Florida Times-Union property under contract; $250 million project planned

[fieldafm]

Was hoping for a LOT better for one of the best riverfront sites in the city.

The devil is in the details, but the proposed uses, site plan and massing is what I would expect the market can support.  It would be very beneficial to get a Greenw.. grocery market at that location.

I would hope that DIA and DDRB pushes for better treatment of how the site interacts with Riverside Avenue and the facade/finishing treatment.  The Brooklyn submarket is a very profitable one for these types of developments... and as such the material and facade treatment should begin to reflect a step up over the Regency/Fuqua development across the street.

[jaxoNOLE]

Just a little bit of height and setback variation to give the impression of rising away from the river would be nice. As rendered at this early stage, it looks like a development that could happening in Deerwood. If the market for a high-rise isn't there, fine, but it should still be expected to visually interesting and up to par for such a highly visible property that will benefit greatly from a massive city investment into McCoy's Creek.

The value of fancy renderings, especially in Jax, may be dubious at best but I look forward to seeing what Fuqua has in mind. Here's hoping the Related project on the Southbank was a good warm-up for the DDRB to do a thorough review.

[fieldafm]

Personally, I don't care about the setbacks.  For 40 years the site has interacted with the river via a surface parking lot separated by a fence.

Replacing that with apartments is 1,000 times better.


Its very premature to get into the form and function at this point, but the building massing along Riverside Avenue isn't too worrisome as long as they are designed to interact well with the sidewalk. 

The Greenwise grocery story in Tallahassee's Gaines Street offers a good example.  It features an entrance that essentially fronts Gaines Street, even though the parking is in the back.  It also features an elevated and covered seating section, as well as additional seating options among shade trees and various window massing that stretch along Gaines Street

https://www.moderncities.com/article/2018-jun-before-and-after-tallahassees-gaines-street

These are all very cost effective ways to make a big box a bit more contextually sensitive. 

The developer was responsible for things like the Riverside Publix (when he worked for Sembler) and a joint venture with Regency Centers across the street at Brooklyn Station.  They have shown the ability to work with local officials to create contextually-sensitive site designs and architectural treatments. This preliminary site plan at the former TU site is not unlike a project the same developer is doing in Atlanta:

http://www.fuquadevelopment.com/files/links/20160509-madisonyards-renderings.pdf

[Charles Hunter]

What's the line on whether the apartments will look like the rest of Brooklyn, with strategically placed rectangles of contrasting color?

[vicupstate]

Remember when Riverside Ave was widened and it was poised to become Jacksonville's version of Miami's Brickell district? It was the most expensive street widening in FL at the time. Run of the mill 5 story apartments for this section of the river and this main thoroughfare, is indicative of where the market is at. 

[fieldafm]

Remember when Riverside Ave was widened and it was poised to become Jacksonville's version of Miami's Brickell district? It was the most expensive street widening in FL at the time. Run of the mill 5 story apartments for this section of the river and this main thoroughfare, is indicative of where the market is at.

No argument that the widening of Forest St and Riverside Ave (and subsequent loss of building stock and the elimination of the historic street grid network) was not a good idea then, and still not a good idea now. And the Brickell comparisons/projections back then were eye rollers, for sure.  For those curious about the history, check out: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/

That said, I don't think you can look at Brooklyn and call it a failure by any stretch of the imagination.  It is now home to three Fortune 500 companies, the only functioning/thriving retail presence in Downtown's expanded boundaries (aided in large part due to the interstate highway access), and has had more new housing and hotel units come online in the past 10 years than the Northbank CBD and Southbank combined.

A developer has assembled land along Park Street, and once the Park Street Road Diet (and Emerald Trail connection) is completed, you'll see that section also be marked with a mix of new infill and redevelopment of existing buildings.  Brooklyn puts everywhere else Downtown to shame... and thats even with the missteps of the past.   

[acme54321]

As long as the big gray boxes end up looking like something other than big colorful boxes I'd be ok with it.  The building that they are wrapping up on the other side of the river is pretty bad.

[thelakelander]

Yes! No one should be worried about anything in Jacksonville (or the rest of the Deep South, including anything in Atlanta) becoming the next Brickell.....







South Florida is a different animal, landscape and economy altogether. Hopefully, Jax civil leaders will be more realistic when selling various visions of what the future of local scenes can one day be.

