The Rest of the State attends Federal Rail Rollout Meet, But Not Jacksonville!

[mtraininjax]

What about if I live in Macon or Valdosta and I want to get to Atlanta or Jacksonville?   Will AirTran get me to either destination?  With rail, the stops along a route can be just as important as the end points.

Sure, but getting to Jacksonville from Orlando takes you through 3 stops and more than 3 hours. The only persons who stop that often in a car are those with small bladders. Most people can make that same trip in a car in less than 2 hours. Same deal with the Macon, Valdosta to Atlanta or Jax.

If you live in Macon or Valdosta, you probably don't want to go to either city either.

[Lunican]

So now you are making excuses for AirTran?

[mtraininjax]

Of course not, but no airlines, that I can see that service jacksonville received a bailout of 1 billion bucks last year and all the airlines have shareholders, while Amtrak has doormats, you and me and the idiots in DC.

Sell off Amtrak and let it live or die on its own, real capitalism.

[Steve]

A few points:

1.  The airlines are serving a different market than amtrak will, in my opinion.  If I need to get from Jacksonville to LA, I probably will fly.  However, If I need to get from Jacksonville to Orlando or Miami, I'd consider Rail if it was offered to me.

2.  Let's not pretend the aviation industry is not subsidized.

3.  Since fuel WILL go up (does anyone REALLY doubt me here), rail has proven over and over to be more economical and efficient.

4.  Should we require every transit system to be self sufficient.

5.  Rail is (IMO) best utilized for those mid major markets.  From Jacksonville, fly me to Fayetteville, NC.  Good luck.  90 minutes before the flight, 1 hour flight to Atlanta, 90 minute connection, 90 minute flight to Fayetteville, 30 minutes to retrieve bags.  I can take Amtrak for about $70, and it would take the same amount of time.  Plus, Amtrak is better positioned to deal with holiday travel ebbs and flows.  Yes, Fayetteville is a small market, but there are a lot of them out there that people need to get to (especially in my line of work).  In addition, they offer a lot of discounts, such as children, etc.

I am certainly not an Amtrak expert, and I am a loyal Delta customer (I'm a Medallion Frequent Flyer with them), but they both have their place.  Amtrak has been mismanaged for a LONG time, but that doesn't mean get rid of them.

[Steve]

Most people can make that same trip in a car in less than 2 hours.

You apparently drive a LOT faster than both me and the guy at MapQuest who knows how long it takes to get everywhere in america.

And BTW, apparently that road that you took to orlando was free, right?

[Lunican]

Of course not, but no airlines, that I can see that service jacksonville received a bailout of 1 billion bucks last year and all the airlines have shareholders, while Amtrak has doormats, you and me and the idiots in DC.

Sell off Amtrak and let it live or die on its own, real capitalism.

Real capitalism? The government built the airports, built the roads to the airports, operates air traffic control, and is responsible for security and the airlines pay for what they use via fees.

With real capitalism, the airlines would have to lay out the capital to build the infrastructure, pay the interest on the loans, then hope they can make their money back over the next few decades. All while charging $59 for a seat.

[mtraininjax]

Amtrak has been mismanaged for a LONG time, but that doesn't mean get rid of them.

Good points, not sure about Fayetteville, but if I had a choice between driving and taking Amtrak to Miami, I'd drive every time. Amtrak takes 9 hours from Jax to Miami. No need that it takes you to lakeland then down to Miami from halfway across the state. It is what it is. Again, Jax to Orlando is 3 hours versus 2 in a car, if that many.

Not looking to get rid of Amtrak, just make them self-sufficient. Live or die on their own revenue. Try it, it is a refreshing bit of capitalism. Its the basis of life in America, yet amtrak is the most socialistic transportation system in America.

If we are scared about GM getting 20 billion and now another 30 billion, what lesson does that teach us for the future of Amtrak? If we are going to spend 1 billion on additional funding, what number of jobs are created for that 1 billion of funding? We keep losing 600,000 jobs per month, how many of those are being replaced by Amtrak's funding and new jobs?

