Skyway expansion in Jacksonville at stake in proposed gas tax increase

[thelakelander]

City Council member LeAnna Cumber said whether the city should increase the gas tax should be open for debate, but as for using any of it for the Skyway, she opposes that "without reservation."

"To spend more money on a system that has never worked since (opening) and was a pilot program is astonishing to me, to be honest with you," she said. "The idea that 40 percent of the proposed gas tax increase is going to this system, I don't understand it."

She said it would be better to pay the one-time cost for tearing down the elevated structure and use the hundreds of millions of dollars of proposed Skyway spending for other transportation projects like the bus system, sidewalks, bike lanes and road work.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/03/29/proposed-jacksonville-gas-tax-increase-puts-spotlight-skyways-future/7013223002/

[Steve]

I don't know if I agree with her proposed uses and all of her reasoning with the Skyway.....but I'm struggling to support this know how much is going to the Skyway replacement.

[Charles Hunter]

JTA has quite a job of selling this to educating the public on this Skyway* project, before the vote on the gas tax.

* and if only 25% of it is going to be elevated (2.5 miles of around 10) they need to stop calling it "skyway" - and "U2C" isn't the right name, either.

[thelakelander]

I don't think this thing is anywhere near 10 miles if the conceptual bridge across the St. Johns River isn't included in that number. For a fact, that bridge isn't included in the $378 million figure. So we're really talking about 7-8 miles of something for the cost of $378 million....which makes it a bit more expensive than what it is being sold as now. I'm a fan of raising the gas tax and will even make an argument for not tearing down the Skyway, however, the U2C thing needs a much more transparent discussion, not a sales job. Whatever the case, whatever the technology desired, we certainly should not be spending nearly $400 million on something that will serve so few. The capacity numbers included in this article should more like that's the max capacity of the AVs that have been explored by JTA so far, not exactly tied to land use, development trends and leveraging TOD in select spots as a part of a community visioning goal.

[marcuscnelson]

I don't want us to end up doing nothing, but I don't see this system as proposed as a responsible use of taxpayer money. Jacksonville shouldn't have the burden of being the first city in America (as JTA has proudly proclaimed) to put autonomous vehicles into mixed urban traffic. We have too many other basics to get right, and they haven't made a solid case that the technology actually works in the proposed setting and is fully prepared for primetime. And for the proposed amount, we can work on other projects that have a chance to also impact people beyond downtown and its immediate surrounding neighborhoods. As I've suggested.

Lake, I think one possibility to consider is that the extra 2 miles includes the way they plan to loop around city blocks in some places. If I remember right, the Bay Street corridor route does stuff like loop around Lot J before turning back towards Bay. The renderings don't really show that.

[marcuscnelson]

Also, wouldn't we have to at least pay the feds back $2 million for going away from a peoplemover system, no matter what it's replaced by? Does that really only kick in if we decide to raze the entire thing to the ground?

[icarus]

So we're going to spend $400 million on a pilot transportation program to replace a defunct pilot transportation program.  Anyone else noticing a trend here??

We already passed once on extending the people mover to the end of JTB when we declined/walked away from ROW discussions with FEC.  Why not replace the park and share lot with a parking garage/ multimodal stop, i.e. revamped skyway replacement station and BRT to east end of JTB?? The biggest problem/setback with skyway has always been that it does not serve a greater area (other than being a monorail).

Literally can think of so many uses for $400 million than clown cars. SMH

[marcuscnelson]

I think most here would argue that monorail/peoplemover systems aren't really designed to go that distance. Going from downtown to JTB is more suited for regional rail or rapid transit than a monorail. We should still develop the park & ride, and link it to whatever transit network we eventually send downtown, though. And I've previously argued for using some of the U2C money to add BRT to JTB or Southside Blvd, where bus service is less common.

[tufsu1]

I don't think this thing is anywhere near 10 miles if the conceptual bridge across the St. Johns River isn't included in that number.

The article quotes the Bay Street extension from Hogan to the stadium as 3.2 miles - so it would seem they are counting both directions in the mileage. Maybe this explains the 10 miles.

[vicupstate]

* and if only 25% of it is going to be elevated (2.5 miles of around 10) they need to stop calling it "skyway" - and "U2C" isn't the right name, either.

How about calling it "The never-ending boondoggle"

Cumber speaks the truth on this subject. Time to pull the plug on this failed experiment. 

