Gateway Jax seeks first-round design approval for Riverfront Plaza tower

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Definitely finding myself coming around to this thinking. The recent economic development focus from the City and Chamber has been on things like "the Small Business Capital of the Southeast" and attracting industrial jobs that are then located way out by Cecil or the airport or the seaports, not on new corporate headquarters.

Hopefully getting the UF campus open and growing is a chance to start thinking about what that kind of attraction needs to look like.

There is some chicken and the egg here.

It appears that one issue for employers locating downtown is the lack of poor mass transit connecting downtown internally and to surrounding urban, suburban and outlying areas.  Many employees do not relish long driving times through congested roadways followed by the hassle and expense of paid parking garages. 

Imagine being able to be productive on your laptop or tablet while riding reliable, long hour availability, frequent headway, secure and cost effective mass transit to your job downtown.  We have nothing close to that today.  Until we do, I don't see employers being able to attract the diverse workforce they need to have offices downtown.  The recent decline of JTA is sure to further discourage employers desiring downtown offices.

The City needs to join with JTA to create a regional master plan for mass transit in NE Florida.  Not holding out a lot of hope given the disjointed connection with JTA, its mismanagement, and the lack of a master plan for even downtown.  "Master planning" and coordination seems to be foreign concept across this region.

Unlike the suburbs, businesses downtown need a continuous, reliable and robust infrastructure (security, streetscape maintenance, mass transit, public amenities, promotion, etc.) partnership with government to sustain a presence there and to justify the premium investment necessary.  Jax hasn't demonstrated that, to date.

[vicupstate]

The 'we need jobs downtown first' argument has to compete with the reality that when there were thousands more jobs Downtown, these residential projects did not follow in a big way. And what residential there was was incentivized also.   

     

[Ken_FSU]

The 'we need jobs downtown first' argument has to compete with the reality that when there were thousands more jobs Downtown, these residential projects did not follow in a big way. And what residential there was was incentivized also.

It's almost like we need a unified, long-term master plan, beginning with the end in the mind, to guide downtown incentives and strategic focus, versus a patchwork of random TIF, incentive, and transportation documents stapled together.

[thelakelander]

Lo that would certainly have helped. Haphazard implementation rarely pans out. The sooner we can get a real community vision and plan together, the better. Otherwise, expect the same. Some positive steps forward, along with some easily avoidable steps backwards.

[LadyBugJax]

Lo that would certainly have helped. Haphazard implementation rarely pans out. The sooner we can get a real community vision and plan together, the better. Otherwise, expect the same. Some positive steps forward, along with some easily avoidable steps backwards.

The DIA is supposed to embark on their 5 year update, which was done completely ad hoc last time. Does anyone think they will do a holistic approach with community visioning and input?  Sadly, I do not seee that happening. 

[thelakelander]

The DIA plan was a CRA plan. We haven't had a community oriented visioning process for downtown since the Delaney administration.

[jaxlongtimer]

The DIA plan was a CRA plan. We haven't had a community oriented visioning process for downtown since the Delaney administration.

Over the decades, I would add, I have never seen City officials take community input seriously for anything.  It's mostly charette charades!

[Skybox111]

I want to know what's going on with block N8...

Nothing much still empty. whats it been five or six months since they got their construction permit wondering if they are having trouble with financing or waiting if publix will be approved and start construction since 22 story is their flagship building  for pearl square and without publix it would be worthless to build 500 units of rental and that if they did do ground testing did they find something that may hinder building that tower. would plaza tower hinder negotiations for publix since its asking for incentives when city council was debating on approving publix.

[thelakelander]

The DIA plan was a CRA plan. We haven't had a community oriented visioning process for downtown since the Delaney administration.

Over the decades, I would add, I have never seen City officials take community input seriously for anything.  It's mostly charette charades!

Yes, and that's been a problem over the decades.

[simms3]

The 'we need jobs downtown first' argument has to compete with the reality that when there were thousands more jobs Downtown, these residential projects did not follow in a big way. And what residential there was was incentivized also.   

     

The last time we had "thousands more jobs downtown" was in the 90s/early 2000s.  When Vestcor received incentives to revitalize the Carling and 11 East back in 2004, I would argue downtown was already in decline, but, you're right they still needed incentives.

I don't think it disproves the argument though.  By the 90s other cities were focusing on their downtowns the way we are today and so got a huge head start when things were MUCH cheaper to build and jobs were still abundant in central cores.  Jax was still demolishing Lavilla and expanding the Skyway to nowhere and local banking and insurance execs were selling out to other places/businesses en masse (and now none of those former execs who received huge payouts from selling are spending a dime to make our downtown nicer).

Now things are really expensive.  If we want to even dream of having renters and owners of downtown apartments and condos, they need to be able to pay the freight.  Interest rates are also skyrocketing right now, not helping.

So where are these people who can afford to pay $2,000 for a one bedroom going to come from and why would they want you spend that kind of money in a stuttering downtown, especially when they work off JTB and can live out at the beach for less?

I think it still boils down to jobs.  High paying white collar office jobs downtown.

[OspreyGrad]

The number one problem with downtown revitalization is the lack of white collar jobs. It has to compete with corporate office centers located in the Southside and Baymeadows area. I used to work in the Baymeadows area for a tech company for a good number of years before moving to Lake Mary, Florida which is located north of Orlando for another tech company. Lake Mary also has a Class A office corridor along Lake Emma Road and Greenwood Blvd. Both areas are thriving with retail and dining clustered around it. Both Orlando and Jacksonville are experiencing the same problems with their downtowns.