[Zac T]

The uses and density are fine but the site layout can be better with a few changes such as shifting the retail space and grocery store to front the entrance road and move the street level parking to the back of those buildings. Considering that any chances of Brooklyn becoming an actual urban, pedestrian friendly neighborhood again went down the drain years ago, the project is okay and beneficial to the area.

Not this developers fault but I think it's a shame how disconnected Brooklyn feels from Downtown, Riverside, and the surrounding neighborhoods if you don't have a car. Aside from the Riverwalk, there's no easy way to get to Brooklyn without feeling that your life is in danger crossing the massive roads and parking lots. Hopefully we hold future developments to stricter urban, design standards

[vicupstate]

Remember when Riverside Ave was widened and it was poised to become Jacksonville's version of Miami's Brickell district? It was the most expensive street widening in FL at the time. Run of the mill 5 story apartments for this section of the river and this main thoroughfare, is indicative of where the market is at.

No argument that the widening of Forest St and Riverside Ave (and subsequent loss of building stock and the elimination of the historic street grid network) was not a good idea then, and still not a good idea now. And the Brickell comparisons/projections back then were eye rollers, for sure.  For those curious about the history, check out: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/

That said, I don't think you can look at Brooklyn and call it a failure by any stretch of the imagination.  It is now home to three Fortune 500 companies, the only functioning/thriving retail presence in Downtown's expanded boundaries (aided in large part due to the interstate highway access), and has had more new housing and hotel units come online in the past 10 years than the Northbank CBD and Southbank combined.

A developer has assembled land along Park Street, and once the Park Street Road Diet (and Emerald Trail connection) is completed, you'll see that section also be marked with a mix of new infill and redevelopment of existing buildings.  Brooklyn puts everywhere else Downtown to shame... and thats even with the missteps of the past.   

Those F500 companies had been there before the widening and the Brooklyn 'renaissance' (such as it is) occurred. They didn't land there because of what has happened in Brooklyn the last 10 years. What has occurred in Brooklyn the last 10 years stands out because the same thing didn't happen on the Northbank or Southbank in the same timeframe. Given the widening and what has happened since, Brooklyn is really an 'urban' version of a suburban highway commercial node. That isn't a bad thing particularly but given the location we are talking about here, and the money being poured into McCoy's creek, it is hard to get excited about the same 5 story podium apartment construction that is already across the street.  If the urban core really does take off, we will wish something more substantial was done here. Given the corporate presence already in the area, I wish someone (Fidelity, perhaps) would just warehouse it for that or some other substantial purpose. 

[fieldafm]

Fidelity's relocation happened in 2003, and FIS' expansion is happening now.  Neither had anything directly to do with the widening of Riverside Ave (a process started in the mid 1990's), but to discount Fidelity's presence when comparing Brooklyn in the year 2000 (when things like the St Joe and Harden buildings were in their due dilligence phases, and the Riverside Ave and Forrest St/I-10 interchange planning process had lots of ink on the paper) to the year 2021 is, silly. 

Frankly, what's so vastly different in the type of building stock infill of Brooklyn Jacksonville in the past 15 years than that of South End Charlotte, or Westside Atlanta, or even Gulch in Nashville?   The market for urban neighborhoods in mid-size cities outside of large city-outliers like Midtown Atlanta, Brickell Miami, etc is the same as whats going up in Brooklyn- some tall buildings, but mostly mid-rise, wood-frame construction mixed with compact retail developments.

[vicupstate]

None of the apartments or hotels you are referring to existed in 2000 or 2003 or 2009 for that matter.  CSX and Fidelity were already there when the 'renaissance' occurred. Fidelity didn't expand because a bunch of apartments and a Fresh Market got built nearby.

Frankly, what's so vastly different in the type of building stock infill of Brooklyn Jacksonville in the past 15 years than that of South End Charlotte, or Westside Atlanta, or even Gulch in Nashville?

Nothing. Which is the point. This is a large prime riverfront spot with considerable acreage. Yet it is no different or more dense than what is 4 blocks back from the other side of Riverside Ave. You wouldn't see something like this on Tryon Street in Uptown Charlotte or on Broadway in Nashville.  Just like the apartments next to the School Board building or those replacing the River City Brewing Company, the really prime riverfront spots are being developed no denser nor of higher quality than what can be found in any part of Jacksonville or any other city. 