50 billion for a smalle GM, with fewer workers, its a heckuva lesson for us to have to swallow, but so is keeping a dying business on the american taxpayer tab since the mid 70s. When does it end? Why expand something that has yet to live off its own revenue?

[Lunican]

Why expand something that has yet to live off its own revenue?

Interstates?

[mtraininjax]

Real capitalism? The government built the airports, built the roads to the airports, operates air traffic control, and is responsible for security and the airlines pay for what they use via fees.

With real capitalism, the airlines would have to lay out the capital to build the infrastructure, pay the interest on the loans, then hope they can make their money back over the next few decades. All while charging $59 for a seat.

Please ask Amtrak to pick me up at my door step, so that I can bypass the use of the local roads, local transportation systems, yes, subsidized by the feds, but also through a federal gas tax, a state gas tax and a local gas tax. I think I pay enough in local taxes for the roads I use to get me to my 59 dollar flight.

I seem to remember the feds built all the rail stations too, all transportation in America is a racket, its all taxed and double-taxed, but some of it is more fair than others.

When was the last time Amtrak paid back any of the yearly subsidies?

[mtraininjax]

Interstates?

Your point?

[Steve]

Not looking to get rid of Amtrak, just make them self-sufficient. Live or die on their own revenue. Try it, it is a refreshing bit of capitalism. Its the basis of life in America, yet amtrak is the most socialistic transportation system in America.

Again, should we privatize the MTA in New York and the CTA in Chicago, and let them live or die?  Then when MTA dies, figure out how New York City should deal with the extra 7.8 million car trips per day?

[mtraininjax]

Again, should we privatize the MTA in New York and the CTA in Chicago, and let them live or die?  Then when MTA dies, figure out how New York City should deal with the extra 7.8 million car trips per day?

Those are issues in New York and Chicago for their citizens to decide.

My point is that people here want to expand Amtrak, which received the largest subsidy it has ever received, again for another consecutive year. Never lives on its own revenues, but it follows a socialistic pattern in the government to bail out dysfunctional transportation systems.

Money does not grow on trees, and while the government is printing more and more money every day, that money in our pockets loses more and more value. At some point it has to stop.

[Ocklawaha]

author=mtraininjax link=topic=5094.msg79751#msg79751 date=1243567156]
Did they get a 1 BILLION dollar handout last year? And have they had subsidies every year from the Congress? Sure they had the 9/11 help, but they paid it back, and they are still flying and finding ways to grow their revenue.  The 274 million loss was mostly due to fuel prices rising and they lost 450 million due to fuel. Did Amtrak see the same increase?

Your right Mtrain, Airlines didn't get a Billion dollars last year, they got 28,455,000,000. (USDOT 2008) and NO they haven't and never will pay it back, we don't even ask them to. You do realize that before the huge 20%+ increases in Amtrak ridership, every Amtrak ticket was subsidized about $32 dollars, and EVERY airline ticket $38 dollars! In fact if one goes to the USDOT or the National Transportation database, you'll see that SOME airline tickets are subsidized as much as $500 dollars under the "Essential Air Program". Now if you want to keep bitching, ask yourself why you and I are paying nearly $500 bucks for some guy to fly into Minot ND, when the EMPIRE BUILDER breaks even, is headed toward profit, and Minot is one of the most patronized stops on the prairie?

Don't sweat the small stuff MTrain, anybody that hates children and dogs can't be all bad...

OCKLAWAHA

[mtraininjax]

Ock, welcome to the debate, I have no idea where you pull the numbers, but they seem off the wall, just as the light rail props do.

Come back to me when we see passenger rail actually reporting results to shareholders. Until then, your on the snooze button.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, welcome to the debate, I have no idea where you pull the numbers, but they seem off the wall, just as the light rail props do.

Come back to me when we see passenger rail actually reporting results to shareholders. Until then, your on the snooze button.

Oh damn MTrain, I bet you say that to all of the boys. I'm going to miss that little freckle of yours, and just when I was starting to get cozy with you!

OCKLAWAHA