JTA meetings on the future of the Skyway

[Ocklawaha]

"That could go to where more people are," said Musselwhite. "It could change routes at a moment's notice if they add a 5,000 unit apartment complex, so I kind of like that.

Change at a moments notice is exactly why buses, self-driving or otherwise, do not and never will promote massive transit oriented development. Here today, gone tomorrow, is not something a wise developer looks for when anchoring a project.

[Charles Hunter]

I think "cable car" is an invention by an uninformed and lazy news writer.

Did anyone make it to either to Thursday's public meetings? I had planned to, but family stuff came up. Hope to make one of next week's meetings.

[thelakelander]

I was tied up yesterday with meetings associated with real projects. Does anyone have a recap?

[jaxjags]

JTA Announces Installation of Gondola System From Sports District to Riverside

JTA will install an 8 passenger gondola system from Intuition Ale in the Sports District to the Cummer Museum in Riverside, with a mid station located at Bay and Jefferson. This will allow connection to the SkyWay at the Jefferson Station. This 2.3 long system will be similar to the recently announced (April 12, 2021) California Express Gondola to connect Squaw Valley with Alpine Meadows ski areas. That 2.2 mile, $66 million system over mountainous terrain will be designed, manufactured and installation commenced this summer. As the Jacksonville system will be similar in length and capacity to the California Express, design and engineering will be shorter and less expensive. Although a timeline is not complete for the CA system, it is anticipated that the JAX gondola can be completed in late 2023.

The JAX EXPRESS, as it will be called, will have the same capacity as the CA EXPRESS of 1400 passengers per hour each direction with a car departing every  25 seconds. The design will allow for adding cars to the system during busy times for a 2800 passengers per hour. Total transit time is estimated to be 16 mins.

JTA also said as part of this system they will upgrade the SkyWay and extend it to both UF Health and San Marco using the elevated configuration. Further a long term study for light rail north to the airport and south to SJTC area will be started. These lines will feed the SkyWay system at UF Health and San Marco.

The JAX EXPRESS/SKYWAY System is/will:

1. Use known technology that can be designed, engineered and installed today. No trial needed, so timeline is compressed.
2. Provide TOD opportunities at UF Health, Southside/San Marco, Riverside and Sports District.
3. Provide Jax with a true tourist attraction.
4. Costs are estimated to be a reasonable $25-30 million per mile.

Further details to be announced soon.


Although I posted this in 2021 It was NOT me who said anything about a "cable" car system.

[Charles Hunter]

Was this posted on April 1?

[jaxjags]

No May 2, 2021, but it is a bit of sarcasm, especially as this approach had higher rates per hour than NAVI.

[marcuscnelson]

JTA has finally updated their website to display the new alternatives:

https://www.jtafla.com/project-initiatives/u2c/u2c-phase-ii-skyway-rehabilitation-and-downtown-expansion-project-development-and-environment-study-public-meetings/

First thing that stands out to me: the APM & streetcar alternatives mention headways of "10 minutes or better" and describe APMs as having "limited opportunities for growth" while the AV alternatives suggest "Headways up to 5 minutes or better" and "Provides flexibility for growth". Stinks of sandbagging fixed guideway alternatives, even as Ford is on his way out the door.

This all seems really strange to me. Despite JTA having reduced the frequency of NAVI due to their fiscal irresponsibility, they are claiming they can operate AVs at frequencies of 5 minutes or better? And what happens when there are nights like a few weeks ago, with major events at street level or the stadiums? Shutting the whole thing down again? Not to mention the alternative to convert the guideway for NAVI is a 3-4 year construction project. What the hell are they thinking over there? This is all while for the foreseeable future they will still need onboard "attendants" with the operating cost that entails (about $7.3 million per year), because JTA simply does not have Waymo or Tesla money to get this technology to those capabilities.

Finally, here are maps of proposed at-grade AV routes and of the at-grade streetcar:





The streetcar alternative is just bizarre. Half a billion dollars (which might not include the cost of whatever would need to happen to the Acosta) to still not reach the Sports Complex, keeping the useless NAVI, having to tear up Park Street we've just spent however much money modifying for the road diet and Emerald Trail to embed tracks, a third operations & maintenance facility, and all to have a streetcar on what looks to be a pretty slow route that is bound to get stuck in traffic when FDOT inevitably refuses to allow for priority on Prudential or for crossing State & Union. What a mess.

[thelakelander]

^Yeah, I glanced at their numbers and knew right off the top, this stuff is full of shenanigans. That streetcar route is ridiculous. Multiple unnecessary loops and a river crossing to still not actually go anywhere.

It would be cheaper to build a single line, with passing sidings, stretching from Five Points to the stadium. But if you saw that, the NAVI alternatives would get eliminated.

The NAVI thing is so ingrained over there, this city is going to have to kill the program or force it to being limited to the existing failed Bay Street experiment first before being able to have an honest conversation about transit needs and opportunities in this town.

[Charles Hunter]

Talk about cooking the books. That streetcar route is absurd!
I'll take a look at the website in a bit.