Something along the lines of a hotel, an office building, AND a mid-high rise residential building would be a better fit.  This actually would be a good spot for a Convention Center and hotel, but obviously that is pie in the sky.               

[Steve]

While it's a little early to get into exactly site plans, my thought would be to turn the garage and Grocery 90 Degrees.

- this could allow for a grocery entrance from the sidewalk, while still maintaining parking
- You could front the garage portion facing Riverside with Retail.

That aside, it isn't bad IMO. It's not the most dense thing ever, but there's a couple threads on that already.

[jaxlongtimer]

Personally, I don't care about the setbacks.  For 40 years the site has interacted with the river via a surface parking lot separated by a fence.

Two wrongs don't make a right as they say.  I do care about setbacks as previously expressed on other threads.  These buildings will be around for decades or more and set a precedent for other development along the river.  We have already made more exceptions than we should have in my opinion.  I believe if we had standards that we more closely adhered to you would get better and more development as a result of a higher quality environment.  Development for the sake of development is not a good mantra.

I don't know about the environmental impacts of moving McCoys creek but if those are acceptable, I like that it is free of the buildings and the "channeling" there now and is surrounded by a park.  Plus, by moving the Creek east, it looks like it will have greater clearance under the rising Riverside Avenue ramps to the Acosta Bridge so another win there.

Not sure that an "organic" grocer will add much as I understand Fresh Market already has much of that.  Can the area support two higher end grocers so close?

One other issue that will be interesting to see addressed is the entry from Riverside Avenue being at the bottom of the bridge ramps with merging lanes right up to the entry intersection.

[fieldafm]

None of the apartments or hotels you are referring to existed in 2000 or 2003 or 2009 for that matter.  CSX and Fidelity were already there when the 'renaissance' occurred. Fidelity didn't expand because a bunch of apartments and a Fresh Market got built nearby.

Frankly, what's so vastly different in the type of building stock infill of Brooklyn Jacksonville in the past 15 years than that of South End Charlotte, or Westside Atlanta, or even Gulch in Nashville?

Nothing. Which is the point. This is a large prime riverfront spot with considerable acreage. Yet it is no different or more dense than what is 4 blocks back from the other side of Riverside Ave. You wouldn't see something like this on Tryon Street in Uptown Charlotte or on Broadway in Nashville.  Just like the apartments next to the School Board building or those replacing the River City Brewing Company, the really prime riverfront spots are being developed no denser nor of higher quality than what can be found in any part of Jacksonville or any other city. 

Something along the lines of a hotel, an office building, AND a mid-high rise residential building would be a better fit.  This actually would be a good spot for a Convention Center and hotel, but obviously that is pie in the sky.               

Good, then we agree that the widening of Riverside Ave went too far and that Fidelity's expansion had nothing to do with that. 

The point was that even though the Brickell 'projections' were overblown then... Brooklyn has been, by far, the biggest success story in the artificially expanded borders of 'Downtown'... even despite the COJ missteps (Riverside Ave, tearing down historic building stock, removing the historic street grid, etc). I just see no point in dismissing that.  Frankly, the Northbank could learn a lot from Brooklyn's limited success.

You wouldn't see something like this on Tryon Street in Uptown Charlotte or on Broadway in Nashville.

Those comparables are the historic Northbank CBD in Jax.  South End, Gulch, etc are the more accurate comparisons for Brooklyn Jax. In that vein I don't see much difference at all with new building stock in those urban neighborhoods, and what is going up in Brooklyn.

Just like the apartments next to the School Board building or those replacing the River City Brewing Company, the really prime riverfront spots are being developed no denser nor of higher quality than what can be found in any part of Jacksonville or any other city.

I'd like to see 8 more skyscrapers, 30,000 more housing units and 400,000 new square feet of retail pop up in 'Downtown' Jacksonville in the next three years.

But, that's not the market. 

One one hand, you are saying that the riverfront is not dense enough...  and then you have these irrelevant broken records:

I do care about setbacks as previously expressed on other threads.

blather about massive setbacks and arbitrary height limits along the riverfront. 

Pretty confident that this middle ground I'm standing on is more the right temperature.  To each their own