[Snaketoz]

In Jacksonville, we should do what we always do.  Go anti-anything that cost money.  To Hell with the future.  Let's train all of our future generations to do the same.  Bring more and more cars onto our roads, complain about parking, potholes, traffic jams, air pollution, and commute times.  Sit in traffic alone and look out at all the other single rider vehicles around you.  Don't plan for the future, wait until it's too late.  That way we can pay 5 times as much as it would have cost, and won't have any money to properly maintain it.  Yeah, let Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Tampa Bay, Palm Beach, Fort Meyers, look ahead.  We can keep Cowford running like it always has, while everyone else passes us by.  After all, we don't deserve to be a top tier city.  Let all of the other cities progress, my grandchildren can continue our fine tradition.  Who wants to spend money on the future?  We can drive ourselves to Monster Truck competitions, tractor pulls, and the wresslin' matches.  Progress be damned.

[thelakelander]

From the article:

The JTA says a Transit Concept and Alternative Review Plan projected that daily ridership on the Bay Street corridor would be an average 1,000 to 3,500 per day by 2035 and then 1,200 to 4,400 rides by 2045.

I'm totally fine with investing in the Skyway if the investment makes sense. It's a stretch to say no one is interested in investing in the future if they question the feasibility and expense of something that will move less people people a day in 2045 than the broken down Skyway did in 2010. Btw, those numbers likely reflect the max capacity of a system using minivan like vehicles, not the actual transit demand for a vibrant urban core.

I also think there's a difference between being okay with investing in the Skyway but not in the U2C proposal as currently being dreamed, pushed and sold to a community that has not bought in.

[thelakelander]

I don't think this thing is anywhere near 10 miles if the conceptual bridge across the St. Johns River isn't included in that number.

The article quotes the Bay Street extension from Hogan to the stadium as 3.2 miles - so it would seem they are counting both directions in the mileage. Maybe this explains the 10 miles.

Have they ever considered to run AV experiment down Bay Street and operating it separate from fooling around the the Skyway? After all, it is a demonstration project, moreso than something intended to meet the needs of a basic transit user. Might as well spend less on the demonstration and use the saved funds on transit and multimodal projects (hello....Emerald Trail system....) that bring a greater economic and quality of life benefit to a larger segment of the local population.

[marcuscnelson]

In Jacksonville, we should do what we always do.  Go anti-anything that cost money.  To Hell with the future.  Let's train all of our future generations to do the same.  Bring more and more cars onto our roads, complain about parking, potholes, traffic jams, air pollution, and commute times.  Sit in traffic alone and look out at all the other single rider vehicles around you.  Don't plan for the future, wait until it's too late.  That way we can pay 5 times as much as it would have cost, and won't have any money to properly maintain it.  Yeah, let Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Tampa Bay, Palm Beach, Fort Meyers, look ahead.  We can keep Cowford running like it always has, while everyone else passes us by.  After all, we don't deserve to be a top tier city.  Let all of the other cities progress, my grandchildren can continue our fine tradition.  Who wants to spend money on the future?  We can drive ourselves to Monster Truck competitions, tractor pulls, and the wresslin' matches.  Progress be damned.

I think most of these responses have been pretty clear that few people are anti-anything that costs money (save for like, Rory Diamond and his ilk). The point of contention has largely been about whether autonomous vehicles are the best and highest use of that money, and JTA hasn't proven that to be the case. It's one thing to plan ahead, it's another to propose being the first city in the country to put a new technology that questionably suits its needs or is fully realized into revenue service. We can want to invest in the future without obsessively chasing after something that few other cities have chosen to even consider testing. Even with how relatively untested people movers were in the 70s and 80s, they were in active service in other places before we built one. That isn't the case here. On top of that, choosing not to spend half a billion dollars on our own autonomous vehicles doesn't mean we can't be open to allowing them once Uber or Tesla or Amazon or Google fully realize the technology.

[Ken_FSU]

I don't think this thing is anywhere near 10 miles if the conceptual bridge across the St. Johns River isn't included in that number.

The article quotes the Bay Street extension from Hogan to the stadium as 3.2 miles - so it would seem they are counting both directions in the mileage. Maybe this explains the 10 miles.

Have they ever considered to run AV experiment down Bay Street and operating it separate from fooling around the the Skyway? After all, it is a demonstration project, moreso than something intended to meet the needs of a basic transit user. Might as well spend less on the demonstration and use the saved funds on transit and multimodal projects (hello....Emerald Trail system....) that bring a greater economic and quality of life benefit to a larger segment of the local population.

Honest question:

Is there anything about what's being proposed with U2C on Bay Street (or elsewhere) that can't be done better by simply spending $1 million on three mid-sized city buses (like the old Riverside Trolley) and having them loop up and down Bay with 3-5 minute headways?

Higher capacity, higher top speed, ability to operate in mixed traffic, a lot of existing stops already in place.

No clown app necessary, you just step onto the shuttle and call it a day.

Won't spur TOD, but neither will U2C, and it least buses won't break the bank for the next 30 years.

Just can't fathom why we'd spend 200x more on a system to the sports complex that can't even move people at scale or speed to events.