JTA meetings on the future of the Skyway

[deathstar]

^This could be as simple as a hybrid commuter rail line down the CSX A line, where you could ride from a station in Murray Hill's First Block into downtown's Union Station!

That's even better since Murray Hill is literally right down the road from me. Man, if only.

[marcuscnelson]

Thoughts

from marcusnelson
So for example, during a Jaguars game ... a modernized Skyway (like the O'Hare ATS for reference) that carries about 100 people per train every 3 minutes

I checked, the O'Hare ATS people movers runs in 3-car trains of 45' long cars. Could a 45-foot long vehicle make the Bay-Hogan curve? The Acosta Bridge appoaches? Other curves? How long were the old DPM cars?

Something interesting I found when looking at this was this

Wikipedia - (Chicago) Airport Transit System - Fleet

The ATS originally used the French-based VAL technology, which features fully automated, rubber-tired people mover cars that previously saw use on the Jacksonville Skyway until 1989. The system is capable of traveling at speeds of up to 50 mph (80 km/h), and now uses 12 3-car Bombardier Innovia APM 256 trains, which replaced the previous 15 Matra VAL 256 vehicles.

and

As of 2023, the previous 15 VAL trains are sitting in a vacant lot on airport property near Irving Park Road and Taft Avenue.

Wonder if we could get a good deal on them?
I don't think they are the old JTA DPM cars. Looking at a Google aerial, they look longer than the cars I remember that used to be here. But, that was 27 years ago.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/IL-19+%26+Taft+Ave,+Chicago,+IL+60131/@41.954605,-87.9133493,44a,35y,39.48t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x880fb469d99922bd:0xa842bec19a134938!8m2!3d41.9536172!4d-87.9142007!16s%2Fg%2F11gf4c01ck?authuser=0&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDMxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

According to JTA themselves on page 25 here, the train type used at O'Hare and formerly on the Skyway, the modern iteration of which is the Innovia APM 256, has the same minimum curve radius (100 feet) as the current UMIII trains. It's possible that there are curvature, weight, and grade questions on the newer sections of the Skyway and if so JTA should try to figure those out instead of insisting on a worse solution for the sake of innovation. I believe with the platform length on the Skyway, 2-car APM 256 trains should fit (with some modest platform adjustments for the wider trains), 3-car trains might be too long, either way you are reconstructing the maintenance facility.

I don't think it's a good idea to try and take trains that have already served long careers in Jacksonville and Chicago to make fit, if that is the goal we might as well try to rebuild the trains we already have, that'd be cheaper.

^This could be as simple as a hybrid commuter rail line down the CSX A line, where you could ride from a station in Murray Hill's First Block into downtown's Union Station!

That's even better since Murray Hill is literally right down the road from me. Man, if only.

There has been some path dependency for a while now with the insistence that the first commuter rail line (if ever built) should be on the FEC to St. Augustine (which granted, is promising in theory) instead of the much lower hanging fruit of working with Clay County to buy the A-Line and build a service along it, especially with the number of stations in Duval alone you could potentially include (Riverside, Murray Hill, FSCJ Kent, Ortega Park, NAS JAX) before even getting into Clay.

[Ken_FSU]

Rory pushing for Waymo.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2026/03/19/jacksonville-city-councilman-pushing-to-roll-out-waymo-safety-analysts-have-some-concerns/?utm_source=Jacksonville+Today+Audience&utm_campaign=ebbf6df2c0-FRI03202026&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-ebbf6df2c0-643026430

[thelakelander]

What laws at the state need to change for Waymo to be in Jax, that they didn't have to change for them to expand to Orlando, Miami and Tampa? Neither Waymo or NAVI are mass transit solutions. However, if we're a market that Waymo thinks aligns with their business model, they'll seek to expand here regardless of Diamond, JTA or NAVI. If Jax doesn't want NAVI, then stop funding it.

[Ken_FSU]

Does JTA have the power to block Waymo's entrance into the Jacksonville market? Hoping the answer is a decisive "no."

[thelakelander]

I don't know the answer to that question and the article doesn't specify why the same state laws that apply to Florida's other cities would not apply to Jax.

