METRO Light Rail: Rail Comes to Phoenix

[thelakelander]

Jax just cannot support or even justify, at this time and in my opinion, such a rail system.

Imagine what Salt Lake City or Charlotte would look like today if that's the official position their leaders took with mass transit?  If taken as bible, what do we make of smaller communities like Kenosha, WI, Tacoma, WA and Little Rock, AK that have benefited from implementing urban streetcar systems? 

Like Houston, Phoenix jumped on board late after years of bad planning and high growth.  This is a mistake we should not attempt to repeat.  In the end, it will only cost us more, the more we make excuses and delay embracing an integrated mass transit system.

[ProjectMaximus]

surprising, heights. I didn't expect you to have that opinion. I think that your view of Jax and of rail transit are both common misconceptions, but nevertheless, interesting to here you share your opinion.

[Ocklawaha]

I love Jacksonville, and hope we do someday get something like this but I believe not soon.  I agree with the poster that said maybe in 2030 if we double our population.  Phoenix is a city of over 1,000,000 people urban/core; Our population is deceiving as the whole county is the same population, in general as the City.  Everyone keeps forgetting that Jax is really not a City of a million people or the population that we now say we have if you want to look at "pure urban."  Old city boundaries along with areas that would have been annexed since 1968 would probably field a population of 120,000 people (core/urban) if we are lucky.  Jax just cannot support or even justify, at this time and in my opinion, such a rail system.

Your perhaps right about a Phoenix Style Light Rail System. This is a longer reach, more INTERURBAN train then a streetcar.

There is a huge difference in the costs between streetcar and LRT lines. Streetcars are as much as 50,000 pounds lighter. Much cheaper to buy, and less O&M cost then buses. San Francisco has streetcars (not the cable cars) running on the "F" Castro Line, one of which is 100 years old. Where is the savings in bus transit if the FTA says 500,000 miles or 12 years for bus retirement? Also bus doesn't create an economic engine. Even without riders, streetcar systems have returned as much as 1000% or more, in new investments.

While I'd agree that we might not be able to build LRT right now, we certainly can't afford NOT to rebuild our streetcar system.

CINCINNNATI and JACKSONVILLE are featured in todays JACKSONVILLE TRANSIT BLOG:
http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/

OCKLAWAHA

[heights unknown]

I do agree with you Lake on the "official position" iteration in your post.  I do not intend to offend; I was born in Jax and lived in Jax many years until I retired from the U. S. Navy; however, in my opinion there has got be other reasons, other than the lazy short sightedness of past and present mayoral administrations, as to why Jax is always unsuccessful with it's projects, and can never make anything work in a positive light towards it's prosperity and success. 

I was living in Jax when the Landing was built, when the skyway was built, when the Jaguars came to fruition, and when various other projects and developments were a flop.  It just seems to me that there are not enough people or population to support these things when they are built, or they are half built or not built to their fullest potential. The only success, real success mind you has been the the Jacksonville Jaguars, and that is a sports franchise and not a development, urban project, residential project, etc.  Even the Jaguars are unsuccessful to a certain point in that not enough people support the team or show up at the games.

I don't know what the answer is.  The Skyway had high hopes when built; but when it was built, though I was much younger and didn't know half as much as I now know, I said to myself, "this project is not complete and it's really going nowhere."  They should have mapped out a complete plan to include outer/suburban areas and the sports complex when the skyway was planned and before it was built.  I firmly believe if it had been completed to its fullest, ridership would have been much higher, and it would have been more successful.  Poor planning for the skyway in my opinion...very poor planning. 

If we are to have Light Rail or something similar in Jax, they had better plan carefully, smartly, and thoroughly before building it, and quit putting the cart before the horse.  It appears when our leaders and others plan a certain project, they don't think it through to its fullest extent and then they build it and wonder why it is unsuccessful. 

Don't get me wrong Metro Jax forum, I want to see the very best for Jacksonville.  Hotdammit I love this City; but we (Jax) need to be more focused, goal oriented, and high visioned when planning these projects and ensure that the projects will get the maximum use from Jax's citizens and the 1.4 million metro population and other surrounding areas.  We are wasting too much time and money with these projects if we don't build them to their fullest potential and extent.

Heights Unknown

[Ocklawaha]

Couldn't have said the last paragraph better Heights Unknown. From Hollywood to White Star Lines to Disney to National Airlines to Railroad hub to Convention mecca to half built monorails to unbuilt maritime museums... Valdosta does a better job then we do. We've let EVERY ONE of these opportunitys slip from our grasp.

Except for a few trolls, I think everyone on these boards share your passion for OUR city, mine could be labeled a downright love affair.

OCKLAWAHA

[9a is my backyard]

I think everyone on these boards share your passion for OUR city, mine could be labeled a downright love affair.

OCKLAWAHA

Ahhh the sultry mistress that is Jacksonville 

[BridgeTroll]

Ahhh the sultry mistress that is Jacksonville 

[heights unknown]

Yeah, she's (Jacksonville) good, REAL good!

[aj_fresh]

Lake,

Any plans to do a feature on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in New Jersey?

[thelakelander]

The Hudson-Bergen is one of many we plan to feature in 2009 as a part of our push to get rail in Jacksonville.  I meant to try it out this past Summer but ran out of time.  Nevertheless, I did get a couple of images passing through DT Jersey City.

[aj_fresh]

I used it frequently when I lived and worked in that area. I think its a great example that features rail (NJ Transit) in Hoboken, subway (PATH Train; which could be our Skyway) and efficient uses of buses. I look forward to the feature and reliving some of my past. 

[Lunican]

Update on Phoenix Metro Rail:

Metro officials expect 26,000 boardings a day in 2009.

Shortly after opening, ridership was 33,000 passengers per day. Ridership is expected to grow to 45,000 by 2020.

Metro Rail is now working on a 37 mile extension that will be opened it phases over the next 15 years, with a 3.2 mile extension scheduled for completion in 2012.

The system will total 57 miles when complete.

Trains Magazine (Jan 2010) says, "Phoenix has joined Los Angeles, San Diego, Portland, and Minneapolis in debunking the myth that metro areas with low population density (i.e. sprawling suburbs) and rail don't mix. With a population density of 250 people per square mile, Phoenix epitomizes the car culture."

[thelakelander]

Nice quote by Trains Magazine.  That's something I'm sure we'll be using here in the next couple of months.

[Lunican]

Phoenix area light rail breaks more ridership records in April

Metro’s impressive ridership gains continue apace, the light rail transit agency reported.

April brought new records for total passengers and average weekday passengers, while four times last month more than 50,000 people boarded Metro on a single day. That had happened five times in the entire 16 months of service before April. The Diamondbacks home opener on Monday April 5 now stands as Metro’s daily record-holder, with 55,679 officially measured boardings.

Full Article:
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/lightrailblog/80262

[thelakelander]

Stop making this ridership rubbish up, Lunican.  This can't be right.  Our Jax naysayers claim this can't be done successfully in a sunbelt sprawler without first creating density and critical mass.

Like the Charlotte and Salt Lake City, I think Phoenix's experience with implementing rail is additional proof that most of Jacksonville's leaders have no idea of what they are saying when downplaying the need and positives of these systems.  Like the Landing situation, we're holding back our city on bad theory by continuing to fight and not accept reality.