What Business Would Benefit From New Convention Center and Amtrak Back Downtown?

[thelakelander]

No doubt.  It would be in everyone's best interest.

[mtraininjax]

  You have to be dreaming if you think ATL will drink the Kool-aid and expand their rail services. The old Southern station on Peachtree is fine for their needs, with a train on the way to and from New Orleans and DC. Why would they shell out BILLIONS when Marta is also cutting back service, due to budget issues? Old Union Station is gone, as the Fed leveled it years ago, let it go....

I think the Salvation Army is close to our existing Convention Center, so the BUMS would mimic downtown Atlanta and have a nice place to beg people for money. Should be a very nice scene, ripe with lots of papers and TV the day a BUM gets arrested for begging for money from people who were too cheap to fly, who took the train, essentially, in the US, one step up from BUS travel.

[mtraininjax]

well, if the City would commit to moving the CC then I bet JTA would love to develop the JRTC on one parcel around the Jacksonville Terminal.....still have the Skyway on Bay St, but that can be worked around.

The only way the JTA can grow is through future sales taxes. Are you willing to pay another cent sales tax for something that will attract marginal people and pay on it for 50 years? Some people would say taxes are too high, but its OK to give JTA money that maybe a few people will use, with no one with concrete studies that people will actually use the system?

Anyone seen empty buses? When the buses are filled, demand is there for rail, till then, keep dreaming the dream!

[thelakelander]

^I'd prefer JTA to use the current $100 million in BJP money they are sitting on to improve their system before we start talking about raising taxes.  We should also be looking at ways to take advantage of federal stimulus dollars for mass transit (including Amtrak), if it can be used to enhance our local offerings.

[vicupstate]

The only way the JTA can grow is through future sales taxes.

No. Actually, all that has to happen is that the funds being stockpiled to build yet another 'outer beltway' that will be totally negative in it's impact, instead be spent on alternative infrastructure (rail) that will counteract sprawl rather than create more of it.   

See Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Mexico etc. for examples.

[fsujax]

Finding capital funds isnt really the problem....the true and harder question is finding a stream of revenue to cover all the operating and maintenance costs of any transit system.

Some people you will never be able to convince for the need of transit, they refuse to see how fixed guideway transit (rail) has dramatic impacts on landuse and the good it does. It is true we can't convince everybody to ride transit (rail or bus) but people should at least have an option. In Jacksonville those options are severely limited.

[Jason]

Ock, here you go!



An idea of what a convention center could look like sitting atop the Landing and Hyatt parking area...

[Jason]

The other idea is to replace the old courthouse with a new center.  More room and a direct beneficial expansion to the Bay Street entertainment district.  Throw in an anchor hotel on the site of the existing Annex and the strip is complete.








View looking down Bay Street.

[thelakelander]

Finding capital funds isnt really the problem....the true and harder question is finding a stream of revenue to cover all the operating and maintenance costs of any transit system.

Some people you will never be able to convince for the need of transit, they refuse to see how fixed guideway transit (rail) has dramatic impacts on landuse and the good it does. It is true we can't convince everybody to ride transit (rail or bus) but people should at least have an option. In Jacksonville those options are severely limited.

Annual operating budget of selected streetcar systems:

$4.9 million (FY 2008) - Portland Streetcar (4 mile system) - 12-15 minute headways*

$3.9 million (FY 2005) - Memphis Streetcar (7 mile system) - 5-10 minute headways

$2.0 million (FY 2008) - Seattle South Lake Union Streetcar (1.3 mile system) - 15 minute headways*

$2.5 million (FY 2008) - Tacoma Link Streetcar (1.6 mile system) - 10 minute headways*

$2.5 million (FY 2006) - Tampa TECO Streetcar (3 mile system) - 15 minute headways

$650,000 (FY 2007) - Little Rock River Rail Streetcar (3.4 mile system) - 25 minute headways

$335,000 (FY 2008) - Kenosha Streetcar (1.9 mile system) - 15-17 minute headways

*- Modern streetcar systems have higher annual O&M costs.


Annual O&M costs per mile:

$1.23 million (FY 2008) - Portland Streetcar

$557,143 (FY 2005) - Memphis Streetcar**

$1.54 million (FY 2008) - Seattle South Lake Union Streetcar

$1.65 million (FY 2008) - Tacoma Link Streetcar

$833,333 (FY 2006) - Tampa TECO Streetcar**

$191,176 (FY 2007) - Little Rock River Rail Streetcar**

$176,316 (FY 2008) - Kenosha Streetcar**

**-Heritage Streetcar system annual O&M costs tend to be significantly cheaper per mile.

link to data: http://www.fortworthgov.com/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Miscellaneous_(template)/Peer%20City%20Handout%20for%20distribution.pdf


Message to Jacksonville

There's nothing new under the Sun.  Set a budget and attempt to stick to it by developing an initial "no-frills" segment that can operate in a similar fashion to existing systems with low O&M cost.

Let's assume we spend $50 of the $100 million to construct a 4-mile initial heritage rail corridor between DT and Riverside. Let's also assume we offer a Little Rock style service with a goal to cut our annual O&M costs down to $200k/mile or an overall cost of $1 million per year.  If we set aside another $15 million of the BJP funds for O&M costs, we could potentially run a system, with no fare charge for 15 years before another funding source would have to be discovered.

Charge a fare, offer sponsorships, special event rental and advertising opportunities, then combine that profit with the $15 million set aside and you could stretch the dollar more.  With a little creative thinking, we could easily pay for two decades worth of a decent streetcar system with a portion of money we already have in hand.  This will give the community a chance to see the benefits of rail, plus this investment could be potentially be leveraged to pull in federal dollars needed to continue building out our long term integrated transit plan.

[thelakelander]

^If money is still a concern, take a page for Dallas and go with volunteer labor.

http://www.napta.net/actioncenter/resources/publications/streetcars/07.asp#dallastx

In the end, if we really want to get rail started here, we can do it with money we already have in hand.

[BridgeTroll]

Wow Jason... Looks great!  Talk about economic stimulas.  New Courthouse, tear down old and replace with convention center and hotel, Convert Prime Osborne back to an Amtrak station, move bus depot to same area creating the transit hub, add a streetcar.

Just dreamin here... How about moving the police and jailhouse?  Perhaps they could go next to the new courthouse?

[fsujax]

Lakelander, I am sure JTA is looking at those options as well. Running a major rail system is not cheap no matter how its being paid for. Just thinking realistically.

[fsujax]

Can JTA use BJP money to cover operating costs? Sounds like a legal question.

[thelakelander]

We'll never know if we don't try.  If Peyton can get council to take all of that money and throw it into port and courthouse improvements, I'd say anything is possible at this point.  However, it will have to be packaged and sold to council and the community as part of a plan to implement an integrated regional transit system.  In any event, its definitely better than spending it all on ROW only. 

[thelakelander]

Lakelander, I am sure JTA is looking at those options as well. Running a major rail system is not cheap no matter how its being paid for. Just thinking realistically.

The underlying factor is, we have to start somewhere and build up from there.  We'll never reach the point that we'll find the answer to paying for +90 miles of rail without getting our feet wet first.