Federal stimulus funds to demolish historic train station?

[thelakelander]

Detroit is a special case.  Without seeing the city in person, its hard to see why many of their old grand buildings won't make it.  They have 135 square miles of buildings just like this and larger, that have been abandoned and left open to the elements for decades.  With nearly 1 million less people than what they had in 1950, they will unfortunately lose a lot more.

[CS Foltz]

Your correct lake! Less will mean even less in the future.............Jacksonville will be going in that direction if the current Administration continues on the path they have chosen......no vision and no plan equals a downturn which we may not be able to recover from!

[Dog Walker]

I notice that all of those old stations had office towers connected to them above the concourses.  Where they hotels or just rental offices for people who wanted to be close to the transportation hubs?  Was there enough railroad business to need such big buildings?

[Ocklawaha]

Buffalo, NY Central Station


Detroit, Michigan Central Station

Lake a smashing new rumor is circulating all through the passenger rail industry. While I'll believe it when I see it, it IS very interesting.

New York City tore down the great headhouse of Penn Station and replaced the upper structure with Madison Square Gardens. The depot, if you can call it that, is just the 4 levels BELOW the old station (yes, there were four floors of boarding tracks, though not all 4 were ever used). There has been mounting outcry from the citizens to replace the gardens with a REAL station once again. At least we know the public outcry part is true!

This is where it gets either funny or weird, depending on your point of view... The talk is, certain New York investors have looked at the Michigan Central Station in Detroit, and plan to remove it block by block. Supposedly it will be reconstructed (like the London Bridge was) over the tracks at Penn Station. Yeah, it's too fantastic to really believe, but it has been done before.

Frankly, if I were in New York City, and this had a shred of truth to it, I'd be looking at Buffalo's abandoned giant, it's much closer. I'm also certain that the MTA in New York has both the locomotives (diesel) and flat cars to pull this off using dedicated equipment. Chances are, unless Trump or some similar high rollers are involved, we'll probably never hear anymore about this subject...  But the "what if" is a killer!


On a side note, the loss of Beaver Street Tower and the Myrtle Ave Interlocking tower, is inexcusable. This photo shows the early day inside workings of the towers. In later years it was done with push buttons. Photo: Mine.

OCKALWAHA

[Dog Walker]

Ock, did those big levers control the switches directly with cables or something or were they electric switches of some sort.  It they worked with cable across the whole yard that dude was STRONG!

[Dog Walker]

Funny about moving an old station into New York.  When I looked at the Detroit station my first thought was how it would make a great courthouse for Jax.  Doubt if it could be relocated for $350 million though.  Too bad, it is a much better looking building than what we are going to have.

[Ocklawaha]

Tower in Illinois, note the swith rods along side the track.


Yes, it's a model, but it WORKS. This is a carbon copy of what a typical control board looked like, note that all of this is tied into the signals. In the case of yard or station trackage, those signals were on a bridge, or were dwarfs.


Jacksonville Terminal style dwarf signal, in congested area's these won't swipe your man off the side of a rail car! Our Skyway, which has manual controls under the locked panel in the dash, has a system of Dwarfs.


Okay, this is my club! Another model, but the signal bridge just ahead of the train, is fully functional

Ock, did those big levers control the switches directly with cables or something or were they electric switches of some sort.  It they worked with cable across the whole yard that dude was STRONG!

100% manual, but it wasn't done with wire (the levers must push or pull, so wire is out of the question). Long "switch rods" tied the levers to the tower operators. At ground level sometimes a dozen or more rods would run side by side, before ducking under to the next track switch. Generally the rods were covered under sheet metal housings, and the Maintenance boys kept everything soaked in grease. The average old independent switch stand usually had/has a handle on it that weighs in at 60-90 pounds, imagine that, added to 1/4 mile of heavy steel rods. Strong men might even be putting it mildly. After push buttons for electric switch motors replaced the old lever system, it was just a matter of time until the Central Traffic Control took command in the digital age. Today the track can be lined for CSX from a remote office complex. Meanwhile over on the FEC or Norfolk Southern, those same type of tracks are done with digital remote switching, from corporate operations in Norfolk, or New Smyrna Beach. Cities all over the globe have saved their old towers, but the lack of brain activity in love starved Jacksonville, has cost America's 5Th largest Rail Center, and the historic hub of all of Florida, any chance to preserve our transportation past. Frankly, the maritime museum in the phone booth across the river in downtown, is suffering the same fate.... Our museum of the BLUE ANGELS, the one we don't have, is another dropped ball.

OCKLAWAHA

[Timkin]

It is truly a shame. Someday, with the mentality that has long run this city, we may see our own terminal come down.  We as a nation put little regard to our historic buildings, compared to other Countries/Cities.    A portion of this building (the Detroit Terminal) has an amazing similarity to our own...that being the lower level part.  What a shame.  O well, I better keep my mouth shut or I ll be slammed again for being a historic building hugger :)Seems if they have 3.5 Million, that money should be used towards saving, not tearing it down.  We do not build buildings with this type of durability any longer.  This is part of the throw-away world we live in ,that I personally despise.  I know Detroit is suffering... But to raze something as beautiful as that forever should be criminal.

[Timkin]

Funny about moving an old station into New York.  When I looked at the Detroit station my first thought was how it would make a great courthouse for Jax.  Doubt if it could be relocated for $350 million though.  Too bad, it is a much better looking building than what we are going to have.

EXACTLY, DW!    Id far rather see this building revived, than what is being assembled as we speak downtown.  Did we REALLY need that Courthouse?

[reednavy]

Yeah, we kinda did need a new courthouse. The current one is over 50 years old and is costing a lot of money to keep up.

[Timkin]

Ok....let me put it another way... Did we need a new Courthouse that was this sprawling and expensive to build?  Are we going to turn into another Detroit? or have we already?

[reednavy]

Ok....let me put it another way... Did we need a new Courthouse that was this sprawling and expensive to build?  Are we going to turn into another Detroit? or have we already?

Ok, how does a courthouse tie into a Detroit comparison?

[Timkin]

Maybe it does not.. but a reduction in working population in the Downtown area, and many of the buildings razed for surface/ground parking.  Sorry.. no offense intended.. I just wondered if spending the money on that massive Courthouse was wise at this juncture?(thinking outloud mainly)  Sorry.

[CS Foltz]

Timkin..........I'm with you on this one! I still have not quite figured out just how John Boy is preparing to pay the additional money beyond the voter approved $190 Million? What is the cost projected to this point $350 Million Dollars? City of Jacksonville is $58 Million Dollars in the hole next budget cycle last I heard and no matter what set of books John Boy uses, we are going to be short plain and simple! If that little bugger had to pay for things out of his pocket, I would bet he would be a lot more frugal, efficient and cost conscience!

[stjr]

On a side note, the loss of Beaver Street Tower and the Myrtle Ave Interlocking tower, is inexcusable.

Ock, you should investigate this.  I believe the Beaver Street Tower "disappeared" in the dead of night somewhere around 2000 to 2001 when FDOT replaced the Beaver Street Viaduct.  I don't think it was in the way but I heard CSX was able to rearrange some of its trackage in conjunction with FDOT engineering the bridge.  Maybe they covered for each other.

Would this building have been covered by Jax's Historic Building rules?  LOL, I wonder what building is after seeing how many get torn down anyway.  One would hope someone within CSX would have a little sentimentality for its industry's past and spoken up to save some of these buildings.  Railroads sure don't mind letting oil, creosote, and other waste along the tracks sit there forever.