Peyton priority shifting to downtown, riverfront development

[Ocklawaha]

Preserve the fountain at all costs, yes, MTrain, people have come to the fountain for years just for a look at one of the most photogenic sites in all of urban America. A search of any internet photo site will unleash endless photos of Jacksonville from that vantage point. It's a damn shame that they closed the observation deck over the pumps.

MOSH would be a great site for a Aquarium, or better yet, "MARINELAND AQUARIUM AT JACKSONVILLE." (Play off a historic site that was completely destroyed but holds millions of memories to generations... Yes I know it has reopened, but not as the aquarium it once was - THAT part COULD BE in JACKSONVILLE!

The MOSH building even with the additions is one of the worst designed buildings in the history of history museums. When it was first built it didn't even have a "cannon door" (ie: a door large enough to bring in a real vintage cannon or field piece).  The little hex wings screw the whole thing into a maze of tight spaces. Just as a for example: The Oklahoma Museum of Science and Industry OMSI, is about the size of two Prime Osbourne exhibit spaces. So wide open you could fly an airplane through the darn place. Why are we so primitive that our best history or science museum looks like a phone booth collection next to OKLAHOMA CITY'S.

Both MOSH and the exhibit floor of the Prime Osbourne are the best locations in Florida for Jacksonville to practice it's passion for DYNAMITE!  BOOM = AMTRAK, BOOM 2 = AQUARIUM! Easy math.

The following is for friend STJR, and anyone else violating the rules of MJ's Transit Geek on line.


THIS is a Trolley...


THIS is a Potato Chip Truck...

...and...


THIS is a Potato Chip Truck - Thinks - It's - A - Trolley, aka: JTA'S PCT TROLLEY. "PCT"= Potato Chip Truck


OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

The following is for friend STJR, and anyone else violating the rules of MJ's Transit Geek online.

Say, what Ock?  I don't support the $ky-high-way but what has that have to do with streetcars and trolleys which I both support?  I have never commented, that I recall, about the JTA trolley being a substitute for any of these.  How was your Saturday night?  I think its left you a bit off today.  Get better soon. 

[thelakelander]

mtraininjax is the huge faux potato chip truck supporter.

[stjr]

The JEA parcel has always been envisioned to have broad, public space on the river as part of any future development.  And although it's a little presumptuous, it does appear that the shipyards property may be back in city ownership.  Already, LandMar has spent millions on the bulkhead and riverwalk extention, which will provide riverfront access.  The question for both properties is how to maximize public space on the river, while generating long-term private development that adds to our tax base.  Jacksonville has a 40-acre Metro Park on the river.  We have a 14-acre Friendship Park on the river.  Add to that public space at JEA and shipyards, connected by a vast riverwalk, and that will be a spectacular benefit to residents and visitors alike. 

Adam, this is great news for the future of Jax if the mayor and the administration is leaning this way.  While I have been a vocal critic of the Courthouse design not going vertical, I will gladly trade off that issue for getting this accomplished.  The Courthouse can be torn down in 50 or 60 years but this land will endure FOREVER.

Thanks for participating in this forum and having a thick skin to absorb some arrows.  To echo Vicupstate, engaging people in a rational debate is healthy for the community and I support your efforts to participate in same.  Most posters here may not agree with the City or each other on many things, but I believe most are sincere in advocating what they think is best for Jacksonville.  I know you and the Mayor feel the same way.

[downtownparks]

Lake, with the sites proximity to the Skyway, it ties in very nicely to the Omni, and the new Hotel and parking at Kings Station. A simple covered portion of the riverwalk between a hypothetical convention center and the hotel across Main St would suffice, and be cheaper than building a skyway over Main.

You are walking distance from Hyatt, The Landing, and East Bay Street.

I also have to say, if we can recreate the iconic fountain into a well designed center, but with updated pumps and lighting. Im not for simply ripping the fountain out, but it was done as part of something that really did something special for downtown, I have a hard time being against it.

