Proposed Super Bowl Legacy: Downtown Gathering & Event Mega-Site

[stjr]

I think one could honestly debate what the boundaries of "downtown" are for most cities.  While planners may have a technical definition, residents and others may have another.  I think the relationship of the properties I am focused on in Jax are functionally located relative to our downtown in much the same way as the examples I cited and I stand by my comparisons.
 
As to William Penn, I obtained my info from a web site I can't relocate at the moment.  I also looked at several sites purporting to list urban/city parks.  If the info wasn't as precise as it could be, I apologize. Here is the official web site for Fairmount Park which makes the connection between William Penn's plans and the beginnings of today's current park:

Center Square

In the city grid devised by William Penn and Penn's surveyor, Thomas Holme, Center Square was the largest of the original squares; at ten acres, it was intended as a future site for public buildings.

But early residents, ignoring Penn's well-laid plans, clustered near the Delaware River, and for almost two centuries Center Square was far from central.

In the 18th century, it remained mostly an undeveloped lot, cut into four sections by Broad and High (now Market) Streets. In the late 1790s, after frightening yellow fever epidemics, the city purified the water supply by building the first public water works, with its principal facility at Center Square. Opened in 1801, the Center Square pump house was a handsome neoclassical building designed by Benjamin Latrobe and adorned with William Rush's fountain sculpture Water Nymph and Bittern. The site couldn't accommodate a growing city so within two decades, the Center Square system gave way to new water works at Fairmount. Latrobe's pump house was demolished in 1829.

As the population expanded westward, Center Square, now renamed Penn Square after the city's founder, regained the central position it had occupied in the original plan. As early as 1860, city leaders proposed offices for the site, and in 1870 the voters were asked to choose between Washington Square and Penn Square for the location of "New Public Buildings." Penn Square won handily, and construction began on the mammoth edifice that we know as City Hall....

....Center, Franklin, Logan, Rittenhouse and Washington Squares are also part of Fairmount Park. Add in the Benjamin Franklin Parkway, JFK Plaza (a.k.a. Love Park) and the Isaac D. Levy Park (Race and 17th Streets) and hopefully the parameters or our wonderful Park are becoming a little less confusing.

I must say I am surprised that the posts heretofore don't seem to fully grasp the potential of my point.  If this truly represents the thinking of "progressives" in this City, then Jax has a very steep hill to climb to a national or world city status.

[thelakelander]

Personally, I grasp the potential of your idea and the Mayor's flex space concept.  At this point, I think there are ways to still make the idea reality even if the Shipyards remained in private hands or if a certain percentage of the JEA site becomes home to infill urban development. 

For example, if the current public owned land in the entire Sports District became parkspace (ex. like something similar to Chicago's Grant Park), you would end up with something very large, impressive and unique.  Anything developed on the Shipyards site, which will include a public pier, park (at the mouth of Hogans Creek) and riverwalk, would end up being a living extension of such a space.

[BridgeTroll]

Are we leaving out the old courthouse and corresponding giant parking lot out of the discussion?  How about the clearly misplaced school board building?

[thelakelander]

Sounds like the result of not having a plan or vision for publicly owned property.

While the city should not be in charge of forcing specific types of uses on private parcels, it would be a good idea to at least have a vision (both short and long term) for its own parcels.  The planning of waterfront parks, urban historic preservation, an expanded convention center, transportation center and the county courthouse are all a huge mess because no one really knows whats going on.  This leads to inaction on the private sector side of things, which leads to a downtown that still empties out at 6pm.  If there was a plan and everyone was on the same page, it would make it easier to get from point A to B,C,D & E.  Until that happens, we'll continue to spend millions running around in circles.

[stjr]

Lake, you have my full agreement.  Where is the master plan?  What is our target?  Where is our vision?  What are our communities priorities?  We just seem to ping pong along making disjointed decisions that don't play off of or feed into each other or create civic efficiencies.  Lavilla, Better Jax, Courthouse, Convention Center, Shipyards, Skyway and other mass transit, parks, historic preservation, city street planning, educational excellence - all are examples of incomplete, disappointed, spotty, reactionary, and/or incompetent executions.

