Autonomous shuttle service launches in Orlando

[itsfantastic1]

Amtrak is determined to kill the remaining 15 long-distance routes and shift to a collection of disconnected short haul lines. It is unknown if Congress under either party will allow such wholesale slaughter. In any case with just a slight effort we might convince them to terminate the NYC-Savannah 'Palmetto'' in downtown Jacksonville. Otherwise we actually sit on several short distance corridors we could sell to Amtrak in a City/State/Amtrak cooperative venture to test their short-haul theory here. JAX-Savannah-Atlanta, JAX-Valdosta-Macon-Atlanta (Virgin is likely eyeing this route), JAX-Orlando-Tampa, JAX-Ocala-Villages-Tampa, JAX-Daytona-West Palm-Miami.

Ock, why do you think Virgin is more interested in the JAX-Valdosta-Macon-Atlanta. I see Norfolk Southern has the track for that route, would that be who Virgin would have to contract with and they'd be a more likely candidate to run high-speed passenger rail than CSX? Or is there some other reason?

My uneducated opinion would be that a JAX-Savannah-Atlanta or even JAX-Savannah-Macon-Atlanta route would be a better route choice due to the tourist draw and Savannah/Macon are much larger cities than Valdosta.

[tufsu1]

^ Nat Ford worked at MUNI and was responsible for transit services only within the City of San Francisco. In pure population figures, Ock is correct - Jax is roughly 2x larger than SF

City of San Francisco: ~880,000 (daytime population is ~950,000)
City of Jacksonville: ~903,000

The difference is SF is 47 sq miles and Jax is 875 sq miles.  Put that in perspective, image the entire population of Jax living within 4 miles of the Main St Bridge.  When it comes to mass transit, population density is everything.  The area of highest density in metro-Jax is Orange Park.  Let that sink in.

ok I was wrong about Jax being twice the size...was thinking SF was closer to 500k pop. And I did note that it was only raw population - and did not consider density or any other factor - and yes, I realize that is a VERY flawed way of looking at things

[Kerry]

^ Nat Ford worked at MUNI and was responsible for transit services only within the City of San Francisco. In pure population figures, Ock is correct - Jax is roughly 2x larger than SF

City of San Francisco: ~880,000 (daytime population is ~950,000)
City of Jacksonville: ~903,000

The difference is SF is 47 sq miles and Jax is 875 sq miles.  Put that in perspective, image the entire population of Jax living within 4 miles of the Main St Bridge.  When it comes to mass transit, population density is everything.  The area of highest density in metro-Jax is Orange Park.  Let that sink in.

ok I was wrong about Jax being twice the size...was thinking SF was closer to 500k pop. And I did note that it was only raw population - and did not consider density or any other factor - and yes, I realize that is a VERY flawed way of looking at things

No worries - just wanting to keep things accurate for the discussion.  I take a lot of heat on this site but I probably want Jax to be a better urban environment than anyone else participating here.

I just don't believe most people understand how deep the hole is that Jax is starting from.  Take the recent article about Denver's Union Rail Station.  Never in a million years could Jax do anything close to that.  It cost $500 million and we don't have $500 million - especially when every extra penny we have is already going to keep the Jags afloat.

We need to set our sights much much lower and discuss/propose/dream about civic projects that are much more realistic.  There are plenty of railroad station renovation projects that Jax could use as a model which don't cost near as much, although we do have the unique disadvantage that oyr train station is actually being used as a convention center.  It would be easier if it was abandoned.

[thelakelander]

^Shoot for less and you'll end up with less. Just look at the Vestcor proposal for townhomes across the street from the JRTC. Yeah, it's great to have infill development but we're blowing the opportunity for commercial/retail space along Forsyth and Lee, simply because Vestcor isn't a retail developer and doesn't want to be bothered with it. These are the little types of issues and challenges that can dramatically alter a site's sense of place and vitality over the course of time.

So just because Denver Union Station cost $500 million and we don't have that much money does not mean it is an example that should be tossed aside. For example, a good chunk of the price likely went for the construction of an underground bus terminal, which their climate conditions demand. The JRTC also will have a bus terminal but it won't be underground, meaning it's a hell of a lot cheaper. Denver also has a number of LRT lines, which play into their number.....something Jax isn't even planning. 

The moral of the story for the Denver comparison is focusing on clustering the compatible uses within a pedestrian scale compact setting moreso than the cost it took to construct. Look less at the overall price and look more at how a mix of uses are intertwined within and immediately adjacent to the transportation center. By the same token, check out the surrounding TOD....how it is designed, embraces the sidewalks, is mixed-use, higher density, etc. It doesn't take money to design and permit infill in a more urban and pedestrian friendly fashion. It does take a bit of vision though.

[Kerry]

There are literally dozens and dozens of better examples than Denver that Jax could actually attain.  You can't build urbanism to a finished state the way sprawl is.  It has to grow from tiny seeds.  Bringing up something like Denver Station is no different than all the other pie in the sky silver bullets' this city focuses on.  Denver didn't start with Union Station, it was the result of years and years of incremental urbanism that eventually made Union Station possible.  We can't jump right to the end and expect the same results.  We have to go through the long process of urbanizing just like all the places we want to emulate did.  There aren't any short cuts.

As for Vestcor, the City hasn't even bothered to define where we want retail around downtown.  No housing studies, no retail studies, no urbanism plan, no nothing.  The fact anything gets built downtown is a miracle in and of itself.

On edit - now that there is a Denver Union Station thread can these posts be moved there?

[thelakelander]

I agree there are examples all over the place but we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the Denver Station. Denver is a prefect example of using a large turn of the century union terminal as a part of a new multimodal transportation hub built around it and then using the former rail yards for infill TOD.

[Kerry]

I agree there are examples all over the place but we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the Denver Station. Denver is a prefect example of using a large turn of the century union terminal as a part of a new multimodal transportation hub built around it and then using the former rail yards for infill TOD.

We don't even know if the area around the train station is where the City should be focusing development efforts right now.  As you pointed out awhile back, downtown Jax has more land area than downtown Miami with a tiny fraction of the development.  It is like the Jags planning their Super Bowl Victory parade route and only having 14 players on the roster and no head coach.  The cart is so far before the horse as to not even be in the realm of possibility.

[thelakelander]

We don't even know if the area around the train station is where the City should be focusing development efforts right now.

Who said anything about focusing development efforts around the train station (or even committing money on it) to the point where it takes away from other priorities? Planning for the entire city should happen simultaneously. We may be on two different wavelengths in our thinking.

Regarding DT Jax's limits, I've been meaning to find a map of what was considered downtown's boundaries before the annexation of LaVilla, the Sports District and Brooklyn. Thanks for the reminder!