Help plan the Duval County Courthouse Plaza

[thelakelander]

Perhaps Nashville didn't get the message....











Overall the demands are pretty archaic and omit true community involvement and urban planning. Trees and benches are a security risk but a street running right past the front door aren't? That simply makes no sense. If blocking of security cameras is a concern, then the next step would be to identify those view corridors and places where you can add foliage that don't do that. Or select trees with narrow trunks that don't allow people to hide behind them. If fountains and water features are a concern because we don't want to maintain them, then perhaps we need a "Friends of" type non-profit to maintain and program the space? Plus, why are we still talking about this Monroe Street thing. What self serving party is actually still pushing for that thing? We certainly don't need it from a traffic movement perspective. Overall, I just see a lot of missed opportunity, largely driven by concerns that should not drive the vision, long term design and experience.

[jaxlongtimer]

Well, this project just took a fantastically ridiculous turn:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/courthouse-public-art-project-takes-step-forward

• No trees may be planted.

• No water features.

• No long-term seating.

• The landscape must be easily maintained using only lawnmowers, leaf blowers and pressure washing.

• The site plan must allow for possible future restoration of Monroe Street between Pearl and Julia streets, along Adams Street and the south side of the courthouse.

Looks like the Feds didn't get the memo either and the building here incorporated all the latest security designs following Oklahoma City.


https://www.alucobondusa.com/blog/jacksonville-courthouse/#.XuAALqZ7mUk

If they truly cared about Monroe Street, they shouldn't have built the courthouse the way they did in the first place.  Further, if they restore Monroe, with it running up against the face of the building, it would likely create a lot more security issues than the ones they are concerned about here.

Really, trees are an issue?  Guess that also means they won't line a restored Monroe St. either?

Regarding seating, many government buildings have steps leading up to them (think Jax Federal Courthouse pictured above, the US Capitol, US Supreme Court, etc.).  Can't people sit on the steps or sidewalls of them if they really want to find a seat?  Hemming Plaza has seats and it's at the front doors to City Hall.  Someone could also sit in their car in the meter spaces in front of the Courthouse.  That's even worse as there is no telling what could be concealed in a car.

I guess to save on maintenance, these same rules will be applied to all of Curry's demolition lawns too?  Will make for some pretty drab parks.  Doing things on the cheap... that's the Jacksonville way?

[Tacachale]

This is nuts. This type of thinking is why Downtown Jax is the way it is and most of our peers are not.

[Peter Griffin]

This is nuts. This type of thinking is why Downtown Jax is the way it is and most of our peers are not.

Oh, come on. This is a public art installation in front of a courthouse several blocks away from the attractive businesses of Downtown, not a courtyard fronted by cafe's and bars. Even the Federal courthouse, which is right next to Hemming Plaza and several actual cafe's and restaurants, doesn't get used as some sort of gathering place.

[thelakelander]

^This was actually intended to be a center piece of an area surrounded by shops, cafe's, businesses, etc. That was one of the main reasons for building the courthouse in this particular location in the first place. Regardless of what it is, it is pretty dumb to not have any trees on any part of the property or benches for people to sit, claim these as security risks but then want to construct a public street right past the front door.

[fieldafm]

This is nuts. This type of thinking is why Downtown Jax is the way it is and most of our peers are not.

Oh, come on. This is a public art installation in front of a courthouse several blocks away from the attractive businesses of Downtown, not a courtyard fronted by cafe's and bars. Even the Federal courthouse, which is right next to Hemming Plaza and several actual cafe's and restaurants, doesn't get used as some sort of gathering place.

If you just viewed the current proposal in a vacuum, then I can see how you reach that conclusion.

However, the planning of the Courthouse goes back about two decades. It was sold as the centerpiece that would kickstart development in and around LaVilla. The City still owns several parcels surrounding the Courthouse, which were bought as a speculative play to later be flipped to private developers. About half of those parcels remain empty today, and the other half is where JEA will be building a new headquarters building (in effect, no private development has occurred on those sites).

The site was in fact supposed to feature 'a courtyard fronted by cafe's and bars'.

