Lori Boyer floats alternate site for convention center

[Kerry]

Well obviously I'm not going to convince you, or probably anyone else for that matter, so I'll just wait until this latest idea goes nowhere.

[thelakelander]

Yeah I won't be convinced that a train station in LaVilla is the most viable convention center solution. That idea was implemented in 1985. Other than saving the building from demolition, it didn't stimulate any type of complementary development around it.

[Kerry]

Yeah I won't be convinced that a train station in LaVilla is the most viable convention center solution. That idea was implemented in 1985. Other than saving the building from demolition, it didn't stimulate any type of complementary development around it.

This isn't 1985 either.  In 1985 the US Savings and Loan crisis was just getting underway and the resulting rise in interest rates killed most development until 1991.  By then, the opportunity for Jax to capitalize on the Prime Osborne had vanished and by the mid'90s a whole new generation of convention centers had been launched (kicking off the convention center war).  However, and maybe more to your point, convention centers are NOT development drivers.  That is why the vast majority of cities do not locate them heart of their downtowns, but are usually on the periphery bounded on multiple sides by railroad tracks and interstate freeways.  It is also why adjacent hotel development requires substantial subsidies - as much as 50%.

[thelakelander]

^Now apply everything you just said to Jax from a site specific and historic context.

Yeah I won't be convinced that a train station in LaVilla is the most viable convention center solution. That idea was implemented in 1985. Other than saving the building from demolition, it didn't stimulate any type of complementary development around it.

This isn't 1985 either.  In 1985 the US Savings and Loan crisis was just getting underway and the resulting rise in interest rates killed most development until 1991.

Daytona's Ocean Center opened in 1985. Tampa's opened in 1990. Both have had a different outcome. What does the US Savings and Loan crisis have to do with the Prime Osborn that it didn't have to do with the Ocean Center?

By then, the opportunity for Jax to capitalize on the Prime Osborne had vanished and by the mid'90s a whole new generation of convention centers had been launched (kicking off the convention center war).

Just wondering why the Prime Osborn and not the other examples mentioned?

However, and maybe more to your point, convention centers are NOT development drivers.

There is no single use that 100% drives urban development. History has proven, clustering as many complementing uses together within a compact pedestrian scale setting is how you build revitalization momentum in an urban setting. Convention centers are nothing more than a tool that can be added within a compact setting to help stimulate activity and support adjacent businesses and hotels. The Ocean Center in Daytona Beach and Tampa's convention center are two good nearby examples.

That is why the vast majority of cities do not locate them heart of their downtowns, but are usually on the periphery bounded on multiple sides by railroad tracks and interstate freeways.

Depends on the context and size of the center. We're not talking about a large center with a million square feet of exhibition space like Orlando-Orange County, Chicago or Vegas. This is Jax we're talking about. The exhibition hall we have now at the Prime Osborn is only 78,500 square feet. Huntsville, AL has larger facilities. Nevertheless, the Hyatt and former City Hall Annex site is on the historic edge of downtown, not that it matters much. The Hart Bridge ramps end a block north and before the 1960s, the site was full of warehouses, wharfs and railroad tracks.

As for Daytona, the Ocean Center is dead slap in the middle of it's tourism epicenter. Expanded and remodelded a decade ago, it has a 93,000 square foot exhibition hall and is adacent to the Hyatt's Adams Mark counterpart, the 742-room Hilton Daytona Beach.

It is also why adjacent hotel development requires substantial subsidies - as much as 50%.

The Hyatt, our convention center hotel, was heavily subsidized. IMO, it doesn't make sense to subsidize another. This isn't Chicago. It's Jax.

[Kerry]

The Ocean Center was renovated in 2009 at a cost of almost $85 million.  Another $3 million was spent on the grand entrance, and a $15 million upgrade started late last year.

The Tampa Convention Center didn't hit its stride until the Marriott Waterside was built across the street around 2002.

How much has Jax spent on the PO since it opened?

[thelakelander]

You'll have to look up the cost of the Prime Osborn. I'm not sure where that will take you, other than using it as a baseline of how expensive it will get to upgrade it and subsidize the creation of hotels, restaurants, shops, attractions, etc. immediately around (at the expense of every existing business already present in the DT core) it to make it competive with more centralized centers of similar size.

However, the Ocean Center example further proves my point. Before the 2009 expansion, the Ocean Center was only 60,000 square feet of exhibit space with 18 breakout rooms. Now it's the 5th largest convention center in Florida with 93,028 square feet of exhibition space, a 14,000 square foot ballroom, a 42,146 square feet arena, and 32 breakout meeting rooms equaling 32,000 square feet. It has a total of 205,000 square feet.

$85 million, 100% publicly funded (we have a mixed-use P3 opportunity) is a lot cheaper than the $1.2 billion proposal for a completely new convention center that was rejected last year. The Hyatt already has a total of 116,000 square feet of meeting space. That includes a 28,000 square foot grand ballroom and 41 meeting rooms overlooking the river. The majority of what the Ocean Center added on isn't needed at the Hyatt because it already has more meeting rooms and a larger grand ballroom. The Hyatt also already has a larger ballroom and more meeting rooms than the Prime Osborn. What it doesn't have is an exhibition hall. Put an exhibition hall there, close the Prime Osborn and turn the Jacksonville Terminal into something else.

By comparison, the Barnett and Laura Street Trio were underestimated to cost $90 million, Spandrel's original proposal was estimated to cost $136 million, and First Baptist wants to do a welcome center and renovate for $30 million. If Jax can resolve its convention center issue for a few decades for under $100 million that's seriously worth exploring.

[thelakelander]

The Tampa Convention Center didn't hit its stride until the Marriott Waterside was built across the street around 2002.

Perhaps that's the DT Jax/Hyatt story, just in reverse since we already have nearly 1,000 hotel rooms and more on the way nearby. The Hyatt not hitting its stride until an exhibition hall, allowing it to host larger conventions, is built next to it.

[Kerry]

Jax is NOT going to be able to build any convention center that will attract national conventions for under $100 million.  There are far too many better options out there.  A convention center to compete with Daytona and Mobile will run about $200 million.  Anything more than that and we are throwing money away.  We'll probably need to kick in another $40 million for a 350 room adjacent convention hotel.

[thelakelander]

Jax should worry about keeping local, regional and existing conventions. A larger exhibition hall will compete with Daytona. No need to kick in more money for hotels before taking advantage of what we're already subsidizing.

[marcuscnelson]

Can you hear that, guys? Five months and a complete lack of progress?