[thelakelander]

I rented an apartment in Colonial Town Center in Lake Mary, one of the years (2017-2018) I worked as an in-house planning and PD&E consultant at FDOT District 5. I picked that spot specifically because there were a mix of uses (even manicured) that were easily accessible and commutes to DeLand and Orlando were manageable. It did grow old after a year (basically a worse version of Jax's Town Center area) and I eventually rented a more authentic spot in Downtown DeLand (Opera House Lofts) to finish out that contract.

My son went to college in Atlanta but decided to come back to Jax, after getting excited about Jax after going on a DT construction tour with me. He works for a corporate company near Town Center but is more interested in Vandeveer and Pearl Square than the stuff in the Southside. His interest is the same that I had when I moved here in 2003. There was nothing in Jax's burbs that didn't come a dime a dozen in cities across the state and country. However, there was appeal with the authenticity of the downtown core and we could afford it. In my case, I wanted a rowhouse (my preferred housing type, which just wasn't here) and downtown lacked the "outdoor living room" (vibrancy) that would make it make sense to me to pay more per square foot for less space. At a minimum, Pearl Square appears to be curated to create a critical mass of a walkable mix of uses that becomes that pedestrian scale "outdoor living room" that appeals to many young professionals.

I tell this story to suggest that downtown Jax needs more of everything from higher paying jobs, corporate relocations to more residential, hotel units, programming and unique destinations to visit. All of it needs to be done in a coordinated, compact fashion to stimulate synergy sooner rather than latter. This means also stopping the consistent self sabotage where we take away from the existing environment, instead of adding to it.

Common sense says there's more vibrancy now, if we would have kept places like Hooters, Fionn MaCools, etc. and adding things around them, forcing several businesses to close, losing hundreds of downtown jobs and free consistent programming and events in the process, to spend $100 million subsidizing a park, hotel and a hand full of replacement restaurants that will attract less people than the Landing did in 1990 or 2005. The public money invested in this one site to make it less of a destination, could have been sprinkled around to improving other areas of the Northbank or incentivizing new businesses and corporate relocations.

Common sense says if you honor and care about your history, you don't burn tons of money razing LaVilla in the 1990s, during the same period of time when its urban core peers across the country, like Tampa's Ybor City, San Diego's Gaslamp, Charleston and Savannah, etc. began to make their comebacks. Common sense says you figure out how to get that no-frills Skyway station open in Brooklyn to make an existing downtown transit circulator actually serve its purpose, then run the system into the ground for an autonomous pipe dream that doesn't have the capacity to move masses.

Our misses during the 2000s have been easily avoidable mistakes that if we would have had some structure and a committed plan, downtown would be twice as vibrant than it is today.  We can't get back the past, but we can learn from it. Yes, we need jobs. Yet, we make this problem worse when we allow our own public entities (DCPS) to abandon it. Yes, we need more businesses, hotels, restaurants, etc. However, we make that problem worse when we kick out (Landing businesses) or can't support the businesses that are already here for lack of foot traffic.

People seek local authenticity, and we've torn down plenty, so we should be saving most of what we have left! Yet we allow outsiders like Captain Sandy Yawn to come and raze century old buildings because they made a personal investment that never made sense from day one.

More opportunities will come naturally because we have a good economy, climate and we're affordable. We just have to make sure to not trip over our own two feet!

[OspreyGrad]

I agree with your statement about creating an "outdoor living room" downtown. I sort of see it as a bedroom community for the working class that is a missing component that was lost decades ago. I did manage to see that when I was younger. A group of shotgun houses which I think was along Union Street after exiting I-95 if my memory serves me right.

I also think Gateway Jax is onto something with Pearl Square. The city just needs to work on complimenting that development to help that area grow and thrive. Same with the future UF campus. That area will begin to see more foot traffic. We will need to figure out how to close the walkability gap in between.

[Zac T]

The 'we need jobs downtown first' argument has to compete with the reality that when there were thousands more jobs Downtown, these residential projects did not follow in a big way. And what residential there was was incentivized also. 

   

So where are these people who can afford to pay $2,000 for a one bedroom going to come from and why would they want you spend that kind of money in a stuttering downtown, especially when they work off JTB and can live out at the beach for less?

This is the question that DT leaders and developers should keep in mind as Downtown grows. Outside of the surrounding urban core neighborhoods, the beaches is definitely the #1 competitor to Downtown for prospective residents. When I used to work in the Downtown residential sector, very rarely did we lose someone to the Town Center, SJC, or any other suburban counterpart. To Ennis' point, most people looking to live in an urban setting aren't interested in the suburbs. The beaches are the only other alternative in Duval County to generic suburbia with a good nightlife scene. It's not uncommon for people to do a few years at the beach and then move Downtown and vice versa.

With the recent growth Downtown and the persistent social media hype about Downtown's "resurgence" coupled with limited housing stock at the beach, we've seen more and more people choose Downtown over the beaches in recent years. Hopefully that's a trend that will continue and more jobs DT definitely won't hurt 

[LadyBugJax]

I suspect there are a number of folks here who have positions and stature and could sway the Mayor and the DIA to creat a true community-driven properly managed planning process to take the place of the DIA past practices.

It is hard when the check the box community input process is embedded in the bureaucracy, but why not try to change it?