Simply ripping it out to redo the park is not an option, IMO. Redoing it as part of something bigger, however, is positive for the city, and the park.

[thelakelander]

Lake, with the sites proximity to the Skyway, it ties in very nicely to the Omni, and the new Hotel and parking at Kings Station. A simple covered portion of the riverwalk between a hypothetical convention center and the hotel across Main St would suffice, and be cheaper than building a skyway over Main.

The skyway connection should not be directly relied upon for the hotel connection because it doesn't run 24/7.  The best and most successful convention centers typically have a convention center hotel directly adjacent and attached to them.  The ones that don't are typically in search of bringing one in.  Although the nearest skyway station is a block a way, the fact that there would be no convention center hotel directly attached to it would be a negative factor, in regards to competing for events with facilities in peer cities.  My view is, if we're going to make the investment in a new center, it needs to be something that puts us in a superior position to the competition.  With that said, a sizable hotel directly attached to it is a must.

When I take my road trip at the end of this week, I'll make sure to get images of the convention center environments in the various cities I'll be in. 

City list here: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5112.15.html

[stjr]

A convention center well connected to mass transit is great.  But, in a city the size of Jacksonville, I think most attendees for local and regional events will be wedded to their cars for years to come.  Locals will continue to demand on-site parking.  Regional visitors arriving by car will demand on-site parking or some mode of connection 24/7 by mass transit from any hotels they may be staying at.  If we can't provide mass transit from the convention center to several hotels with thousands of potential rooms (I don't see that coming anytime soon), I don't see how we get around a massive dedicated parking facility or lot.  Witness Orlando or Savannah.

If the convention center needs its own parking, the amount of land needed , even for a garage, goes up significantly. I believe that narrows the options quickly and would eliminate the MOSH site which is hemmed in.  The JEA/School Board site would be far better if we decided the Convention Center should be on that side of the river.   It would also have better road access if the DOT built exits from I-95 which runs along side it to that area, not to mention the nearby Beach Roads and US 1.  We could run a street car loop from the site, down Hendricks, through San Marco shopping, up San Marco Blvd., and back across Mary Street and River Place Blvd.  Such a loop would access several hotels, lots of restaurants, MOSH, the fountain, the Riverwalk, and San Marco shops.  It would also intersect the $ky-high-way for those wanting to go Downtown (or they could take a river taxi).

I also think a Convention Center needs truck parking for massive deliveries and for exhibitors with big set ups and/or outdoor displays.  Some visitors may also come in RV's for certain events.  More parking is also needed for groups arriving in tour buses from other cities and/or outlying hotels.

[Ocklawaha]

THOUGHTS: Skyway from the Central Station to the Convention Center - INTERNAL STATION - SECOND FLOOR - would be killer good. Also SKYWALKS or COVERED WALKS that would wisk passengers from adjacent buildings into the Skyway stations all along the Convention Route would be very beneficial.



Southside streetcar is not going to fly unless we come up with a streetcar river crossing. It's true that a small car shed (such as the San Marco Station buildings) and a circulator route would be a great fit in that sector, but a simple Skyway extension to Atlantic at The FEC RY might be cheaper and better fit, plus it would add the new Hilton to the mix, and the inaccessable, "mother of all parking garages."

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Speaking of that, why don't we have some restaurants and bars front directly onto the Riverwalk with outdoor bands staged every 1000 feet or so.  Eat dinner, walk the walk, spend the day at RAM and take in an evening or matineee show at the Times Union Center.  See a movie or show at the Florida Theater.  Take the free trolley to the Ritz for more music and fun.  City garages and surface lots should be opened for a few dollars.  Run the Downtown Trolleys in a loop on Friday and Saturday nights to increase mobility.  Add a few extra police to improve the sense of security and direct extra traffic.

Never said you supported it, but you certainly named it and suggested it's expansion...

But of course, 5 SOCO's later, I'm just messing with you! SMILE!

See STJR, I'm not half as think as you stoned I am.