The planning of a square that integrates successfully into complementary land uses goes back to around 2005/2006 when the current, sprawling, super-block-style design was selected...

in 2008 when the Peyton administration, in the midst of spiraling cost overruns sought alternative site designs (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jan-duval-county-courthouse-how-much-is-too-much), see also (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-urban-infill-a-courthouse-square-for-jacksonville) and see (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jun-duval-county-courthouse-still-stumbling-in-the-dark)... 

in 2011 when various members of this message board worked hand in hand with JEDC officials to successfully lobby against the construction of what would become a six-lane roadway fronting the courthouse (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jan-courthouse-asphalt-or-green-space-the-choice-is-yours) and (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-oct-rebuild-monroe-street-why-bother)...   

and from 2012-2014 when public officials from judges, project managers (Sam Mousa) and City Councilman tried 're-allocating' the public art set-aside to pay for everything from construction cost overruns, paintings of judges to be hung inside the Courthouse, brass light holders for the State's Attorneys office, last minute upgrades to a fire alarm system that didn't function (fire marshal wouldn't sign off on the occupancy certificate until that was fixed), landscaping for Metro Park and roadway construction.  Those efforts were stopped by various staff and board members of the Cultural Council and by then-Councilman Crescimbeni (who is now working for DIA, and is apparently now wanting for Monroe Street to be rebuilt).


This is typical of Downtown Jacksonville.  Dumb plans, massive amounts of money being spent in the absolute wrong ways, monkey business throughout the process, and spending decades flip-flopping around and not following through with plans... and never, ever adhering to the advice of qualified design professionals or from any real estate professional that doesn't directly financially benefit from a golden goose from the government. 

I mean, this roadway construction argument has been going on for more then a DECADE, with still no end in sight.

The City of Jacksonville is an absolute horrible landlord, a consistently failing real estate developer and an even worse property manager. 

[thelakelander]

This was a conceptual plan by the JEDC in 2012. It included trees:

[thelakelander]

The City of Jacksonville is an absolute horrible landlord, a consistently failing real estate developer and an even worse property manager.

This (and not the real estate market) is and has been downtown's largest revitalization obstacle. If this and just about everything else will naturally fall in line.

[thelakelander]

Evidently Broward County missed the boat. Here's the public space planned at the Broward County Courthouse that's currently under construction in DT Fort Lauderdale:





http://www.cartayaandassociates.com/projects/broward-county-garage/

[vicupstate]

I understand the sentiment to put in trees, shrubs, benches and the like, but in order to be in keeping with the remainder of the DT landscape, wouldn't desolate and empty be more consistent?  I mean we are always saying we need to stop trying to look just like South Florida. 

Some scabby concrete chunks mixed in with the grass would be appropriate, though.  Perhaps some could be relocated from other parcels in LaVilla? 

[Steve]

Trees could block the view for surveillance cameras and long-term seating could make it possible for someone to wait to confront someone else entering or leaving the courthouse, a victim of domestic violence, for example, he said.

Permanent seating makes it easier to wait to confront someone!? So if I was hellbent on confronting someone I'd come there, realize there's no seating, then because of that make a better choice!?

Actually, I get it. Standing around can be tiring, and it might give a chance for someone to change their mind. And, if someone is standing around outside stewing to themselves it might give security time to come out and ask what's going on.

Obviously, if someone is genuinely hellbent on doing that, then nothing will stop them, but there's a lot of space before that point where intervention might be possible.

So they can wait inside the Air Conditioned Courthouse. There are places to sit all over that building.

[marcuscnelson]

I seem to stand corrected. It appears that no one actually follows that logic anywhere else with a courthouse, and some really impressive public spaces have been built around them.

[heights unknown]

Well, this project just took a fantastically ridiculous turn:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/courthouse-public-art-project-takes-step-forward

• No trees may be planted.

• No water features.

• No long-term seating.

• The landscape must be easily maintained using only lawnmowers, leaf blowers and pressure washing.

• The site plan must allow for possible future restoration of Monroe Street between Pearl and Julia streets, along Adams Street and the south side of the courthouse.

THAT sucks!

[Papa33]

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/cultural-council-postpones-decision-on-courthouse-art-project

[thelakelander]

These are silly restrictions that should definitely be pushed back on before any money is spent. There should be compromises that can be made that achieves the objectives of multiple perspectives. For example, there are already trees paralleling sidewalks along Adams, Pearl and Broad. Like the Nashville courthouse, if security is a concern, one compromise could be to identify areas on the perimeter of the space where certain types of trees could be planted. If COJ doesn't want to maintain anything other than grass, there should be opportunities for non profits, corporations, volunteer groups, etc. to maintain certain elements. Memorial Park in Riverside and Balis Park in San Marco are good example of this.