Waymo is also basically ride share. Thats not what JTA is attempting to try and do with NAVI, from a transit perspective.

All this sounds is like another person with no professional experience or credibility in the field, trying to force solutions to problems or obstacles that may not exist.

[Charles Hunter]

I read the article as saying local laws must be changed, not state laws.
Near the end of the article

Diamond must secure support from the mayor's office and navigate changes to city laws.

[thelakelander]

Thats even more confusing. What local laws?

[Charles Hunter]

Thats even more confusing. What local laws?

I wondered that, too. OF course, the author of the article can't be bothered to explain.

[thelakelander]

Yes, Diamond has never needed Deegan's help or approval for anything else he's tried to get passed. So very confused to why all of a sudden he'd need it now.

I also find it hard to believe Jax's leaders would stop Waymo for wanting to expand here (if Waymo really wanted to come), but then turn around and give up hundreds of millions for NAVI and Holon.

I'd lean to this report needing a bit of technical fact checking.

[jaxlongtimer]

I perceive that local laws have always governed taxi-type services including issuing "medallions."  As such, I would expect a Waymo service would come under similar laws as they are "selling" a public service.  So, not surprised that there would be some degree of local regulation/licensing/permitting above and beyond any state rules. 

I would also expect the biggest resistance to Waymo will come from incumbent ride providers.  If JTA opposed Waymo, seeing it as a threat to NAVI/U2C, it would just prove the point made here that NAVI/U2C is an expensive version of Waymo.  I would think JTA would then have some heavy explaining as to why they ever endeavored on U2C when we could have Waymo for free or even as a revenue source to the City if it was taxed/licensed for a fee.

[Charles Hunter]

I perceive that local laws have always governed taxi-type services including issuing "medallions."  As such, I would expect a Waymo service would come under similar laws as they are "selling" a public service.  So, not surprised that there would be some degree of local regulation/licensing/permitting above and beyond any state rules.

I imagine that Waymo would say they are more like Uber and Lyft than a traditional taxi service. I think I would agree with them.

I would also expect the biggest resistance to Waymo will come from incumbent ride providers.  If JTA opposed Waymo, seeing it as a threat to NAVI/U2C, it would just prove the point made here that NAVI/U2C is an expensive version of Waymo.  I would think JTA would then have some heavy explaining as to why they ever endeavored on U2C when we could have Waymo for free or even as a revenue source to the City if it was taxed/licensed for a fee.

Bingo! First, I don't think the Jax market is attractive to Waymo at this point. That is, unless Waymo wants to get in on the ground floor before any other AV services come.
Second, unless Waymo were coming with 15 to 20 -passenger vans, any complaint by JTA would be an admission that the U2C is nothing more than an expensive and less capable Waymo.

[thelakelander]

I don't think Waymo has significant interest in being here. We're small beans compared the the markets they are doing business in. Even if they were here, it doesn't really kill the NAVI experiment.

[jaxlongtimer]

I don't think Waymo has significant interest in being here. We're small beans compared the the markets they are doing business in.

I think you are selling short Waymo's goal to ultimately be everywhere, sooner than later.  Below is an example of Waymo and Uber partnering.  So, in just this example, it is possible, wherever Uber is, Waymo could follow.

At Uber, we're reimagining how the world moves—a future where autonomous vehicles and human drivers work side by side to help make transportation affordable, sustainable, and accessible for all.

We've partnered with Waymo to bring autonomous ridesharing to Austin and Atlanta, only on the Uber app. In these cities, riders may get matched with a Waymo fully autonomous, all-electric Jaguar I-PACE vehicle. With Waymo's technology and Uber's proven platform, we're ready to bring you the ride of the future, today.

https://www.uber.com/us/en/u/waymo-on-uber/

[thelakelander]

My main point is, if Waymo really wants to be here, like an Ikea or Bass Pro, they'll come. They don't need Diamond to do their bidding and I'd doubt JTA, the mayor or council would attempt to stand in their way. I'm highly skeptical that there's a local law or plot keeping them away.

They'll likely roll out their expansion plan like many of the others. Hit the markets  that work best for their product/service first, then expand to smaller markets that make sense.