Such projects in Jax abound due to a lack of foresight, planning, perseverance, funding, community support, good 'ol boy networks, etc.  To be a success, we need a reliable PROCESS that addresses these roadblocks and successfully delivers BEST results.  Unfortunately, Jax has, during my lifetime, mostly lacked that charismatic, courageous, disciplined, pure of heart, and visionary leadership that can deliver the goods.  I don't entirely blame our leaders.  I also blame our citizenry that mostly seems to lack, or accept the absence of, the spark, imagination, desire, or drive needed to support and achieve such results.

My hope is that as Jax grows and become more cosmopolitan, we will be cross pollinated by individuals that expect and demand these things - and maybe teach us locals a new thing or two.  Hopefully, they will become part of the solution as opposed to moving away from the disappointments.  This is why PROCESS is so critical.  It provides the portal for interested citizens and their leaders to prioritize, participate and push our community forward.

[stjr]

While discussing the convention center, identifying a Downtown gathering and event mega-site should be discussed and coordinated in concert with such a move.  The two may be able to work in concert with each other.  If the convention center moved to the old courthouse site, then the Shipyards should definitely be considered for this.  It would also play well into an indoor/outdoor convention or event opportunity (like the fire fighters equipment show they once hosted or a boat show, etc.).

[vicupstate]

While I see the value in the type of space stjr is talking about, you have to keep a few things in perspective.  First, Jax does not have the population nor the population density of any of those big cities that he listed. Second, Jax is not the nation's capital or even a state capital.   Therefore the city is not a site of political protest type gatherings.  Also, Philly and Boston were the among the nation's largest and most political cities when those spaces were there.

Other than the Super Bowl, what activity would need this kind of space?

Third, between the two riverwalks, the Landing courtyard and the space that the Shipyards already has set aside for the public, those areas can accomodate several tens of thousands (Remember 40k at RAM).  Also having that many people in a linear configuration would be better in many ways (igress) than having everyone squeezed into a single 42 acre parcel.

I would suggest building the Emerald necklace that has been proposed for years now (making a green loop around DT with Hogan's Creek and McCoy's Creek joining Springfield/Klutho park). 

Do you really want to forsake millions in property taxes for the once a decade or two event like the Super Bowl?  What would the land be used for in the mean time?  Without it having multiple functions, it could have the potential to be a huge Main Street Pocket Park.

Do Tampa and San Diego and New Orleans have 100-1,000 acres set aside for when they host the SB?   

[tufsu1]

It may be a sore subject on this board, but the Mayor has identified the Kids Kampus/Met Park area for this purpose

[Ocklawaha]

The "BELOVED GREAT LEADER" (AKA: Peyton) was at the Metropolitan Park Charette. Rather then a free form think tank, he poured acid all over the project before the first crayon hit the paper.

"We need flex space, we want this mess gone... Open it up so we can achieve great things...etc..."

Every single group then dutifully filled out the maps with the Peyton "Vision", so every input was illgetamate.

STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

come on Ock, you know that is not quite true....the Mayor didn't arrive until lunch....and at least my table had already finished their concept.

Now I would agree that we were instructed that Kids Kampus could be moved elsewhere and to not feel constrained by it.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't know what he said word for word,,, But it's pretty darn close. My table and the ones I could see hadn't really come up with a drawing before the Mayors plea. Fact is, after his pep talk the entire bunch ran off the cliff like a herd of Lemmings. If the Charette is to be citizen driven with no political dictorials then the Mayor and Council should stay out and let the people speak. I figured he was up to his lovely grass field as soon as we were told the Charette was restricted to within the bounds of the park land. Had we been restricted to the Park land, AND Bay Street, you would have seen Skyway stations, Streetcar tracks and perhaps some historical museum buildings.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

The charette was restricted to just the Kids Kampus/Metropolitan park land?  So I guess there were no suggestions of making flex green space out of the parking lots surrounding the stadium?

[Ocklawaha]

That's right Lake, just within the "fence". Then the Mayor comes out with his "we want all this cleared for flex space." The Charette became Charaide.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

again, not totally true....several of us questioned the boundary restriction, making the point that the pedestrian connection across to the stadium was key to the park's gateway....the group at my table actually drew Gator Blvd as a true boulevard w/ the skyway (or streetcar) extended down it....and with the raised expressway potentially demolished! 

[Ocklawaha]

Yes your group questioned it and still drew the stadium, I believe all the others stopped at the fence. Not quite true? That is what they told us to do. In fact I was there to try and inject streetcar and Skyway into the mix and I was told we are only dealing with the park.

OCKLAWAHA