from there.

if the system was frree, where would the funds come from to increase service?

[Ocklawaha]

I think if we had a free transit system, more people would ride it.  If more people were riding it, we could increase service.  If we could increase service, even more people would ride it, and it could snowball from there.

if the system was frree, where would the funds come from to increase service?

Certainly JTA could not continue as an annual appropriation, we would need a dedicated source backed by a solid revenue stream with a fixed budget. Another thought is ask JTA to go to a 6 month test with a flat .25 cent fare on ALL transit, all of the time. Another idea? .25 cent weekends (this could give us a longer term picture if we threw in Friday). It costs just as much to carry 5 people around at 1.00 each as it would to carry 20 at a quarter, and what effect would THAT have on the local roads? How much you want to bet they wouldn't lose a dime?

OCKLAWAHA

[fpteditors]

The bank bailouts are in large part sprawl bailouts. Many of the worst underwater mortgages are houses built in the desert accessible by motor vehicle only. How to pay for free public transit? Easy. Stop just 1 oil war. You could have free transit with red carpets and chandeliers. Free transit has been implemented in several municipalities for 60 basis points of tax. People should not wait for the federal government, it is controlled by oil, auto, and sprawl interests.

[tufsu1]

Here's an article on making transit "free" in New York City

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2009/07/03/how-driving-a-car-into-manhattan-costs-160/