[Charles Hunter]

Not a whole lot of information on the JTA website.
Looking at the Streetcar option.
It looks like they just duplicated the AV routes from Options 4 and 5. As thelakelander said, a single trackway with strategically placed bypasses (at stations?) would be much less costly.

Going down Hogan Street is a bad idea, with the Emerald Trail already planned for Hogan. Moving one block west to Julia, with the single line / bypass system, will serve both the Federal Courthouse (< one block to entrance) and County Courthouse (1.5 blocks), while also penetrating the Pearl Square area. I don't think FDOT will surrender a lane (or 2) on State Street for a streetcar; although, if the route is 2-way along Julia, it won't be necessary to use State Street.

Running on both Bay and Water Streets doesn't make sense either. Again, single track with bypasses on Bay Street makes more sense.

Acosta Bridge - Will they be able to reconfigure the Skyway track for the streetcar? Do the horizontal clearances and grade work for streetcar? If not, I don't see FDOT giving up two lanes of the bridge for the streetcar.

Southbank - Again, too loopy; just follow the Skyway path on Mary Street.

Not going to the Sports and Entertainment area with the streetcar is also a failure. There is no way those Holon pods can match the capacity of a streetcar.

It looks like the Streetcar Maintenance and Storage (and Parking/TOD?) facility will be next to the Greyhound Bus Station. Is 1.5 acres enough room to store and maintain the 12 streetcars the alternative lists? I don't know what JTA could mean with "Parking and TOD" also on this parcel. Although, if they completely kill NAVI, the facility on Jefferson Street would be available for light maintenance and additional storage. Also, the Skyway maintenance facility would also be available for repurposing.

Do "modern streetcar systems" need overhead wires and catenaries? Is there such a thing as an EV streetcar? The repurposed maintenance facility of either the NAVI or Skyway could charge and hold streetcars, ready to swap out for those needing recharging (how long would a charge last?)

Just a few thoughts from a quick look at the sparse info on the JTA website.

[thelakelander]

Not a whole lot of information on the JTA website.
Looking at the Streetcar option.
It looks like they just duplicated the AV routes from Options 4 and 5.

I'd expect this direction from middle school kids doing a transit study as a part of a special class project. However, I'd expect more from a transportation professional. A modern streetcar is a completely different animal from both the Skyway and NAVI.

If we're going to go down this path, then this alternative would need to be evaluated, analyzed, routed and priced from a best practice perspective for this particular mode. When that's done, you're going to naturally end up with a route that will be different from both the Skyway and NAVI. Thus, this JTA exercise is highly misleading to the average resident. The weird routing is simply impractical for this type of technology and building a river crossing makes no sense for such a small corridor. 

A starter streetcar line would not follow the same path as the Skyway, instead it would complement the existing transit system by connecting key destinations and urban core neighborhoods with downtown. If we're modifying the Skyway for a streetcar or larger APM, then a real expansion of the system should be considered. Otherwise, you just end up with a bloated price per mile because some things you're going to have to pay for regardless of if the system is 2.5 miles or 20 miles. If we don't want to expand the Skyway, then the answer is either invest in rehabilitating the existing vehicles or demolish the entire thing.....and neither of these options should be linked to an expansion of NAVI.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ I read the proposed paths for either the AV or street car line as mimicking the Skyway line but at grade.  This infers that doing either would result in abandonment/removal of the Skyway.  No way you would do both.

If JTA is willing to finally concede to the abandonment of the Skyway, let's just start with a totally clean slate and truly master plan a new comprehensive, feasible, efficient, and effective mass transit arrangement for the greater urban core, not just Downtown.  All these "projects of the day" are just wasting millions to billions of dollars on nothing that is sustainable or effective.

Head spinning...   

[thelakelander]

^Your dream isn't on the table. Abandoning the Skyway is connected to expanding NAVI, which makes the Skyway look like the NYC Subway in comparison. We really can't have an honest discussion about anything until NAVI is removed from the conversation.

[Ken_FSU]

Should be a keyboard macro by this point, but it seems absurd to me to be plotting out routes for any downtown transit solution without a true downtown master plan to anchor said routes in. We badly need a block-by-block roadmap of what we want our downtown to be, including things like use type and funding mechanisms and timelines. We can't make informed decisions about an urban circulator without first soldifying plans for convention center, sports and entertainment complex, the old MOSH site, JWJP (active vs passive) and highest and best use of the mountain of city-owned property and surface lots in the CBD. Until we have that vision fully locked in, we're throwing darts blindfolded with these discussions. Map out the master plan for downtown, and then plan out the routes around it based on feasibility, highest opportunity for ridership, and best chances to spark TOD.

[Charles Hunter]

There you go, Ken_FSU, talking good sense. That seems to be forbidden in the various halls of government around here. I had hoped Mayor Deegan would embrace a comprehensive plan for downtown. I had hoped some of the collective wisdom here might have caught hold in her consciousness.

Because of the things that Ken_FSU said. JTA should make no decision on the future of downtown circulation - beyond killing NAVI where it stands - until there is a plan for downtown, and JTA has new CEO.