DIA wants the Landing to start with a park

[heights unknown]

Anyone hear ANYTHING on the scoring of the American Lions Project at the former Jacksonville Landing? The meeting was supposed to be yesterday and DIA was supposed to have scored the proposal and reached some type consensus yesterday; or...was an additional 105 days given to hash out the incentives and the tax issue? Please advise. Its eerily quiet concerning this project as something should have come out from that meeting yesterday unless the meeting was cancelled or postponed.

[Steve]

That WAS the scoring meeting, per se. The meeting was really to determine whether to move forward with negotiation with the winning bid. So to speak, American Lions came in 1st place so they voted on whether to negotiate with the "winner", which they chose to do so.

[heights unknown]

That WAS the scoring meeting, per se. The meeting was really to determine whether to move forward with negotiation with the winning bid. So to speak, American Lions came in 1st place so they voted on whether to negotiate with the "winner", which they chose to do so.

Thanks Steve. Maybe we'll hear something "news wise" in the next few days. There was an issue regarding payment of taxes, i.e., American Lions wanted to pay much less and DIA wanted them to pay much much more. Hopefully this will be off and running and we'll have the first new significant skyscraper to host intense cranes to build it in quite some time.

[heights unknown]

Well everyone; I was not looking for it, was surfing through Yahoo News and here's what I found. Looks like we MIGHT have a NEW SKYSCRAPER competing for the Jax Area Sky very soon unless a deep recession or foreign attack snuffs it out. Here's the link below; enjoy.

THE GRAND JEWEL OF DOWNTOWN GETS APPROVAL FOR NEGOTIATION

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/the-grand-jewel-of-downtown-gets-approval-for-negotiation/ar-AAXr2zx?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=6e8291cf663348db8615f156b3d4ed2f

[Ken_FSU]

$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.

[heights unknown]

$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.

Cool Beans. When do you think they'll start unearthing dirt? One more thing; if they build that 40 story residential high rise, they'd better ensure it is on stilts or raised up 2 or more floors from the ground. That area floods like nothing when a tropical storm or hurricane comes through.

[heights unknown]

$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.

Capital Improvement Project?

[tufsu1]

^ basically correct - CIP is Capital Improvements Plan

[fieldafm]

$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.

They've been value engineering their plans over the last few months, from what I've seen here and there.





If $25mm is the big spend, then all that P/W submitted isn't going to pencil out.... and the changes I've seen, certainly reflect this.

There'$50mm sitting in a special parks enhancement fund, that looks too tempting not to be ultimately swept into all of the money needed for Shipyards, Met Park and Lenny's Lawn once these things go out to bid and the cost to construct all greatly exceed what was budgeted.  Otherwise we're in store for some very basic-looking riverfront 'park-space'.

After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.

The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.

Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.

Setting aside the proposed building on the PAD site (which as envisioned, could probably top $80mm  by itself)... I think the Perkins & Will plan would be more in the range of $65mm-$85mm with value engineering, and with annual operating and maintenance costs in the $5mm range.  That $65-85mm figure doesn't include the unrealistic marsh creation.

Another very important point to make as far as timelines- COJ has just started down the legal process to take back Sisters City plaza from Mainstreet Capital Partners.  All of these plans are based on the City taking back possession of Sisters City Plaza and subsequently realigning Hogan/Water/Independent Drive in order to create a larger site (and potential PAD site).  It took COJ more than 4 years to go through the process of taking back the Jacksonville Landing East parking parcel from Sleiman (COJ lost that ruling, btw).  Courts currently have pretty sizeable backlogs due to the pandemic.  I think you are talking a minimum two years just to get a sense of whether that parcel is even in play.


For perspective, the price tag for all of the bulkhead work along the Northbank Riverwalk from CSX to Berkman is now well over $50mm.  Additional perspective comes from the recently completed St Pete Pier Park, which had a price tag of about $3.6mm/acre.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/

[thelakelander]

$25 million won't really get you close to a world class park or even the version of the Landing that was demolished. Perhaps, there's a vision of more investment coming down the line?

[heights unknown]

$25 million in next year's CIP for the park.

They've been value engineering their plans over the last few months, from what I've seen here and there.





If $25mm is the big spend, then all that P/W submitted isn't going to pencil out.... and the changes I've seen, certainly reflect this.

There'$50mm sitting in a special parks enhancement fund, that looks too tempting not to be ultimately swept into all of the money needed for Shipyards, Met Park and Lenny's Lawn once these things go out to bid and the cost to construct all greatly exceed what was budgeted.  Otherwise we're in store for some very basic-looking riverfront 'park-space'.

After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.

The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.

Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.

Setting aside the proposed building on the PAD site (which as envisioned, could probably top $80mm  by itself)... I think the Perkins & Will plan would be more in the range of $65mm-$85mm with value engineering, and with annual operating and maintenance costs in the $5mm range.  That $65-85mm figure doesn't include the unrealistic marsh creation.

Another very important point to make as far as timelines- COJ has just started down the legal process to take back Sisters City plaza from Mainstreet Capital Partners.  All of these plans are based on the City taking back possession of Sisters City Plaza and subsequently realigning Hogan/Water/Independent Drive in order to create a larger site (and potential PAD site).  It took COJ more than 4 years to go through the process of taking back the Jacksonville Landing East parking parcel from Sleiman (COJ lost that ruling, btw).  Courts currently have pretty sizeable backlogs due to the pandemic.  I think you are talking a minimum two years just to get a sense of whether that parcel is even in play.


For perspective, the price tag for all of the bulkhead work along the Northbank Riverwalk from CSX to Berkman is now well over $50mm.  Additional perspective comes from the recently completed St Pete Pier Park, which had a price tag of about $3.6mm/acre.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/

Oh oh; here we go again. Maybe there's some things behind the scenes that are happening we don't know about. Maybe they're value engineering, serious scale down of the park, to try and accommodate that scraper; from what I read, the City really wants that thing built.

[tufsu1]

well at least the firm that submitted the better design (IMO) on The Landing was awarded the Shipyards West park design

[heights unknown]

well at least the firm that submitted the better design (IMO) on The Landing was awarded the Shipyards West park design

All I can say about that is.......WOW.

[icarus]

well at least the firm that submitted the better design (IMO) on The Landing was awarded the Shipyards West park design

Their design was really out of touch even down to the boat slips.  The current is too strong for the layout at that point in the river.  But, I can state I would have liked to see more imaginative designs.

[tufsu1]

^ you may be confusing them with the 3rd design from Olin in Philadelphia