Join my one man crusade to stamp out calling PCT'S "trolleys"... They are not even trolley buses! Calling and PROMOTING these damn things "trolleys" makes our whole community look Ignorant, and as ignorance gets started it knows no bounds.
I'd love to "Run the Downtown Trolleys;" the ones you mentioned right off a barge and into the Atlantic Ocean, they'd make beautiful reefs - but their looks might cause a Jelly Fish bloom.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Speaking of that, why don't we have some restaurants and bars front directly onto the Riverwalk with outdoor bands staged every 1000 feet or so.  Eat dinner, walk the walk, spend the day at RAM and take in an evening or matineee show at the Times Union Center.  See a movie or show at the Florida Theater.  Take the free trolley to the Ritz for more music and fun.  City garages and surface lots should be opened for a few dollars.  Run the Downtown Trolleys in a loop on Friday and Saturday nights to increase mobility.  Add a few extra police to improve the sense of security and direct extra traffic.

Never said you supported it, but you certainly named it and suggested it's expansion...

But of course, 5 SOCO's later, I'm just messing with you! SMILE!

See STJR, I'm not half as think as you stoned I am.

Join my one man crusade to stamp out calling PCT'S "trolleys"... They are not even trolley buses!

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, its the weekend and I'll cut you some slack here.  Mentioning the downtown trolleys in this context was merely working with the present infrastructure.  Substitute the real thing or street cars is fine with me - we'll just be waiting for another decade.  This was a quick fix, not a crusade.

[Ocklawaha]

STJR, Thanks for the slack, God knows I might hang myself with it someday... Good to have one more aboard my TRANVIA (TRAM) that knows a PCT when they see one!

"Save Jacksonville, scrap a PCT today" (No offense intended to STJR or FRITO LAY Corp).

OCKLAWAHA

[Omarvelous09]

typical. growth is great, but at what expense?
SAVE FRIENDSHIP FOUNTAIN! 

[Charles Hunter]

According to Ron Littlepage today, Ron Barton and the JEDC are still pursuing a plan to rip out Friendship Fountain, and replace it with interactive kiddie sprays.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/ron_littlepage/2009-06-14/story/friendship_fountain_and_the_riverfront_facelift

Last week, Barton showed me conceptual plans - with a heavy emphasis on conceptual - that could be a way to reshape the park.

Instead of one giant fountain, there would be several interactive water features that would still shoot streams of water into the air but also invite people - mostly children - to cool off on a hot summer day.

Think the fountain in the Landing's courtyard but on a bigger scale.

There is something good in that plan:

And an addition to the Museum of History and Science would reorient MOSH toward the river and park instead of facing away from them as the museum does now.

But this quote from Littlepage shows he is falling back into his trend of being so thrilled that people of power will share with him, that whatever dreck they spew forth must be manna:

One hurdle is Friendship Fountain itself. Many people are attached to it, and that's understandable. But what if something better replaced it?

A "water feature" spraying water for children to play in, is NOT "something better."  Heck, every time I put my good old oscillating sprinkler out on my lawn, I have a water feature that children can (and do) play in!

[vicupstate]

What is it that Peyton has in his head that friendship fountain has to go?   How many THOUSANDS of pictures are taken, many used by the Chamber of Commerce and the like, from the Fountain vantage point with the fountain in the image?  It's an icon.  Why destroy it?   

  Having something that is kid oriented is fine, as long as it is part of an overall package that has something for EVERYONE.  This is a key centerpiece of the DT , it should appeal to EVERYONE. Teenagers on a date should want to enjoy the area just as much as an older couple, or a group of college guys out for a night at a sports bar.  If it is just for kids and their parents it will be be a failure and a waste of a awesome public resource.  Isn't Kids Kampus the ideal place for something like this?   

[tufsu1]

I see nothing wrong with having an open discussion about the future of the park...and the discussion should include options for the fountain....this park could once again be an amzing public space, especially if MOSH gets re-oriented to face the park and river.

As for the Kids Kampus comment above, now maybe folks will understand why the idea of moving it here made some sense.